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Rent increase and leaving

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  • 11-08-2015 11:07am
    #1
    dori_dormer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    Just a Quick question, someone I know has been issued a massive rent increase of 350 euro with a 28 day deadline. They can't afford it and the house is in a poor state so they said they would leave instead. They are on part 4 and have been there over 2 years.

    The agent has said they Have to give their full 56 days notice, won't negotiate a shorter time and are insisting on the increased rent for the second month.

    Is this all above board? I presumed if you didn't agre to the increase and left, you would stay on the terms of your old contract until your notice was up. I've never encounterd this situation before so don't know what to advise. Threshold have said the agent is correct but we all know they give out wrong Info all the time

    Thanks!


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    #2
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    The agent is correct. The only loopholes they might have is the timing of their last rent increase and if the increase is in line with market rates in the area.

    A landlord can only increase rents once per calendar year and then it must be in line with market rates. Do you have information on either of these?


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    #3
    dori_dormer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭dori_dormer


    Yes it's all above board with the rent increase. They increased it by 150 12 mths ago, now 350 starting sept. The house is falling apart and not worth the money so they don't want to stay.

    Seems ridiculous to me that they only have to give 28 days notice of increase but can hold you to a longer notice of leaving period. The 2 should be linked in my mind!

    Oh well who said renting in Ireland was fair or logical?


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    #4
    Full Marx
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭Full Marx


    If I were in your friends position I know what I'd be saying.


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    #5
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    Rent has increased by 500 euro in 12 Calendar months and is still in line with market rent? Seems unlikely.


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    #6
    dori_dormer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭dori_dormer


    They are furious, but they need to stay within the law for their references and to get their deposit back in a timely fashion. They could really do without the hassle of a prtb case either way even though the agents are absolute chancers and have caused them no end of hassle over the years


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    #7
    dori_dormer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭dori_dormer


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    Rent has increased by 500 euro in 12 Calendar months and is still in line with market rent? Seems unlikely.


    They sa it's a little above now. Maybe 150/ 200 over. Thing is if they go through prtb with the issue, it'll be resolved in maybe 6 months, rent in the area will have increased more by then, it won't look so bad and then they'll owe all the back rent which they can't afford


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    #8
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Is the new proposed rent in line with market rates for the property type and location? If not, they can offer to pay an increase in line with market rates.


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    #9
    Agent Smith
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 21,504 Mod ✭✭✭✭Agent Smith


    dori_dormer wrote: »
    Hi,

    Just a Quick question, someone I know has been issued a massive rent increase of 350 euro with a 28 day deadline. They can't afford it and the house is in a poor state so they said they would leave instead. They are on part 4 and have been there over 2 years.

    The agent has said they Have to give their full 56 days notice, won't negotiate a shorter time and are insisting on the increased rent for the second month.

    Is this all above board? I presumed if you didn't agre to the increase and left, you would stay on the terms of your old contract until your notice was up. I've never encounterd this situation before so don't know what to advise. Threshold have said the agent is correct but we all know they give out wrong Info all the time

    Thanks!

    If the rent is increesed, surely a new lease has to be signed, as they have refused to sign the new lease with the increse, they have no obligation to pay the increese. they have given their notice to leave and thats that.


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    #10
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    Agent Smith wrote: »
    If the rent is increesed, surely a new lease has to be signed, as they have refused to sign the new lease with the increse, they have no obligation to pay the increese. they have given their notice to leave and thats that.

    There's no lease.


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    #11
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users Posts: 14,599 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    Agent Smith wrote: »
    If the rent is increesed, surely a new lease has to be signed, as they have refused to sign the new lease with the increse, they have no obligation to pay the increese. they have given their notice to leave and thats that.

    Part 4 tenancy


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    #12
    dori_dormer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭dori_dormer


    Well there is , they are on part 4, but yes they have not agreed to the increase. 12 mths ago the agent tried to increase by 300, they negotiated 150. Now they want 350 more. They think this is going to happen every year and don't need the stress of it. They had to climb through a window for 2 weeks as the agent refused to send them out a locksmith when the front door broke. It was some special key or something. They don't need the crap any more and just want to leave


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    #13
    dori_dormer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,919 ✭✭✭dori_dormer


    Ok so she gave me wrong info.

    They signed a new 1 yr lease with the new rent 2 months after the old lease finished. The extortionate rent increase is effective from the end of this second fixed term lease.

    The lease says 28 days notice in it. They have given this notice. Can they be forced to stay beyond the lease, at the higher rent?

    Does part 4 or the lease come first in cases like this?


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    #14
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    dori_dormer wrote: »
    Ok so she gave me wrong info.

    They signed a new 1 yr lease with the new rent 2 months after the old lease finished. The extortionate rent increase is effective from the end of this second fixed term lease.

    The lease says 28 days notice in it. They have given this notice. Can they be forced to stay beyond the lease, at the higher rent?

    Does part 4 or the lease come first in cases like this?

    No they cannot.


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    #15
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,845 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Agent Smith wrote: »
    If the rent is increesed, surely a new lease has to be signed, as they have refused to sign the new lease with the increse, they have no obligation to pay the increese. they have given their notice to leave and thats that.

    Nah, you usually just sign a form that specifies the new rent and the date it applies from. It's not a lease.


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    #16
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,967 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Agent Smith wrote: »
    If the rent is increesed, surely a new lease has to be signed, as they have refused to sign the new lease with the increse, they have no obligation to pay the increese. they have given their notice to leave and thats that.

    Correct.

    But they are required to give 56 days notice of leaving, which can only be reduced if both parties agree. (The agent doesn't).

