Bought crashed car with no airbags

Del2005

Kevin Irving wrote: »

It doesn't matter who actually left the car in this state, the fact is that the dealer sold a car which has one of its primary safety systems disabled. Whether the dealer knew about or not, they are the ones who have to be held responsible here, as unfair as that may be to the dealer in certain complex cases such as this.

The customer is buying a car from a professional car dealer, they have to be allowed in law make the assumption that the car they are buying wont some day kill them because of negligence down the line.

We still don't know what type of dealer sold the car. As they are all professional but some are professionals at selling quality cars others are professionals at selling junk, see the amount of threads on this and other forums from people who buy dangerous cars.

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I'd imagine a crash serious enough to have set the airbags off may have been reported to the Gardai. If that's the case, the paper trail between the person who crashed it and the OP might be very short, and even though he cant prove it four years later, a call from the Gards would be the least I'd expect to everyone involved with the car.

Plenty of cars are crashed and written off and no one ever knows bar the person who's crashed it.

Even if the OP goes after the dealer they aren't going to get much money back off them, they've had the car for 4 years and it's a 12 year old car at this stage so any compensation would take into account that the OP has had use of the car, if there had been crash it would be a different story, and deduct this from the payout.

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

There are many other scenarios where buying from a dealer and having a warranty is useful. In this case there was a deliberate hiding of a fault by persons unknown that resulted in the OP not finding out for years that they didn't have working airbags. This is an unusual situation.

Unusual, but shouldn't have happened.
By buying from a dealer, na matter how small or how big, they should take responsibility for condition of the car and if there are some hidden faults dealer should take the car back or fix them.

You bought your civic from a dealer didn't you?

I bought it from Cargiant, and only reason for that was because it was very handy and not much more expensive than buying privately. And I could do everything within 1 day in one spot, compared to buying privately where I would probably have to travel across the UK for few day to find the right car.
So cargiant just came cheaper.
And on top of that they guaranteed that car was not crashed, that it was not clocked, neither written off.
So if I discovered that it actually was crashed and missing airbags, I would give it back to them, and they would have to take it back.
Possibly UK's law is much better in this regard.

colm_mcm

If you contacted them in 3 years time saying the car was previously crashed I'm not sure how that would go. Especially if the accident wasn't recorded.

I'm not advocating selling dodgy cars, or saying the dealer is definitely not to blame, but it's proving that the dealer knew or that they did the dodgy repair that'll be hard to do.

CiniO

FortySeven wrote: »

They are, it's quite funny. Also the idea that dealers should be testing paint thickness for crash damage etc, etc.

Sorry, but checking a paint thickness is easiest and most reliable way to quickly check if vehicles has been previously crashed.
Paint thickness detector costs below 50 euro so I'm sure any garage can afford it.
Are you seriously saying that garages who sell cars for living should not be bothered to check such things if car was crashed or what condition is it?
They should be just taking car as trade it, and sell it on without looking at it. And if buyer complains they should just say - sorry, we didn't know it was pile of rubbish as we didn't check. Is that what you are saying?
That's nonsense.

What planet do these people live on. Stuff like this happens daily, it's not pretty but it will always be so. You got ripped off. It happens to us all at some point. Move along ffs.

You can get ripped off if you buy privately and are not cautious.
When buying from a dealer that shouldn't be the case.

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

If you contacted them in 3 years time saying the car was previously crashed I'm not sure how that would go.

If I could prove that if was crashed before I got if off them, they would have to take it.
Obviously if could be very hard to prove, and that's what I said in the very beginning of this thread that it will be hard for OP to prove that. But everything is possible, and garage should be responsible.

unkel

CiniO wrote: »

By buying from a dealer, na matter how small or how big, they should take responsibility for condition of the car and if there are some hidden faults dealer should take the car back or fix them.

Of course. If OP had found out the fault on his way home after buying the car, I'm sure they would have sorted it (they legally would have had to!)

