IM Barcelona 2015

zico10

68 lost souls wrote: »

So drafting is ok so long as it is with your own club or a Dane and 2 French guys cause that is what it seems like from this report.

....I caught up with my club and drafted them but fecked everyone who drafted me...

...We got a mini peleton going with 4 of us and drafted each other all the way to the finish...

Stinks of double standards.

Apart from that well done on a great race and so close to Kona well done

Nothing you've highlighted is evidence of wrongdoing by the poster. He kept his legal distance. There is still a big advantage to be had cycling 10m back from the cyclist in front. But it's a perfectly legal pace line and it's how the pros cycle. You'd be an idiot to try to lead out cyclists of a similar ability for an extended period of time, when sharing the workload will save you all a lot of energy.

68 lost souls

zico10 wrote: »

Nothing you've highlighted is evidence of wrongdoing by the poster. He kept his legal distance. There is still a big advantage to be had cycling 10m back from the cyclist in front. But it's a perfectly legal pace line and it's how the pros cycle. You'd be an idiot to try to lead out cyclists of a similar ability for an extended period of time, when sharing the workload will save you all a lot of energy.

There are still many things I need to learn in Triathlon, in my mind there is a grey area here in the rules that you are not allowed draft but can still get an aerodynamic advantage by drafting staying in a paceline at a set distance back.

I think getting the difference between these two right probably comes with experience and in my 2 seasons of racing I have just gone for the stay well back or ahead of anyone approach to avoid any sort of drafting. Might help me off the bike if I use the paceline approach.

bryangiggsy

zico10 wrote: »

Nothing you've highlighted is evidence of wrongdoing by the poster. He kept his legal distance. There is still a big advantage to be had cycling 10m back from the cyclist in front. But it's a perfectly legal pace line and it's how the pros cycle. You'd be an idiot to try to lead out cyclists of a similar ability for an extended period of time, when sharing the workload will save you all a lot of energy.

The issue is Zico a lot of competitors dont know what a legal pace line is or how to ride in one . Tis the pleb who sucks your wheel then passes you and then drops right in front of you and slows down which fooks your pacing up. Saw this photo this morning. there cant be any justification for this.

zico10

bryangiggsy wrote: »

The issue is Zico a lot of competitors dont know what a legal pace line is or how to ride in one . Tis the pleb who sucks your wheel then passes you and then drops right in front of you and slows down which fooks your pacing up. Saw this photo this morning. there cant be any justification for this.

I'm not disputing this, but I don't want to get drawn into this debate. So although I've been following the thread, I haven't posted.

BC posted a report, he was accused of double standards. I was defending him against this, that's all.

68 lost souls

zico10 wrote: »

BC posted a report, he was accused of double standards. I was defending him against this, that's all.

Merely looking for a distinction between the two as before a clarification I was not aware of the difference between drafting and a pace line as has been described.

Don't want ot be dragged into a debate either but cant learn if I dont ask

BTH

bryangiggsy wrote: »

The issue is Zico a lot of competitors dont know what a legal pace line is or how to ride in one . Tis the pleb who sucks your wheel then passes you and then drops right in front of you and slows down which fooks your pacing up. Saw this photo this morning. there cant be any justification for this.

Is that a pulse kit back right of the peloton??

zico10

68 lost souls wrote: »

So drafting is ok so long as it is with your own club or a Dane and 2 French guys cause that is what it seems like from this report.

....I caught up with my club and drafted them but fecked everyone who drafted me...

...We got a mini peleton going with 4 of us and drafted each other all the way to the finish...

Stinks of double standards.

Apart from that well done on a great race and so close to Kona well done

68 lost souls wrote: »

Merely looking for a distinction between the two as before a clarification I was not aware of the difference between drafting and a pace line as has been described.

Don't want ot be dragged into a debate either but cant learn if I dont ask

It's a funny way of asking, if you don't mind me saying so.



In the picture B is getting an advantage, if he enters A's draftzone, then he must complete the pass within 20 seconds. A can fall back the 10m and get the same advantage B had. 20 seconds later, A can overtake again, and B can fall back, and on, and on. This is a pace line.

