Are humans trapped in a system?

gctest50

Dry Rain wrote: »

Back onto my brief example of the miner. We wouldn't need to rely on miners if some of us became miners ourselves but we can't do that without the government breathing down our necks in some way.

thats what did happen - some of us did become miners

Greentopia

diomed wrote: »

Order the DVD €15 :roll eyes:

Yes, because you see the people who have made that video-the director, producer editor and so on expect to get paid even if Heidi doesn't. Is that a surprise to you?

SpaceTime

Humans are a social species though. We seem to have evolved to create societies. That's part of our evolutionary success story.

We've freedom, but we're not capable of surviving outside the society. Take us out of it and we just die due to inability to feed, cloth and house ourselves or we go insane due to lack of contact with other humans.

You can't really compare humans to non social or even loosely social species.

In the big scheme of things we're very unusual for mammals as we create complex organisational systems to function. The only other species that seem to do that on a grand scale are certain insects, all of which are related to each other :
In an a group called Hymenoptera.

The social organisation thing has cropped up a few times evolutionarily and quite separately in different species but it's a very effective solution to evolutionary success.

The fact that you're a member of a highly advanced social social species is what gave you the linguistic and symbolic processing ability to contemplate your own existence!

We're just a big messy, argumentative, slightly bonkers version of the Borg collective or a bee colony really.

Whatever it is about life, it tends to organise itself as it evolves : single cell organisms to multicellular organisms to highly comped multicellular organisms.

It would seem the same solutions work as multi individual coroprative systems too that keep evolving towards something very sophisticated.

If life is present elsewhere and isn't just a freak occurrence here on Earth, it's quite likely other species may have gone the same or similar path and that there are advanced societies out there too.

You might as well enjoy the protection and use the extremely complex power being part of society gives you though.

If it weren't for human society and focus on communication and connection, none of the technology used to post your comment would exist and you'd be freaking out being chased around by some large cat or something while trying to catch or find your own dinner.

I prefer the supermarket myself

blatantrereg

Greentopia wrote: »

Social anarchy has worked in the past-Spain.

"It will never work because of the greed of humans" is a common argument used against left-libertarianism and it's a pernicious lie told to us that we seem to accept readily without really analysing it.

Fortunately and to save me time explaining why I think this is a pernicious lie and other common arguments against this philosophy this guy has done it for me:

It worked for about five minutes during the Spanish Civil War in specific regions. It is documented by Orwell in Homage to Catalonia, as he fought for the socialists in the Civil War as part of the Anarchist party. However it's also documented that the Communist Party aka the Soviet Foreign agency started hoovering up any potential opposition which included the anarchists. Orwell fled and apparently appeared on Hemingway's doorstep fearful for his life and looking for a weapon.

kneemos

Dry Rain wrote: »

Back onto my brief example of the miner. We wouldn't need to rely on miners if some of us became miners ourselves but we can't do that without the government breathing down our necks in some way.

Because we have health and safety,planning,waste disposal,transport management,noise restrictions etc...all good things for the workers and the local environment.

SpaceTime

We're not trapped in a system - we *are* the system.

jimmycrackcorm

Dry Rain wrote:

He took resources from the earth. He gave them to someone else.

Dry Rain wrote:

To answer your question, he goes to a farmer and asks for food. Or maybe he is also a farmer? Or maybe he hunts a cow or chicken, like nature intended.

What do all the people living in flats and adornments in our cities do? Keep a few chooks on the balcony?

Massimo Cassagrande

Dry Rain wrote: »

He took resources from the earth. He gave them to someone else.

To answer your question, he goes to a farmer and asks for food. Or maybe he is also a farmer? Or maybe he hunts a cow or chicken, like nature intended.

That could get messy in areas like D4. Or Tallaght.

Greentopia

blatantrereg wrote: »

It worked for about five minutes during the Spanish Civil War in specific regions. It is documented by Orwell in Homage to Catalonia, as he fought for the socialists in the Civil War as part of the Anarchist party. However it's also documented that the Communist Party aka the Soviet Foreign agency started hoovering up any potential opposition which included the anarchists. Orwell fled and apparently appeared on Hemingway's doorstep fearful for his life and looking for a weapon.

Yes, it's a favourite book of mine and Orwell is my favourite author. He fought with the POUM communists, not the anarchists... a fact he later regretted as he was recovering from his gun shot wounds back in England.

A bit more than 5 minutes, it lasted long enough to show it was not only possible but worked very well with increased productivity under the collectivised workers farms and anarcho-syndicalist way industry was organised in Catalonia with around 7 million people living under this philosophy in Spain at the time.

It ultimately failed not because of any inherent failings in anarchy as a way of organising society or because of 'human nature', it failed because of forces from within and without (civil war in the country and Franco's nationalists, communists backed by Russia, opposition by capitalist countries to it and so on).

Buona Fortuna

Hey OP, go onto UTube.

There's films of cats, people falling over and people in Russia driving dangerously.

biko

UTube, is that like a younger version of Youtube?

coffee_cake

People shouldn't be miners except the ones that do should be miners so they don't rely on anyone else because miners

lol
:pac:

boobar

Dry Rain wrote: »

He took resources from the earth. He gave them to someone else.