But not after 4 years. And come on, be realistic. No dealer, big or small, main or not, would have found this issue out before selling it.

goochy

sorry op 4 yrs is too long. did you not get history check with car?
you have to understand too much could have happened to car in 4 yrs you could have crashed it yourself its your word against theres .

CiniO

unkel wrote: »

But not after 4 years. And come on, be realistic. No dealer, big or small, main or not, would have found this issue out before selling it.

Well that's my main point.
This is not some small tiny fault with the car.
Vehicle had a major crash where airbags fired, and was not even properly repaired as airbags were not replaced.
This is really major issue, and should be found by any garage taking such car as trade in and selling it on. You don't need an expert to detect such issue with a car. I can guarantee that I would find it out straight away if I was to buy that car, and my profession is not related to trading or fixing cars in any way.

FortySeven

CiniO wrote: »

Well that's my main point.
This is not some small tiny fault with the car.
Vehicle had a major crash where airbags fired, and was not even properly repaired as airbags were not replaced.
This is really major issue, and should be found by any garage taking such car as trade in and selling it on. You don't need an expert to detect such issue with a car. I can guarantee that I would find it out straight away if I was to buy that car, and my profession is not related to trading or fixing cars in any way.

I work in a dealers and all cars are history checked, all are inspected by a well qualified mechanic but if the repair is competent then things like missing airbags are impossible to detect without stripping the car. This is not economically viable. we do not own a paint thickness meter and would have to reject plenty cars if we did use this test.

Cars have minor repairs all the time and are partially painted, should we reject anything that has had stonechips repaired? Anything that has had a clip on the bumper? Come on. We would be out of business in no time with all this checking you are suggesting.

Car history check, inspection by mechanic. Industry standard. The fact this car was on the road for 4 years without issue and passed NCTs suggests it is not that bad. So yes, it DOES require an expert to determine this fact.

These things happen all the time, unscrupulous people manage to slip through the gaps and things like this happen. Running around trying to handicap everyone with regulations and excessive caution does not stop it, it just makes it more expensive and annoying for everyone.

RandomAccess

I kinda think it should still be followed up.
This car has a trail previous owners, and some one of them built and sold on a death trap.
I don't think compensation is the question anyone should be asking about here, its really a matter of tracking down who did this.

I don't know how someone would proceed with that, but perhaps some kind of trading standards organisation could get involved.
How many more might be out there.

unkel

I admire your quest for the good, RandomAccess, but you have to be realistic. It won't work. You won't find who did it and even if you did, you won't be able to prove anything. The car is now worth very little if it was perfect and it is worth nothing the way it is. It should just be scrapped.

A vigorous yearly testing system is the only thing that can stop most of this from happening or lingering (and it succeeded - eventually - in this case), but it will never stop all of it. There will always be cons...

GreatDefector

CiniO wrote: »

You just confirmed to me, that buying a vehicle from a motor dealer makes absolutely no sense at all, and buying privately is the best way and really only way to go.

So you think if you were to buy private from someone that this wouldn't happen too? There's been worse than this sold privately

Also incase of a private sale you have 0 comeback

Strange conclusion

barneygumble99

So did car fail for light not working or fault indicated??

colm_mcm

GreatDefector wrote: »

So you think if you were to buy private from someone that this wouldn't happen too? There's been worse than this sold privately

Also incase of a private sale you have 0 comeback

Strange conclusion

His point is that if you get no comeback from a dealer then there's no point paying extra.

CiniO

FortySeven wrote: »

I work in a dealers and all cars are history checked, all are inspected by a well qualified mechanic but if the repair is competent then things like missing airbags are impossible to detect without stripping the car.

So in that case car should be stripped if there is a suspicion it was crashed.

This is not economically viable. we do not own a paint thickness meter and would have to reject plenty cars if we did use this test.

Well, why don't you then?

Cars have minor repairs all the time and are partially painted, should we reject anything that has had stonechips repaired? Anything that has had a clip on the bumper? Come on.

No, you shouldn't reject a car that had a small dent pushed back and painted, neither one which had clip on the bumber.
But if you bothered to use paint thickness meter you could find out if it was painted and where, which would give indication if it was only small bump or more major accident, in which case you should investigate further to find out how severe accident was, and - among others - check the airbags as well.