C is sucking B's wheel. He is drafting and should be penalised.

http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/news/articles/2015/02/standardized-global-competition-rules.aspx#axzz3o4MSCAe7

sconhome

Even though a pace line is technically legal it is skirting the rules and against the spirit of racing as an individual. It is also hard to marshal as judging a 10m gap which is travelling at 40+kph is more opinion than fact.

zico10

AKW wrote: »

Even though a pace line is technically legal it is skirting the rules and against the spirit of racing as an individual. It is also hard to marshal as judging a 10m gap which is travelling at 40+kph is more opinion than fact.

These are the pertinent words.

I'm sure Bryan McCrystal wished he was part of one in Barcalona and I doubt he'd criticise the pros ahead of him who were.

RJM85

zico10 wrote: »

These are the pertinent words.

I'm sure Bryan McCrystal wished he was part of one in Barcalona and I doubt he'd criticise the pros ahead of him who were.

I know for a fact he's bemoaned the fact that he doesn't get to participate in the pace lines due to his below par swimming.

MojoMaker

bryangiggsy wrote: »

The issue is Zico a lot of competitors dont know what a legal pace line is or how to ride in one . Tis the pleb who sucks your wheel then passes you and then drops right in front of you and slows down which fooks your pacing up. Saw this photo this morning. there cant be any justification for this.

Regarding this picture, it being a climb and all, how would you propose either the competitors or the marshalls solve this situation and separate the group?

Race organiser's problem IMO. Too many people hitting the cycle course at the same time. You'd have to get off and push if you wanted to be completely legal there.

bryangiggsy

MojoMaker wrote: »

Regarding this picture, it being a climb and all, how would you propose either the competitors or the marshalls solve this situation and separate the group?

Race organiser's problem IMO. Too many people hitting the cycle course at the same time. You'd have to get off and push if you wanted to be completely legal there.

Do u think they were riding legally before they hit the climb? So many cyclists in such short proximity indicates they all turned the corner together in the same formation.

bryangiggsy

MojoMaker wrote: »

Regarding this picture, it being a climb and all, how would you propose either the competitors or the marshalls solve this situation and separate the group?

Race organiser's problem IMO. Too many people hitting the cycle course at the same time. You'd have to get off and push if you wanted to be completely legal there.

This size group obviously built up over time. If I was a marshal I would have rode by them then stopped them all at the top of the climb and give everyone of them a yellow card. If your in a group like that your cheating. That group just did not form at bottom of climb .

Boardcore

That photo is taken just after the turnaround-roundabout in Calella,

3km (first 3 kms was draft neutral - maybe sorting themselves out),
77km (No excuse)
or 147km (last lap overtaking 2nd lap - Still no excuse)

ChickenBalls

Boardcore wrote: »

That photo is taken just after the turnaround-roundabout in Calella,

3km (first 3 kms was draft neutral - maybe sorting themselves out),
77km (No excuse)
or 147km (last lap overtaking 2nd lap - Still no excuse)

The first 3km was because of the narrow streets and technical turns (some U turns) and not forgetting the speed bumps just as many as the strawberry beds in Dublin. I'm back from it myself and knee held up great! That picture linked above of the group are the d**ks that I saw multiple times cycling on the flat never mind that hill on the way out of Calella - couldn't believe they got away with it. I got swallowed up at one stage from a different group and it did divide up after a while but its hard to get out of unless you break or push on which you'd have to be going 40kph+ to do otherwise your killing yourself. I reckon gps tag the bikes and the marsels can monitor remotely, much more efficient and it will stop everyone from drafting. Great race overall 11hr 33mins for me which I'm delighted with especially with no training 6 weeks out due to the knee and only 2 long runs all year one being the Half in Dublin. I did think the merchandise was sh*te apart from one or two items - the quality of some of the gear was terrible! I did buy the cycling top as I'm a Barca fan for €90 which I wouldn't normally do but the T-Shirts and Polo tops were sized very badly - some small sizes where really large and the length was way too long and I'm 6ft 4in. Got the finisher Compressport top and they thru in free finisher socks which I thought was good. The bag at registration was great as it was a proper bag not the one in Dublin. I think they sold those bags in Dublin for €55 so good to get it free. No tattoos either for this race just race number as normal. Can't wait till my next one!

