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Jobstown water protesters to be charged

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    #362
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    NorthStars wrote: »
    Look, the thing is that from an outside view, the Jobstown thing was a set up.
    Burton knew what would happen, she knew about the strong anti-water sentiment in Tallaght, she knew AGS would be put in an almost impossible position and she knew what the consequences would be.

    She played politics with the force in order to discredit her government's detractors.

    I'd suggest some high level meetings between AGS and the Dept of Justice to try and alleviate the obvious mistrust developing between some sections of society and AGS, but that old clique means it wouldn't happen.

    Politicians are always playing politics with AGS. The fact remains that she was the victim of false imprisonment. Saying she shouldn't have gone to the wrong neighbourhood is wrong on so many levels. Being in the wrong place does not make you a free target.

    Maybe she did play politics to make her opponents look bad. But that only works if they act the part, which they did. And that's all on them.


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    #363
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    The fact remains that she was the victim of false imprisonment.



    Allegedly.


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    #364
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    NorthStars wrote: »
    Allegedly.

    You can word your posts as vaguely as you want. I'm satisfied from all the footage I've seen that she was a victim of false imprisonment so I'll refer to it as such.


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    #365
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    You can word your posts as vaguely as you want. I'm satisfied from all the footage I've seen that she was a victim of false imprisonment so I'll refer to it as such.

    Fair enough.
    I'll let the court decide on that.

    BTW, if you're satisfied that was the case, why did members of your force sit back and allow that to happen?
    Bordering on being accomplices if that's the case....


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    #366
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    NorthStars wrote: »
    Fair enough.
    I'll let the court decide on that.

    BTW, if you're satisfied that was the case, why did members of your force sit back and allow that to happen?
    Bordering on being accomplices if that's the case....

    Courts don't decide if someone was the victim of a crime.

    As to your second question. I would presume the intention was to end the incident without violence by negotiating with the leader. Seems to have worked.


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    #367
    gladrags
    Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    You can word your posts as vaguely as you want. I'm satisfied from all the footage I've seen that she was a victim of false imprisonment so I'll refer to it as such.

    Yeah,but thats just you,there is a need to be more than satisfied,its called innocnce,in a democratic society.


    Until proven guilty in a court of law.


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    #368
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Courts don't decide if someone was the victim of a crime.


    Courts decide whether someone is innocent or guilty of a crime though.
    Not you, not your commissioner, not the minister for justice.

    The DPP decides if someone has been the victim of a crime and sends it forward (or not) for trial.

    It's quite the coincidence in this case that seemingly Brendan Howlin's niece in the DPP's office decided there's charges to answer.

    I hope this aspect of the case is investigated as thoroughly. I won't hold my breath though.


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    #369
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Courts don't decide if someone was the victim of a crime.
    Courts grant a defendant the right to be presumed innocent, until otherwise proven, and convicted by the jury.
    That makes the rest of your 'false imprisonment' posts contradictory in the extreme.

    Keep churning them out though.


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    #370
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    NorthStars wrote: »
    Courts decide whether someone is innocent or guilty of a crime though.
    Not you, not your commissioner, not the minister for justice.

    The DPP decides if someone has been the victim of a crime and sends it forward (or not) for trial.

    So even by your own standard, I was right to call her a victim of crime. So are you just arguing random points for the sake of it?


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    #371
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    So even by your own standard, I was right to call her a victim of crime.

    Ok, now tell me why your people allowed this crime to happen right in front of their eyes.

    Do 'operational reasons' allow for a crime to be committed without intervention?

    Or was it that there was no real crime being committed, AGS were assessing the situation, asked Murphy for his help to resolve it and then dreampt up the charges later?


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    #372
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    NorthStars wrote: »
    Ok, now tell me why your people allowed this crime to happen right in front of their eyes.

    To prevent a bad situation from escalating.


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    #373
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    NorthStars wrote: »
    Ok, now tell me why your people allowed this crime to happen right in front of their eyes.

    Do 'operational reasons' allow for a crime to be committed without intervention?

    Or was it that there was no real crime being committed, AGS were assessing the situation, asked Murphy for his help to resolve it and then dreampt up the charges later?

    So you accept now that she was the victim of a crime, even by your own standards. That's getting somewhere. As to your new question, I already gave my opinion on that a few posts back when you asked it already. You seem to be implying that negotiating peacefully with a person to stop a crime is somehow an endorsement of their actions. Even though I'm full sure that if the Gardaí on the day had used force you would be on here claiming that it wasn't needed and they should have negotiated.


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    #374
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Graham wrote: »
    To prevent a bad situation from escalating.

    That worked well, didn't it?

    The coppers are being used as a pawn by this government and they know and accept it.
    Still, better not bite the hand that feeds, eh....


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    #375
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    So you accept now that she was the victim of a crime, even by your own standards.

    Eh, no.
    I accept that you believe she was the victim of a crime.
    That's your opinion and as I said, I'll let a judge and jury decide if your opinion is right.


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    #376
    gladrags
    Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    So even by your own standard, I was right to call her a victim of crime. So are you just arguing random points for the sake of it?

