Armageddon for Dublin City Businesses if people can't drive their cars into city

Crumbs868

lxflyer wrote: »

Are there no public transport options that you can avail of or is it a case of that you don't want to?

Or is it the case that people like him will go elsewhere (Dundrum / Liffey valley etc)?

LXFlyer

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Or is it the case that people like him will go elsewhere (Dundrum / Liffey valley etc)?

Well there seems to be a view from some people that any project aimed at improving our public bus service, which these measures are primarily aimed at, are bad. Yet in most cases the same people then complain about the bus service being unreliable.

There are still going to be a large number of city centre car parks readily and easily accessible despite the proposed changes.

It just sounds like people moaning for the sake of it to be honest.

Crumbs868

lxflyer wrote: »

Well there seems to be a view from some people that any project aimed at improving our public bus service, which these measures are primarily aimed at, are bad. Yet in most cases the same people then complain about the bus service being unreliable.

There are still going to be a large number of city centre car parks readily and easily accessible despite the proposed changes.

It just sounds like people moaning for the sake of it to be honest.

My point is that you are very adamant that no losses will occur and anyone who raises the valid point that losses will occur are wrong.

Who knows maybe these losses will be replaced by new visitors but there is definitely a section of people who will go somewhere else because of this.

LXFlyer

Crumbs868 wrote: »

My point is that you are very adamant that no losses will occur and anyone who raises the valid point that losses will occur are wrong.

Who knows maybe these losses will be replaced by new visitors but there is definitely a section of people who will go somewhere else because of this.

Actually I never made any comment upon whether there would be losses or not. What I said was that there would still be plenty of options open to anyone who wants to drive into the city and park there - that is undeniable, from whatever direction they are coming from. OK, some car parks may have different access routes, but to suggest that there won't be city centre parking options available, and that is specifically what I was commenting upon, is nonsense.

There probably are people who won't go in to town anymore as a result of the changes - but that is down to their own narrow view of wanting to go a specific route around O'Connell Bridge and College Green despite there being plenty of alternatives. I'd have to say you would have to be pretty narrow-minded to take that viewpoint.

I do not believe that closing College Green to general traffic is going to result in total mayhem - that much is clear from the fact that it is closed now all day long.

I will reserve judgement (and I've said this here since the plans were released first) about the plans for Burgh Quay and Bachelor's Walk - DCC and the NTA will need to come up with detailed alternative routes for those streets that does not cause massive congestion elsewhere. But it is important to note that they do not form the main thrust of the plan (they are only put forward for discussion). The main thrust is closing College Green to private cars and I will certainly not shirk from supporting that.

cdebru

Crumbs868 wrote: »

My point is that you are very adamant that no losses will occur and anyone who raises the valid point that losses will occur are wrong.

Who knows maybe these losses will be replaced by new visitors but there is definitely a section of people who will go somewhere else because of this.

It seems to me that little or no emphasis is given to possible losses from doing nothing, how many people will go elsewhere because private cars and public transport are gridlocked

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

It seems to me that little or no emphasis is given to possible losses from doing nothing, how many people will go elsewhere because private cars and public transport are gridlocked

With trams running through College Green every 3 minutes in either direction, it simply is impossible to retain the status quo at that location. Otherwise our public transport bus network will descend into total chaos and become unworkable.

dubscottie

bk wrote: »

My experience of Dublin Bus is nice, clean, comfortable modern buses, that are well maintained with zero gratify, etc. and where most passengers quietly sit there listening to music or play with their smart phones. Really, for the most part it is all very quiet and civil these days.

People sitting to music at full blast on the headphones so everyone can here, or have smart phones with the keypad sounds on, so every text they send is like Morse code. Not quiet at all. Its a nightmare. Add to that the ones that have a cold and sit next/behind you coughing and sniffing.

I don't know what Dublin Bus you get. There is always someone on the bus that gets on your tits.

But if you are one of the headphone wearing, smartphone users then you are not aware of it I suppose.

syklops

lxflyer wrote: »

I find it difficult to believe that you can't switch to a bus/LUAS/Rail somewhere?

.

Wow. Can, worms, everywhere.

In my neck of the woods getting from a Luas to a Dart is not easy.

ezra_pound

Crumbs868 wrote: »

My point is that you are very adamant that no losses will occur and anyone who raises the valid point that losses will occur are wrong.

Who knows maybe these losses will be replaced by new visitors but there is definitely a section of people who will go somewhere else because of this.