68 lost souls

The more I think about it the more I still don't understand why one sort of drafting is legal and the other isn't. Surely apart from safety the reason for no draft legal so it a proper race of you against the clock and therefore no advantage of any sort should be allowed in any form? I just don't see why one should e allowed and the other not. I know it is within the rules and if it's allowed and others are doing it you would be a fool not to but in my own opinion it shouldn't be allowed at all.

Just to be clear I'm not having a go at any one in particular but rather at the rules themselves. Either allow it all or don't allow it.

Boardcore

68 lost souls wrote: »

The more I think about it the more I still don't understand why one sort of drafting is legal and the other isn't. Surely apart from safety the reason for no draft legal so it a proper race of you against the clock and therefore no advantage of any sort should be allowed in any form? I just don't see why one should e allowed and the other not. I know it is within the rules and if it's allowed and others are doing it you would be a fool not to but in my own opinion it shouldn't be allowed at all.

Just to be clear I'm not having a go at any one in particular but rather at the rules themselves. Either allow it all or don't allow it.

Lost soul. Watch the kona coverage tomorrow night, all will be explained during the 8+ hours of broadcast.

68 lost souls

Boardcore wrote: »

Lost soul. Watch the kona coverage tomorrow night, all will be explained during the 8+ hours of broadcast.

I intend on it. Looking forward to seeing some strong Irishmen in there and maybe learning a bit from it. Been paying attention to BBC coverage of WTS this year and Chicago was really exciting.

Just wondering where the line should be drawn and if 10m was just and arbitrary distance?

Boardcore

68 lost souls wrote: »

I intend on it. Looking forward to seeing some strong Irishmen in there and maybe learning a bit from it. Been paying attention to BBC coverage of WTU this year and Chicago was really exciting.

Just wondering where the line should be drawn and if 10m was just and arbitrary distance?

Previously it was 8m and was up'd this year to 10m, the pro's have gone to 12m. Aerodynamic advantage drops off exponentially the further you move from the rear wheel. I'm sure there's a shiny graph somewhere showing you exactly. Check out specialised YouTube channel aeroiseverything.

The Davestator

I think people who weren't there might get the impression that it was one long train of bikes - It wasn't. Once the first lap was over, it was very simple to not draft. There were groups of riders still until the end, but these were the minority of competitors. The course is too short to faciliate the numbers and as there are no hills to thin people out, it will continue to be difficult to make it a fair race.

68 lost souls

Dave my questioning is not specifically based on Barcelona and perhaps should be put in their own thread even. I have been puzzled by it at several races. Come up behind a pace line and had to push hard to get clear or been passed at speed by one. Now I see it would have been ok if I joined it?

On a looped course with wave times and that many competitors of course it will get congested in parts and I believe IM had tried to change the bike course for this reason but couldn't get permission from local authorities? I am not raising an issue with tha race or how specific people raced but more so with the fundimental rules surrounding drafting.

peter kern

68 lost souls wrote: »

Dave my questioning is not specifically based on Barcelona and perhaps should be put in their own thread even. I have been puzzled by it at several races. Come up behind a pace line and had to push hard to get clear or been passed at speed by one. Now I see it would have been ok if I joined it?

On a looped course with wave times and that many competitors of course it will get congested in parts and I believe IM had tried to change the bike course for this reason but couldn't get permission from local authorities? I am not raising an issue with tha race or how specific people raced but more so with the fundimental rules surrounding drafting.

the rules of drafting are best compared with the greek tax system and enforcement ;-)
where do you start ...??? 30 years and more of f.ck ups in both cases.

iarmhi1975

Had a closer look at some of the times, then had a look at some times for bike on double Olympic Athy and compared them to my own. In one instance in 12mins quicker over 80km but when i compare Barcelona time I end up being 5 minutes slower. Thats some improvement and I want the secrets:rolleyes:

The Davestator

iarmhi1975 wrote: »

Had a closer look at some of the times, then had a look at some times for bike on double Olympic Athy and compared them to my own. In one instance in 12mins quicker over 80km but when i compare Barcelona time I end up being 5 minutes slower. Thats some improvement and I want the secrets:rolleyes:

Maybe the additional 5 months of training made someone faster?

I averaged 35 kph for Dublin 70.3 and 35.2 for Barcelona in case you want to add that into your calculations?

iarmhi1975

yes of course you would expect an improvement. But just under 34kmh for 80kms to 36.4 mms for 180kms is quite an improvement IMO.