To answer your question, he goes to a farmer and asks for food. Or maybe he is also a farmer? Or maybe he hunts a cow or chicken, like nature intended.

I don't think the farmers will be too happy if miners show up and start "hunting" their cows and chickens, like "nature intended".

Any other suggestions?

Mark Tapley

The Backwards Man wrote: »

We're caught in a trap

It's a rat trap, OP, but you're already caught.

The Corinthian

Dry Rain wrote: »

Or maybe he hunts a cow or chicken, like nature intended.

Nature never intended cows or chickens. We created (bred and domesticated) them.

Jim79

OP
u say u r a conservative but you espouse a libertarian or anarchist way of living. u need to do a little more research

defrule

I remember a documentary I watched by Michio Kaku and in that video they explore the possibilities of nano-technology and 3D printing. The idea is that with advanced enough technology, standard of living can be made comfortably high.

It did make me think about manufacture because we do waste a lot in our current production. Imagine if we can make precisely what we need. Instead of a company making 500'00' units, selling 450'000 and 50'000 unsold, picture a system that could print according to demand.

Dimithy

Dry Rain wrote: »

Well maybe people should have spent more time developing condoms and not developing dirty videos and putting them on the internet.

This is the most bizarre post of the thread. And that's saying something.

The_Valeyard

I once stole a pornographic book that was printed in Braille. I used to rub the dirty parts

-Bananas

the evasion_kid

Get your hands on a copy of a book called "evasion" op ....drop out of the system maannn

Dry Rain

What do the following things have in common?

Water and electricity.

They're both natural resources.

These water charges are new, right? People protest them, but not electricity bills. Sure, someone had to find a way to harness electricity but it's still a natural resource.

If we are to have a more perfect world, we would need to start off with selecting one of these options:

A: Completely remove governments

B: Governments should make sure that everyone has access to basic needs without payment. Food, water, shelter and electricity. (Ok, maybe electricity isn't NECESSARY for survival but come on.)

Buona Fortuna

Dry Rain wrote: »

What do the following things have in common?

Water and electricity.

They're both natural resources.

These water charges are new, right? People protest them, but not electricity bills. Sure, someone had to find a way to harness electricity but it's still a natural resource.

If we are to have a more perfect world, we would need to start off with selecting one of these options:

A: Completely remove governments

B: Governments should make sure that everyone has access to basic needs without payment. Food, water, shelter and electricity. (Ok, maybe electricity isn't NECESSARY for survival but come on.)

I'd go for "B" if you add in 3 or 4 pints a day and maybe a couple of lines of Charlie at the weekends.

kylith

While 'electricity' is a natural thing the electricity we use is not, it is manufactured. They don't hang around waiting for lightning to strike so they can bottle it; they make the electricity, not harness it.

SpaceTime

Petrol is a natural thing.

iPhones are also made out of 100% atoms found in nature.

I demand free iPhones and petrol!

Dry Rain

SpaceTime wrote: »

Petrol is a natural thing.

iPhones are also made out of 100% atoms found in nature.

I demand free iPhones and petrol!

Needs = Free

Wants = Paid for.

That's my opinion. Just think about it. It would make life easier for everyone.

In response to posts about how money and all that has brought us on over the last few hundred years with all the inventions etc. It might be true that the way things were done for the last few centuries helped us develop that bit better, I think it's time to give everything up and only work on our needs. e.g. we should continue to work on healthcare and not gaming PCs with "stunning" HD graphics.

NotCominBack

Dimithy wrote: »

This is the most bizarre post of the thread. And that's saying something.

To find a winner of "most bizarre post" of this thread would actually be some achievement - and its only 4 pages in

Kenny Bania

Dry Rain wrote: »

He took resources from the earth. He gave them to someone else.

Then why do you need a miner? Go get your own resources from the Earth fi you don;t want to pay someone for doing the work for you. You're very confused - you're trying to be all deep, but you don't seem to actually have any idea what you want - your subsequent posts have made that clear. We've always had communities - we've always had barter - but money is better than barter because it's not restricted.

If you want to live off the grid, go do it - lots of people already do. Get your bike & hit the road. Sleep on the earth - and use the Earth for resources as you say. I'm just confused as to what's stopping you exactly? People do this already - it's doable.

Thespoofer

Imagine all the people..

smurgen

No you're certainly not mad.there's lots of people like that.i remember watching a louis theroux about some area in America where people are trying to live without government interference and what not.they'd actually patrol at night for state troupers and ask them to leave if they came across them.some people really don't want any interference in their lives.

cml387

Actually, the OP may have a point somewhere in there.
An entire economy seems to have been built out of the mobile phone. What was once a handy means of contacting people has now turned into a self replicating pointless rush to either get the latest iPhone or spend an increasingly large amount of money paying for meaningless apps which have no intrinsic worth other than some kind of instant gratification.
Human ingenuity, which used to be engaged in worthwhile research,is now devoted to extracting money for pointless endeavour.

There are other examples but, but why do people feel the need to spend upwards of 50 euro a month to update their facebook page explaining what it is their eating right now.

No fan of the anarchists in our midst but you do have to ask, have we willingly bought into a stupid way of life?