I don't know if you realise this, but the whole reason for the new changes is to INCREASE the amount of people that the city can let into the city centre. If SOME people choose to go elsewhere, fine. But this plan increases the transport capacity of the city.

LXFlyer

syklops wrote: »

Wow. Can, worms, everywhere.

In my neck of the woods getting from a Luas to a Dart is not easy.

I didn't ask about switching from LUAS to DART.

I was asking about switching from a car to any one of a bus, LUAS or DART/Suburban Rail when travelling on a radial route to the city.

ongarboy

Haven't read entire thread but I read another article yesterday about how Grafton St retailers fought tooth and nail in the 1970s against the pedestrianization of that street, stating their businesses would die and it got delayed until about 1982 as a result. We've all witnessed how that has become the busiest shopping street in the country since. Who's to say the neighbouring streets can't acquire the same spinoff benefits from pedestrianisation.

I see the main shopping precincts in cities I've visited in recent years (Madrid, Copenhagen, Prague, Amsterdam) and they all have significant pedestrianized central areas (not just one core street) that combine tourism and shopping facilities. I would love to see the pedestrianisation extended to College Green, Suffolk, Exchequer, Clarendon and South William Streets. What an amazing plaza we could have between Trinity and the historic BOI building that could become the new pedestrian and tourist hub of the city. I would say many people passing through that area don't get the opportunity to appreciate the surroundings as they are focusing on pedestrian lights and blocking their mouths to exhaust fumes.

cgcsb

dubscottie wrote: »

People sitting to music at full blast on the headphones so everyone can here, or have smart phones with the keypad sounds on, so every text they send is like Morse code. Not quiet at all. Its a nightmare. Add to that the ones that have a cold and sit next/behind you coughing and sniffing.

I don't know what Dublin Bus you get. There is always someone on the bus that gets on your tits.

But if you are one of the headphone wearing, smartphone users then you are not aware of it I suppose.

if that's a problem for you then surely being in public in general is a problem?

bk

ongarboy wrote: »

Haven't read entire thread but I read another article yesterday about how Grafton St retailers fought tooth and nail in the 1970s against the pedestrianization of that street, stating their businesses would die and it got delayed until about 1982 as a result. We've all witnessed how that has become the busiest shopping street in the country since. Who's to say the neighbouring streets can't acquire the same spinoff benefits from pedestrianisation.

I think many of the more progressive retailers are well aware of the opportunities and are preparing for it.

Just look at the massive new H&M store and Abercrombie and Fitch on College Green. I'm pretty certain they can't wait for College Green to be pedestrianised and likely picked those locations knowing perfectly well that it will eventually.

To be honest I think most retailers are well aware that pedestrianisation has a positive effect on their business. Remember this report was issued by the car parks association, not a retailers association.

While one or two retailers with their own car parks (Arnotts, Brown Thomas) have a vested interest, I think you will find that the majority think otherwise.

syklops

lxflyer wrote: »

I didn't ask about switching from LUAS to DART.

I was asking about switching from a car to any one of a bus, LUAS or DART/Suburban Rail when travelling on a radial route to the city.

Oh well in that specific case scenario sure, but you still need a car.

LXFlyer

syklops wrote: »

Oh well in that specific case scenario sure, but you still need a car.

Actually you don't need a car - I manage to get around perfectly well without one, and have done all of my life.

It boils down to personal circumstances and choice. Having a car can be necessary in certain circumstances.

syklops

lxflyer wrote: »

Actually you don't need a car - I manage to get around perfectly well without one, and have done all of my life.

It boils down to personal circumstances and choice. Having a car can be necessary in certain circumstances.

Where do you live? You seem to get perfect Dublin Bus service every time and can easily access DART, Luas and bus, without having to walk long distances in between.

LXFlyer

syklops wrote: »

Where do you live? You seem to get perfect Dublin Bus service every time and can easily access DART, Luas and bus, without having to walk long distances in between.

You must be spending an awful lot of time analysing my posts, and making a lot of assumptions about me - how are you getting that impression?

Do I really get "perfect bus services" every time? I have never said that, in fact I have regularly criticised DB for shortcomings here. I will however accept that I have built up an understanding of why and how things don't always work, and maybe on occasion am more patient than others. But on other occasions I've certainly not held back in contacting them when something stupid happens.

Where I live is really not the issue here, but to put it like this, I have within walking distance two cross city bus services, an east-west orbital bus service and am within a 20-25 minute walk of LUAS, but also have a 10 minute bus connection to/from it (which also connects with another orbital service and two more infrequent bus services to/from the city).