We would be out of business in no time with all this checking you are suggesting.

If this was the law, and every garage would be doing that you wouldn't be out of business. What would be out of business is crap cars which were badly crashed and not properly repaired, which now many dealers are selling.

Car history check, inspection by mechanic. Industry standard. The fact this car was on the road for 4 years without issue and passed NCTs suggests it is not that bad. So yes, it DOES require an expert to determine this fact.

:eek:
Have a look again what OP said:

Mechanic had a look and found the the wire for the airbag light had been bypased with tin foil and tape, drivers air bag not connected and the wrong passenger seat. Mechanic did as much as he could without diagnostics which I had done today and it revealed the car had been crashed and repaired also the passenger airbag not connected and not even the correct airbag for my car.

This is some major fiddling with safety system on car which looks like had a major crash. If OP's mechanic was able to find out all that, then every dealer selling such car should be able to find that out as well. And don't even take such car as trade in, not even mentioning selling it on to customer.
It's a total disgrace.

These things happen all the time, unscrupulous people manage to slip through the gaps and things like this happen. Running around trying to handicap everyone with regulations and excessive caution does not stop it, it just makes it more expensive and annoying for everyone.

I shouldn't and it wouldn't if it was done properly.
There just should be a law, that every dealer selling a car, should be able to guarantee that car is 100% fit for purpose, and wasn't or was crashed (clearly stated) and if was to what extent and if it's properly repaired.
It's really simple as that.

CiniO

GreatDefector wrote: »

So you think if you were to buy private from someone that this wouldn't happen too? There's been worse than this sold privately

Also incase of a private sale you have 0 comeback

Strange conclusion

Of course it could happen the same when buying privately.
Only difference is buying privately is usually cheaper and therefore worth the risk.
No point in paying extra to buy from the dealer, if you can buy privately cheaper and take the same kind of risk.

rex-x

I actually caught a small private dealer selling a car like this recently, whipped out my autel scanner as i do when buying and low and behold car was crashed, all airbags fired and someone had bodged the light. Its more common than you think. His response was he will just find someone without fancy gear to sell the car to......

Hachiko

when is Ireland going to get a system like the uk where there are several layers of checks for buyers to verify a cars history, I doubt a garage could flog a car in the uk sans air bags, easily. Even things like ANPR cameras are in the UK ages and Ireland has nothing like it, where does all the tax money go.? it doesn't go on road improvements anyway (if you are in munster by the looks of it)

Guy:Incognito

CiniO wrote: »

This is some major fiddling with safety system on car which looks like had a major crash. If OP's mechanic was able to find out all that, then every dealer selling such car should be able to find that out as well. And don't even take such car as trade in, not even mentioning selling it on to customer.
It's a total disgrace.
.

The OP's mechanic was looking for an airbag fault that he knew existed.

If the OP had brought the same mechanic to look at the car when he was buying it do you reckon he'd have stripped the dash to check the airbag light wiring as a standard check?

Would you let someone coming to look at your car strip the dash and take the clocks out to inspect them and the surrounding wiring?

Guy:Incognito

Hachiko wrote: »

when is Ireland going to get a system like the uk where there are several layers of checks for buyers to verify a cars history, I doubt a garage could flog a car in the uk sans air bags, easily. Even things like ANPR cameras are in the UK ages and Ireland has nothing like it, where does all the tax money go.? it doesn't go on road improvements anyway (if you are in munster by the looks of it)

Have you seen the litany of complaints about UK garages, MOT centers and anyone else connected to the trade? If theres a scam going on here you can bet it's going on there, and probably since before the lads here started it.

macplaxton

Hachiko wrote: »

I doubt a garage could flog a car in the uk sans air bags, easily.

Very easily.

You can still pull the SRS warning bulb out to pass a MOT too. Only the ABS and EPS lights need to come on and go out.

https://mattersoftesting.blog.gov.uk/common-mistakes-made-by-mot-testers/

Plenty of Arthur Daleys and Frank Butchers flogging dodgy motors.