    The LL, OTOH, is only required to give 28 days notice of the increase.

    That means that for the last 28 days, they have to pay at the higher rate.

    And while it would be tempting to say "Shure'n I forgot to change my standing order amount, I'll mail you a cheque for the difference" - that won't help them get their deposit back, or to get a reference.

    The only option is to refuse and to open a PRTB case arguing that it's more than market rent (making sure you keep screen shots etc of the rents around the place now) - but again, not good on the reference front.


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    #17
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Correct.

    But they are required to give 56 days notice of leaving, which can only be reduced if both parties agree. (The agent doesn't).

    The LL, OTOH, is only required to give 28 days notice of the increase.

    That means that for the last 28 days, they have to pay at the higher rate.

    And while it would be tempting to say "Shure'n I forgot to change my standing order amount, I'll mail you a cheque for the difference" - that won't help them get their deposit back, or to get a reference.

    The only option is to refuse and to open a PRTB case arguing that it's more than market rent (making sure you keep screen shots etc of the rents around the place now) - but again, not good on the reference front.

    The agent can disagree all he or she wants but if 28 days notice is specified in the lease then that is the agreement of both parties.


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    #18
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    gaius c wrote: »
    The agent can disagree all he or she wants but if 28 days notice is specified in the lease then that is the agreement of both parties.

    Who says its specified in the lease?


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    #19
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    Rent has increased by 500 euro in 12 Calendar months and is still in line with market rent? Seems unlikely.

    Depends on the house and location. You might have let a 3 bed in Dublin 9 for €1200 2 years ago and now the house would probably be for let at €1800. There is such a shortage, you can almost charge what you want within reason. Its extremely hard to define market rent, when there is such a low base to work off. The PRTB and daft estimates are pretty useless, as they dont take into account location and condition of a house. Eg a 3 bed in Dublin could be a council house in Ringsend or a gorgeous terrace house in Sandymount.

    OP your friend can lodge a dispute with the PRTB about the rent. But if the PRTB rules in the Landlords favour, you will have to pay the higher rent amount


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    #20
    petes
    Registered Users Posts: 8,382 ✭✭✭petes


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    Who says its specified in the lease?

    The OP.


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    #21
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    Who says its specified in the lease?
    The OP
    dori_dormer wrote: »
    Ok so she gave me wrong info.

    They signed a new 1 yr lease with the new rent 2 months after the old lease finished. The extortionate rent increase is effective from the end of this second fixed term lease.

    The lease says 28 days notice in it. They have given this notice. Can they be forced to stay beyond the lease, at the higher rent?

    Does part 4 or the lease come first in cases like this?


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    #22
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    gaius c wrote: »
    The OP

    You can't agree different notice periods from those in Part 4 in advance.


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    #23
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    You can't agree different notice periods from those in Part 4 in advance.

    Eh? You can indeed agree shorter or longer periods of notice as long as both parties agree. If its in the lease and the OP wants to give 28 days notice then thats that.


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    #24
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    Eh? You can indeed agree shorter or longer periods of notice as long as both parties agree. If its in the lease and the OP wants to give 28 days notice then thats that.

    The RTA2004 does not allow different notice periods from the part 4 periods to be in a lease or any point in advance of giving notice. A different notice period can be agreed at the point of giving notice but must be agreed by both parties.


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    #25
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    It seems pretty stupid that you can have a rent change period of a month shorter than a leaving notice period.


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    #26
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    The RTA2004 does not allow different notice periods from the part 4 periods to be in a lease or any point in advance of giving notice. A different notice period can be agreed at the point of giving notice but must be agreed by both parties.

    Where does it say that?
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/print.html


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    #27
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    gaius c wrote: »
    Where does it say that?
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0027/print.html

    I should have said lesser notice periods not different. Greater notice periods may be agreed in a lease in line with section 60.

    Section 69
    (1) Subject to subsection (2), the landlord or tenant may agree to a lesser period of notice being given than that required by a preceding provision of this Chapter and such lesser period of notice may be given accordingly.

    (2) Such an agreement to a lesser period of notice being given may only be entered into at, or after, the time it is indicated to the tenant or landlord (as appropriate) by the other party that he or she intends to terminate the tenancy.

    (3) For the avoidance of doubt, a term of a lease or tenancy agreement cannot constitute such an agreement.


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    #28
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,310 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Correct.

    But they are required to give 56 days notice of leaving, which can only be reduced if both parties agree. (The agent doesn't).

    The LL, OTOH, is only required to give 28 days notice of the increase.

    That means that for the last 28 days, they have to pay at the higher rate.

    .

    This is incredibly poor and inaccurate advice. You should not be giving advice in this regard.


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    #29
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,967 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Tar.Aldarion wrote: »
    It seems pretty stupid that you can have a rent change period of a month shorter than a leaving notice period.

    it is. IMHO.


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    #30
    gaius c
    Registered Users Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    I should have said lesser notice periods not different. Greater notice periods may be agreed in a lease in line with section 60.

    Section 69
    (1) Subject to subsection (2), the landlord or tenant may agree to a lesser period of notice being given than that required by a preceding provision of this Chapter and such lesser period of notice may be given accordingly.

    (2) Such an agreement to a lesser period of notice being given may only be entered into at, or after, the time it is indicated to the tenant or landlord (as appropriate) by the other party that he or she intends to terminate the tenancy.

    (3) For the avoidance of doubt, a term of a lease or tenancy agreement cannot constitute such an agreement.

    That's very interesting. Thanks for posting.

    It's a bizarre application of the law really and ahem... It's very unlikely the agent would have your level of knowledge so I'd advise the tenant to give it a go anyway. :)


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