Taking yourself as an example, there was about 6/7 week training before taper for IM Barcelona and that is when quite a lot of the speed work can be done. Given you did 35.2 on Dublin course I would fully expect you could break 5 hours and not be one bit surprised. That you did 35.2 is surprising but if you improved at the same levels as others have 4:40/45 would have been more in order.

bryangiggsy

iarmhi1975 wrote: »

yes of course you would expect an improvement. But just under 34kmh for 80kms to 36.4 mms for 180kms is quite an improvement IMO

U are comparing apples and oranges.. The 40k bike course in Athy is technical..A lot of turns. Stop starts plus the road surface... u cannot compare the two.

iarmhi1975

bryangiggsy wrote: »

U are comparing apples and oranges.. The 40k bike course in Athy is technical..A lot of turns. Stop starts plus the road surface... u cannot compare the two.

bryangiggsy, I know Athy is technical as I have raced it. I know the turn scrubs off your speed and the surface isn't exactly rolling. I also know that the temperature of the water and the air is lower etc.

But, I do also know the Barcelona course and I raced it last year in wet conditions for the first 1.5 laps and with 500 or so less people on the course. I also know what I witnessed and was frustrated by last year.

In an earlier post I did say that we should not look at all times and dismiss them and I stand by that but I am saying that some of them don't make sense to me. Again, its my experience, I wasn't managing myself on power I was managing myself on HR and looking to break 5 hours on the bike and 10 hours overall. I know what HR I was operating on for both races and I know the difference in my fitness levels between the races.

i know its apple and oranges but in one instance you hit the bike course after swimming 800m more, you cycle 100 kms more and while cycling the 100 kms more you have to run 22kms more than in Athy. I also know that those extra 22kms are far much more than just numbers and I know you need to hold back to respect them.

The Davestator

iarmhi1975 wrote: »

yes of course you would expect an improvement. But just under 34kmh for 80kms to 36.4 mms for 180kms is quite an improvement IMO.

Taking yourself as an example, there was about 6/7 week training before taper for IM Barcelona and that is when quite a lot of the speed work can be done. Given you did 35.2 on Dublin course I would fully expect you could break 5 hours and not be one bit surprised. That you did 35.2 is surprising but if you improved at the same levels as others have 4:40/45 would have been more in order.

You're probably right about being capable of sub 5 but my HR was too high in Dublin, so I kept it much lower in Barca so I wouldnt die on the marathon!

Scarlet42

Boardcore wrote: »

IM Barcelona Race Report

Didn't sleep at all going into the race. The Aussies had beaten England and Papa Joes bar was playing Waltzing Matilda till 3 in the morning, with tons of people celebrating late on - not good for twisting and turning in the bed. Felt tired and unmotivated at breakfast but met up with the Sligo heads to make our way to transition and the spirits lifted. Prepped all, visited the toilet, had a warm-up swim and then it was business time.

Swim - 1.04.06 (Overall 404, Div.90)
Went off in the 54-59min group, hoping to hold feet but they simply swam away from me in the first 150m, the swell made it difficult to latch onto anyone and i felt like i was swimming alone and going backwards. (Felt tired and defeated, convincing myself I was having a bad day). 1000m seemed to take forever. On the turn back parallel to the beach both the waves and the landscape made breathing to the left similar to the Holyhead ferry in a force 8, switched to breathing on the right only - problem solved. Woke up to myself at about 2500m, found feet and got motoring to the finish. Swam 3.95km on the Garmin (1.37/100m) - so know they're gains to be had here in the future.

T1 - 3.39 - uneventful and painless

Bike: 4.41.28 (Overall 111, Div.15)
Biking is my strongest discipline, so I was relishing this leg, I had a plan to begin with, but threw it out the window pretty much as the race unfolded. I was playing catch up after my swim, which turns out wasn’t so bad - as everyone swam slower than expected. I had test rode the course for 20 km 2 days earlier, so knew it was going to be fast. The roads rolled sweet and the sweeping bends just cried out for aggressive riding.