CiniO

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The OP's mechanic was looking for an airbag fault that he knew existed.

Yes, agree this made things easier for him.

If the OP had brought the same mechanic to look at the car when he was buying it do you reckon he'd have stripped the dash to check the airbag light wiring as a standard check?

I'd assume so.
First thing he should have a look if car was ever crashed. This is really easy enough to see if you look throughly.
Once he found out it was crashed, he should have a proper look at airbags.
Considering airbag dash light was blinded by tinfoil it was really easy to discover something was fiddled with so again more through investination should be taken.

Would you let someone coming to look at your car strip the dash and take the clocks out to inspect them and the surrounding wiring?

No I wouldn't, as I know there would be no point as my car is fine.

Guy:Incognito

CiniO wrote: »

Yes, agree this made things easier for him.

It's the only reason he, or any other mechanic, would have looked at it.

CiniO wrote: »

I'd assume so.

How many cars have you done it on (or had your mechanic do it) while buying?

CiniO wrote: »

No I wouldn't, as I know there would be no point as my car is fine.

So you're suspicious of any car you're looking at and will expect it to be stripped, but anyone looking at your cars should take you at your word? Are you serious?

BMJD

Hachiko wrote: »

when is Ireland going to get a system like the uk where there are several layers of checks for buyers to verify a cars history, I doubt a garage could flog a car in the uk sans air bags, easily. Even things like ANPR cameras are in the UK ages and Ireland has nothing like it, where does all the tax money go.? it doesn't go on road improvements anyway (if you are in munster by the looks of it)

Google "keighley trade centre"

seagull

CiniO wrote: »

No, you shouldn't reject a car that had a small dent pushed back and painted, neither one which had clip on the bumber.
But if you bothered to use paint thickness meter you could find out if it was painted and where, which would give indication if it was only small bump or more major accident, in which case you should investigate further to find out how severe accident was, and - among others - check the airbags as well.

Repainting doesn't necessarily indicate an accident. My old car had 6 panels resprayed courtesy of a neighbour's child with a bolt.

Guy:Incognito

Equally, nothing being resprayed isnt an indication of no crash history either. You could replace every panel on your car with perfect panels from a donor after yours was left a battered mess. A pant thickness gauge isnt going to be much use in finding anything then.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

So in that case car should be stripped if there is a suspicion it was crashed.


Well, why don't you then?


No, you shouldn't reject a car that had a small dent pushed back and painted, neither one which had clip on the bumber.
But if you bothered to use paint thickness meter you could find out if it was painted and where, which would give indication if it was only small bump or more major accident, in which case you should investigate further to find out how severe accident was, and - among others - check the airbags as well.


If this was the law, and every garage would be doing that you wouldn't be out of business. What would be out of business is crap cars which were badly crashed and not properly repaired, which now many dealers are selling.



:eek:
Have a look again what OP said:

This is some major fiddling with safety system on car which looks like had a major crash. If OP's mechanic was able to find out all that, then every dealer selling such car should be able to find that out as well. And don't even take such car as trade in, not even mentioning selling it on to customer.
It's a total disgrace.



I shouldn't and it wouldn't if it was done properly.
There just should be a law, that every dealer selling a car, should be able to guarantee that car is 100% fit for purpose, and wasn't or was crashed (clearly stated) and if was to what extent and if it's properly repaired.
It's really simple as that.

Is this a law in any other country or are you just having a go at Irish dealers?

There are dodgy dealers in every country and with the OP buying an 8 year old car the chances of finding dodgy cars and/or dealers increases exponentially.
The vast majority of dealers sell quality vehicles and are willing to stand over them. There is a significant minority who pray on the naive, unfortunately people keep going to these as they appear to offer good value until the car leaves the yard and then they find out why reputable dealers charge more.

9935452

CiniO wrote: »

No, you shouldn't reject a car that had a small dent pushed back and painted, neither one which had clip on the bumber.
But if you bothered to use paint thickness meter you could find out if it was painted and where, which would give indication if it was only small bump or more major accident, in which case you should investigate further to find out how severe accident was, and - among others - check the airbags as well.