    Your missing the point,you may be satisfied of their guilt,or any other individual may be satisfied,or for that matter the population of this country maybe satisfied,or convinced of their guilt.

    They are still innocent,until proven guilty.

    If it were to be left to opinions,as to who is guilty or innocent,we would indeed be in a sorry state.

    Mob Rule perhaps.


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    #377
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    NorthStars wrote: »
    That worked well, didn't it?

    Yes
    NorthStars wrote: »
    Eh, no.
    I accept that you believe she was the victim of a crime.
    That's your opinion and as I said, I'll let a judge and jury decide if your opinion is right.

    You specifically said that the DPP decides if someone is a victim of a crime. The most up to date report states that she has decided Joan Burton was the victim of a crime. Are you now going back on your assertion that the DPP decides if someone has been the victim of a crime?


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    #378
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    NorthStars wrote: »
    That worked well, didn't it?

    Very well, nobody got hurt and anyone that broke the law will face the consequences of their actions before a Court.

    A job well done.


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    #379
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Yes



    You specifically said that the DPP decides if someone is a victim of a crime. The most up to date report states that she has decided Joan Burton was the victim of a crime. Are you now going back on your assertion that the DPP decides if someone has been the victim of a crime?

    You're good with the auld semantics ok, I'll give you that.

    Will anyone in AGS be investigating the member of the DPP's office who's closely related to Brendan Howlin and how that relationship may have influenced the decision to bring cases to court?

    Any whistleblowers around? Or do they all keep their heads down now?


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    #380
    gladrags
    Registered Users Posts: 6,028 ✭✭✭gladrags


    Graham wrote: »
    Very well, nobody got hurt and anyone that broke the law will face the consequences of their actions before a Court.

    A job well done.

    Thats a contradiction,no one has broken the law,until due process decides otherwise.


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    #381
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Graham wrote: »
    Very well, nobody got hurt and anyone that broke the law will face the consequences of their actions before a Court.

    A job well done.

    Grand so.
    Will you, and others, accept the outcome of the court cases?


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    #382
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    NorthStars wrote: »
    You're good with the auld semantics ok, I'll give you that.

    Semantics? That's the best you can do to avoid the fact you are blatantly contradicting yourself?
    NorthStars wrote: »
    Will anyone in AGS be investigating the member of the DPP's office who's closely related to Brendan Howlin and how that relationship may have influenced the decision to bring cases to court?

    Any whistleblowers around? Or do they all keep their heads down now?

    People aren't usually investigated based solely on their family. If you have some legitimate concerns you should report them to someone though.


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    #383
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    NorthStars wrote: »
    Grand so.
    Will you, and others, accept the outcome of the court cases?

    Will you? You can't even accept your own conclusions.


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    #384
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »

    People aren't usually investigated based solely on their family. If you have some legitimate concerns you should report them to someone though.

    Maybe I'll pop in to my local Garda station and ask them to investigate.
    The blank expression would be priceless.


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    #385
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    NorthStars wrote: »
    Maybe I'll pop in to my local Garda station and ask them to investigate.
    The blank expression would be priceless.

    I imagine if you report someone for a crime and your only evidence of that crime is a family connection between two people the expression will be one of pity.


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    #386
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I imagine if you report someone for a crime and your only evidence of that crime is a family connection between two people the expression will be one of pity.

    LOL.
    Cowards to a man, hiding behind a badge.


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    #387
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    NorthStars wrote: »
    LOL.
    Cowards to a man, hiding behind a badge.

    Congratulations, you've successfully gone from reasoned argument, through contradictory statement straight to simple insult in a few pages.


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    #388
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    NorthStars wrote: »
    Maybe I'll pop in to my local Garda station and ask them to investigate.
    The blank expression would be priceless.

    Why would your expression be blank? They might take pity on you and offer you some tea and sympathy.


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    #389
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I imagine if you report someone for a crime and your only evidence of that crime is a family connection between two people the expression will be one of pity.

    +1

    I can only imagine how what conversation would go.

    I'd like to report a crime, I have absolutely no evidence of a crime nor anything else that may suggest a crime may have taken place but there's a family connection so I'd like the Gardai to investigate just in case a crime was committed. I fully expect you to immediately drag in the people who I think might/possibly/could have done something illegal in for immediate questioning.

    If you refuse to investigate my baseless allegations I will of course be leaving this Garda station and telling everyone the only reason you're refusing to investigate is political policing.


  • Options
    #390
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why would your expression be blank? They might take pity on you and offer you some tea and sympathy.

    Miles and miles and miles.......eh?


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    #391
    NorthStars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,120 ✭✭✭NorthStars


    Graham wrote: »
    +1

    I can only imagine how what conversation would go.

    I'd like to report a crime, I have absolutely no evidence of a crime nor anything else that may suggest a crime may have taken place but there's a family connection so I'd like the Gardai to investigate just in case a crime was committed. I fully expect you to immediately drag in the people who I think might/possibly/could have done something illegal in for immediate questioning.

    If you refuse to investigate my baseless allegations I will of course be leaving this Garda station and telling everyone the only reason you're refusing to investigate is political policing.

    What crime are you referring to?
    Clique?


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