I made huge gains over the first 40km and spotted some of my Sligo Crew 600m up the road at the first switchback. I dug deep and caught the group, when I reached the tail-end – I sat up for a breather only to see that I had dragged a group of 20 or more with me. They engulfed me riding 2/3 a breast. I was disgusted and let them and the motorbike official that was trying to separate them by blowing whistles but with no cards that I could see know all about it. None where prepared or capable of continuing on with a pass and would just weave directly in front of you forcing you to drop back.

I went out the back and began a new pass, fecking each and everyone one of them out of it as I went. I got to the front of the group at the base of one of the inclines and put the power down. 2 French guys and a Dane came with me, we shared the work, up and over 1km at a time and we legally rode away from the pack. My 225W plan was now gone as my power figures where rising from doing major work at the front of the PaceLine, but I didn’t want to be dragged back into a peloton and run the risk of a card. Had read a piece about the latest trend to boss the bike and hold on for the run, this was going to be the new strategy.

I had fueled well on the bike but with 20kms to go I was starting to feel it in my legs. We had lost Thomas the Dane to a puncture, so it was myself, Frank and Sebastian all the way to the finish. I had taken salt tablets all race, so couldn’t feel any cramping just fatigue. There are over 40 roundabouts to be negotiated which breaks up your time trialling rhythm – so I would say this course could be ridden even faster. Lost my spares bottle at the last roundabout bunny hoping a pothole, the bang I assumed was a puncture, 3kms to go, ride on the rim I thought slowing over all the ramps and corners that line the last 2kms into transition.

T2 – 0.57 – no idea where the timing mat was but flew through this.

Run: 3.23.15(Overall 94, Div 16)
In my last few races when I have pushed the bike, I had suffered some cramping straight into the run, thankfully nothing here, felt good, stopped for a pee exiting T2, which I should’ve done on the bike (50s lost) felt good / lighter afterwards. I was running with a fuel belt which I ditched after 1km to the support crew, felt lighter again.

My crew had did some counting and I was lying 8th in category—(Dare to dream of the big island) First 10 km flew in and I was feeling great, right where I wanted to be – Ahead of where I wanted to be - 43.36, next 10km – 45.02, on the 3rd lap the sun came out and I felt my energy drain, also Gelly Belly was starting to take effect - next 10km slowed to 49.08.

The support from and for the Irish was immense but predominately on a 4km stretch of the loop, you had 6kms of lonely enough uneven terrain. I picked up a bottle of coke and faced into the last 10km loop, I knew I was going to finish but with the GI issues and over pushing the bike, my legs started to go and my pace was dropping and my original idea of a 3.10 was disappearing fast, I hadn’t walked at any point yet so just after the 5km to go mark, I walked my first aid station. Went to a port-a-loo, tried to pee and expelled a huge amount of toxic gas. Got out of the Portaloo and felt immediately better, GI issues eased.

Picked up the pace and a huge smile started to emerge on my face, I was going to finish this. Stopped with the wife and kids with 500m to go and gave hugs and kisses all round. Hit the red carpet with a clear funnel in front of me. Paul Rutherford you are an Ironman boomed out, hands to the sky, ecstatic at what I had achieved for my first IM race.

Finish Time: 9.13.25 (Overall 94, Div 16)

I’d like to thank all for the wonderful support during the day, we had 11 in my crew and probably 40 in total from Sligo who really did the Irish Proud with their decibel level after a long day under the sun, all the supporters than lined the course really did make a great effort and it was helped immensely.

16th in my category and 10mins off Kona – a better paced marathon and a stronger swim might’ve got me there. But as learning curves go - lots to take away. As for me I move up a category next year, my time would’ve put me on the top step of that podium, so I don’t think I’m done with IM just yet, the Kona carrot and a promise of a trip to Hawaii, might persuade the missus to let me train that little bit harder and longer next year. We’ll see..

I’m sure the majority of people who read these forums are happy for the 194 Irish who signed up and competed to the best of their ability in Barcelona. I know I am.

Peace Out.

fantastic Paul .. well done .. you all did Sligo Tri Club proud .. and you are a great inspiration! .. just a pity about the run route you organised at Lissadell!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

peter kern

iarmhi1975 wrote: »

Had a closer look at some of the times, then had a look at some times for bike on double Olympic Athy and compared them to my own. In one instance in 12mins quicker over 80km but when i compare Barcelona time I end up being 5 minutes slower. Thats some improvement and I want the secrets:rolleyes:

you must have been drafting in athy ;-)