.

There is plenty of times that whole panels are resprayed when there is a small bump or scratch, colour matching comes to mind, sometimes its impossible to fully match a colour that the whole panel has to be resprayed.
Panels can get keyed as well down the full length . i know a lad who resprayed all 4 dors cause the car was sunstreaked.

goochy

this car came from uk so they missed it . google ' kirk claus and jail ' to see how they deal with dodgy dealers in uk

CiniO

seagull wrote: »

Repainting doesn't necessarily indicate an accident. My old car had 6 panels resprayed courtesy of a neighbour's child with a bolt.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Equally, nothing being resprayed isnt an indication of no crash history either. You could replace every panel on your car with perfect panels from a donor after yours was left a battered mess. A pant thickness gauge isnt going to be much use in finding anything then.

9935452 wrote: »

There is plenty of times that whole panels are resprayed when there is a small bump or scratch, colour matching comes to mind, sometimes its impossible to fully match a colour that the whole panel has to be resprayed.
Panels can get keyed as well down the full length . i know a lad who resprayed all 4 dors cause the car was sunstreaked.

Of course that fact that car was resprayed doesn't necesserily mean it was crashed, as well as fact it wasn't resprayed doesn't necesserily mean it wasn't crashed. But this are exceptions.
In vast majority of cases if car is resprayed it's a good indication that it was crashed and further look up should be taken to find out to what extent it was crashed.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

Is this a law in any other country or are you just having a go at Irish dealers?

Looks like it is in UK.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/cars-and-other-vehicles/buying-a-car/buying-a-used-car/ways-of-buying-a-used-car/buying-a-car-from-a-dealer-what-you-need-to-know/

The car you buy must be roadworthy. This means it must be fit and safe to drive. The Road Traffic Act makes it illegal for anyone to sell a car that is not roadworthy. This applies equally to private sellers and car dealers.

So if dealer sold a car with missing airbags and light shaded with tin foil, it would be illegal, and therefore surely they would have to refund the car, even if it was discovered 4 years later if possible to prove it was sold like that.


And yes - if you are going to ask how it works it Poland I tell straight away that it's much worse than in Ireland. There doesn't seem to be any laws there in regards what vehicles sold by dealers should look like, so in short buying from dealers there is the same dodgy as buying privately. And this applies even to big franchised main dealer when they sell second hand cars.

slimjimmc

CiniO wrote: »

Looks like it is in UK.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/cars-and-other-vehicles/buying-a-car/buying-a-used-car/ways-of-buying-a-used-car/buying-a-car-from-a-dealer-what-you-need-to-know/


So if dealer sold a car with missing airbags and light shaded with tin foil, it would be illegal, and therefore surely they would have to refund the car, even if it was discovered 4 years later if possible to prove it was sold like that.
:

It's illegal here too and you also have comeback under consumer law if the car is dangerous, but as others have been pointing out establishing sufficient proof after 4 years is the problem. If the OP has such proof then by all means go for it.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

Looks like it is in UK.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/cars-and-other-vehicles/buying-a-car/buying-a-used-car/ways-of-buying-a-used-car/buying-a-car-from-a-dealer-what-you-need-to-know/


So if dealer sold a car with missing airbags and light shaded with tin foil, it would be illegal, and therefore surely they would have to refund the car, even if it was discovered 4 years later if possible to prove it was sold like that.


And yes - if you are going to ask how it works it Poland I tell straight away that it's much worse than in Ireland. There doesn't seem to be any laws there in regards what vehicles sold by dealers should look like, so in short buying from dealers there is the same dodgy as buying privately. And this applies even to big franchised main dealer when they sell second hand cars.

We have the same and it appears that the OP may be in luck, if you can figure out what section 4 means.

(2) Without prejudice to any other condition or warranty, in every contract for the sale of a motor vehicle (except a contract in which the buyer is a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles) there is an implied condition that at the time of delivery of the vehicle under the contract it is free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle.