Having three potential strong routes in/out of town (two cross city buses or the bus/LUAS combination) means I have good choice of services, and to be fair having good public transport close to me was one factor in choosing where to live.

I tend to use RTPI to the max when I'm out and about in figuring out which way to travel - and to be honest most of the time it does work for me.

Nor am I afraid to walk 20 minutes to the LUAS for example either in town or at the other end of my commute.

Muahahaha

bk wrote: »

I think many of the more progressive retailers are well aware of the opportunities and are preparing for it.

Just look at the massive new H&M store and Abercrombie and Fitch on College Green. I'm pretty certain they can't wait for College Green to be pedestrianised and likely picked those locations knowing perfectly well that it will eventually.

To be honest I think most retailers are well aware that pedestrianisation has a positive effect on their business. Remember this report was issued by the car parks association, not a retailers association.

While one or two retailers with their own car parks (Arnotts, Brown Thomas) have a vested interest, I think you will find that the majority think otherwise.

Its just a pity that retailers who would benefit from pedestrianisation dont shout up more in favour of it, or if they do nobody seems to hear it. I know DCC surveyed businesses on Sth William St about trialling pedestrianisation and read on here somewhere that most businesses were in favour. However since then I havent seen any retailers association come out vocally in favour of the idea. Representatives of Brown Thomas and the Irish Car Parks group have all got air time on the main RTE and TV3 news bulletins to put their view points forward in a completely one sided way, vested interests seem to be the most vocal on this with virtually no opposition coming from retailers who would ultimately benefit.

hardCopy

Muahahaha wrote: »

Its just a pity that retailers who would benefit from pedestrianisation dont shout up more in favour of it, or if they do nobody seems to hear it. I know DCC surveyed businesses on Sth William St about trialling pedestrianisation and read on here somewhere that most businesses were in favour. However since then I havent seen any retailers association come out vocally in favour of the idea. Representatives of Brown Thomas and the Irish Car Parks group have all got air time on the main RTE and TV3 news bulletins to put their view points forward in a completely one sided way, vested interests seem to be the most vocal on this with virtually no opposition coming from retailers who would ultimately benefit.

AFAIR the proposal came from local retailers but was shut down by the same car park owning retailers that object to everything.

http://dublinobserver.com/2012/04/businesses-push-for-pedestrian-street-expansion-in-dublin/

Spanish Eyes

It would be so pleasant to have more pedestrian streets. Totally agree that the area around S. William Street is perfect for this. It's clogged with traffic as it is, same as Exchequer Street.

But BT car park wins out every time. Such a shame that a small number of shoppers/parkers/retail outfits can dictate or scupper the vision of a lovely city for everyone. Ah well, hopefully a solution will be found.

Anyway. Has anyone seen the mess that is Bachelor's Walk at the moment? OMG it is chaos. Cars, vans, loading bays, bikes, buses private coaches, it's unbelievable. If ever a section of road needed just PT only and bikes, this is it.

LuckyLloyd

lxflyer wrote: »

You must be spending an awful lot of time analysing my posts, and making a lot of assumptions about me - how are you getting that impression?

Do I really get "perfect bus services" every time? I have never said that, in fact I have regularly criticised DB for shortcomings here. I will however accept that I have built up an understanding of why and how things don't always work, and maybe on occasion am more patient than others. But on other occasions I've certainly not held back in contacting them when something stupid happens.

Where I live is really not the issue here, but to put it like this, I have within walking distance two cross city bus services, an east-west orbital bus service and am within a 20-25 minute walk of LUAS, but also have a 10 minute bus connection to/from it (which also connects with another orbital service and two more infrequent bus services to/from the city).

Having three potential strong routes in/out of town (two cross city buses or the bus/LUAS combination) means I have good choice of services, and to be fair having good public transport close to me was one factor in choosing where to live.

I tend to use RTPI to the max when I'm out and about in figuring out which way to travel - and to be honest most of the time it does work for me.

Nor am I afraid to walk 20 minutes to the LUAS for example either in town or at the other end of my commute.

Spot on. If you want to use public transport effectively you need to consider where you want to live; and maximise use of the real time tools available. I wouldn't move anywhere poorly served tbh.

dubscottie

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It would be so pleasant to have more pedestrian streets. Totally agree that the area around S. William Street is perfect for this. It's clogged with traffic as it is, same as Exchequer Street.

But BT car park wins out every time. Such a shame that a small number of shoppers/parkers/retail outfits can dictate or scupper the vision of a lovely city for everyone. Ah well, hopefully a solution will be found.