(4) Save in a case in which the implied condition as to freedom from defects referred to in subsection (2) is either not incorporated in the contract or has been effectively excluded from the contract pursuant to that subsection, in the case of every sale of a motor vehicle by a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles a certificate in writing in such form as the Minister may by regulations prescribe shall be given to the buyer by or on behalf of the seller to the effect that the vehicle is, at the time of delivery, free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle.

(5) Where an action is brought for breach of the implied condition referred to in subsection (2) by reason of a specific defect in a motor vehicle and a certificate complying with the requirements of this section is not proved to have been given, it shall be presumed unless the contrary is proved that the proven defect existed at the time of delivery.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

We have the same and it appears that the OP may be in luck, if you can figure out what section 4 means.

OK brilliant.
So there are laws in relation to this, and no dealer should sell a car with deactivated/missing airbags and light shaded with tin foil.

Strange though then first reaction when I wrote about it was that:

colm_mcm wrote: »

A dealer can't reasonably be expected to always check if someone has bypassed warning systems before they sell a car.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

how would you expect a dealer to know anything is up if it has been bypassed and all appears ok?

unkel wrote: »

They are car sales people for Pete's sake! They aren't engineers commissioned to do a detailed forensic check up.

FortySeven

CiniO wrote: »

OK brilliant.
So there are laws in relation to this, and no dealer should sell a car with deactivated/missing airbags and light shaded with tin foil.

Strange though then first reaction when I wrote about it was that:

Do you get out much CiniO? There are all types of laws and regulations that can not possibly be adhered to. This is one of them. Why can't you just admit from the overwhelming opinion on here that you are wrong?

Being pedantic and making out the world is some kind of utopian, cotton wrapped, government legislated pleasantry does not make it so. Life is a cesspool of corruption and scheming. Get used to it.

Government regulation on issues such as these is not fit for purpose and never will be. look at the money and resources they spend on the war on drugs, yet drugs are easier to get than ever. Wake up and smell the cornflakes man!

CiniO

FortySeven wrote: »

Do you get out much CiniO? There are all types of laws and regulations that can not possibly be adhered to. This is one of them. Why can't you just admit from the overwhelming opinion on here that you are wrong?

Being pedantic and making out the world is some kind of utopian, cotton wrapped, government legislated pleasantry does not make it so. Life is a cesspool of corruption and scheming. Get used to it.

Government regulation on issues such as these is not fit for purpose and never will be. look at the money and resources they spend on the war on drugs, yet drugs are easier to get than ever. Wake up and smell the cornflakes man!

I genuinely can't see a single reason why this law could not and should not be adhered to.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

I genuinely can't see a single reason why this law could not and should not be adhered to.

You've been in this country long enough to know we are great at laws, it's illegal to be drunk in Ireland, but not very good at enforcing them, look at any town in Ireland in the last 2 hours and see how many drunks have been arrested.

FortySeven

CiniO wrote: »

I genuinely can't see a single reason why this law could not and should not be adhered to.

Because if you go to court and try to return a 12 year old car you have had for 4 years, that has passed the NCT and been in daily use. You would be laughed out of court.

How does the OP know it was sold like that, perhaps the mechanic who discovered the issue was just manufacturing work for himself? Perhaps the OP is trying to pull a fast one? (Probably not, but welcome to the concept of reasonable doubt) Evidence is sadly lacking in this case. Too late, chalk it up to experience and move on, ffs.

The level of scrutiny you are suggesting dealers should be forced to adhere to would bankrupt most enterprises. The system generally works, there are ALWAYS exceptions in any field.

Perhaps every person should have another person watching their every move to ensure they are doing everything correctly at all times? Would that be a good idea?

Guy:Incognito

CiniO wrote: »

OK brilliant.
So there are laws in relation to this, and no dealer should sell a car with deactivated/missing airbags and light shaded with tin foil.

Strange though then first reaction when I wrote about it was that:

Did you pull the airbags out of the cars you've bought while inspecting them to verify they were there?