Anyway. Has anyone seen the mess that is Bachelor's Walk at the moment? OMG it is chaos. Cars, vans, loading bays, bikes, buses private coaches, it's unbelievable. If ever a section of road needed just PT only and bikes, this is it.

The same car driving BT/ Carrols gift stores, motorbike using shoppers that provide revenue for cafes etc as well?

If want to see your "lovely" vision for Dublin then may I suggest that you move to Holland where the grass is greener..

It is clear that many posters here are anti anything other than cycle.

But Pushbikes are the answer.. The city will be buzzing then..:rolleyes: FFS

Carawaystick

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Anyway. Has anyone seen the mess that is Bachelor's Walk at the moment? OMG it is chaos. Cars, vans, loading bays, bikes, buses private coaches, it's unbelievable. If ever a section of road needed just PT only and bikes, this is it.

You've probably never seen Grafton st in the morning. Chaos, Lorries vans loading, people walking.
If ever a street needed to be pedestrianised.....

HivemindXX

dubscottie wrote: »

The same car driving BT/ Carrols gift stores, motorbike using shoppers that provide revenue for cafes etc as well?

If want to see your "lovely" vision for Dublin then may I suggest that you move to Holland where the grass is greener..

It is clear that many posters here are anti anything other than cycle.

But Pushbikes are the answer.. The city will be buzzing then..:rolleyes: FFS

I don't know where you get that idea from. It seems to me that you have an irrational fear of cycling and feel that it is your right to drive to and park right outside everywhere you want to go. Unfortunately for you and luckily for most of us your breed is on the way out. In 20 years time people will be holding up attitudes such as yours for public mockery as examples of foolish short sighted thinking.

monument

dubscottie wrote: »

The same car driving BT/ Carrols gift stores, motorbike using shoppers that provide revenue for cafes etc as well?

Do many people drive into those tourists traps that are Carrols?

Why are you even mentioning Carrols?

dubscottie wrote: »

If want to see your "lovely" vision for Dublin then may I suggest that you move to Holland where the grass is greener..

Btw tacky tourists shops -- like Carrols -- are popular in Amsterdam.

dubscottie wrote: »

It is clear that many posters here are anti anything other than cycle.

Really? And where has anybody even indicated that? Where are all of the "down with Luas Cross City, build a cycle way instead" posts?

dubscottie wrote: »

But Pushbikes are the answer.. The city will be buzzing then..:rolleyes: FFS

Despite your hate of them, they are part of the answer.

LXFlyer

dubscottie wrote: »

The same car driving BT/ Carrols gift stores, motorbike using shoppers that provide revenue for cafes etc as well?

If want to see your "lovely" vision for Dublin then may I suggest that you move to Holland where the grass is greener..

It is clear that many posters here are anti anything other than cycle.

But Pushbikes are the answer.. The city will be buzzing then..:rolleyes: FFS

You keep going on and on about bicycles, yet the main beneficiaries of these changes will be public transport, with the LUAS Green Line extension and faster more reliable bus journeys through the city centre.

shodge

dubscottie wrote: »

It is clear that many posters here are anti anything other than cycle.

But Pushbikes are the answer.. The city will be buzzing then..:rolleyes: FFS

Dublin city centre was bereft of cyclist this morning , i wonder why?:rolleyes:

Spanish Eyes

Re the last few posts. I am not a cyclist but a pedestrian. I use pt to go to the city all the time, but as a PEDESTRIAN when I get there.... I am not catered for YET.

There has to be a good balance between access for cars, cyclists and the beleaguered PEDESTRIAN too!

Try walking anywhere in Dublin at the moment. It is unbelievably crowded and uncomfortable. Tiny pavements, vying with bus stops and so on.

I cannot wait for PEDESTRIANS to be catered for in this fair city of ours. Which will also benefit cyclists.

Walkers can be commuters and visitors to the city too let's not forget.

A balance for all is what is required. At present cars are choking the place, no question.

Spanish Eyes

Carawaystick wrote: »

You've probably never seen Grafton st in the morning. Chaos, Lorries vans loading, people walking.
If ever a street needed to be pedestrianised.....

LOL. I get you, but that is only allowed at certain times I think.

Haven't seen any private coaches or Dublin Bus jockeying for space all day there.

The oul four in a bed tourist bikes, yes. Hate them things. But what the heck. I have other things to be worried about overall.

cdebru

shodge wrote: »

Dublin city centre was bereft of cyclist this morning , i wonder why?:rolleyes:

No it wasn't I cycled in and it was difficult to find a place to lock the bike, bike stands were full.