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Jobstown water protesters to be charged

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    #1262
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    OldGoat wrote: »
    The riot police showed restraint, it's what they are trained to do - to react to orders rather than provocation. The lack of arrests on the spot defused a volatile situation and that was a well judged call by the Gardai.
    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    You don't seem to know too much about managing situations, my friend.

    You don't have to be an Einstein to figure out the reason,unless of course you know quite well and think posters in here are fools.

    Who do you really think you are fooling here, c'mon.

    Pull the other leg. I can't think of a single country where People slashing Police car tyres would not be arrested immediately. Go try it yourself. Same with assaulting a police officer, It does not happen. People would have been arrested there and then. It's nothing about constraint or restraint the Garda have a duty of care.


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    #1263
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    This new legal defence is very interesting. So if you ever take hostages you should just negotiate with police. That way they can't really claim there was any crime because they didn't shoot you straight away.


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    #1264
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    This new legal defence is very interesting. So if you ever take hostages you should just negotiate with police. That way they can't really claim there was any crime because they didn't shoot you straight away.


    One seems to be under the wrong impression the Garda cannot ignore crimes happening in-front of their eyes they don't get the choice to ignore a crime. If there where crimes committed in the presence of the Garda they have to arrest people for them. I understand in Riots for example CCTV footage afterwards is used to further verify who was doing things and add other charges. And to see if anyone was not arrested and guilty of a crime. It's plainly ridiculous to say Garda let people assault their colleges in view and attack Garda cars and slash the tires and no one was arrested.


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    #1265
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭AlanG


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Being "threatening" is purely subjective. I could feel threatened by teenagers hanging around outside a Spar, but unless they physically touch me I have to accept that they are not committing a crime by staring at me.

    They can be - Assault in law is committing battery or putting someone in a position where reasonably feel they may be subject to imminent battery. (battery is what you are referring to when someone hits a person). I think it is clear that our democratically elected TD was in reasonable fear of battery - therefor it is assault under Irish law.


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    #1266
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    AlanG wrote: »
    They can be - Assault in law is committing battery or putting someone in a position where reasonably feel they may be subject to imminent battery. (battery is what you are referring to when someone hits a person). I think it is clear that our democratically elected TD was in reasonable fear of battery - therefor it is assault under Irish law.

    Really care to explain the magic powers that let people pass through solid objects ?


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    #1267
    OldGoat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Pull the other leg. I can't think of a single country where People slashing Police car tyres would not be arrested immediately. Go try it yourself. Same with assaulting a police officer, It does not happen. People would have been arrested there and then. It's nothing about constraint or restraint the Garda have a duty of care.
    Taken in isolation yes I'd be expected to be arrested on the spot for slashing tyres but the (alleged) incidence of tyre slashing was not in isolation. It was part of a volatile situation where tempers were already running high. Can you, hand on heart, say to me that if a Garda walked over to someone slashing a tyre during the protest arrested him that the surrounding protesters would have sat back and not 'protested' the arrest? Would cool heads have prevailed? Would you have risked peoples safety on that judgement call?

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



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    #1268
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users Posts: 19,482 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Pull the other leg. I can't think of a single country where People slashing Police car tyres would not be arrested immediately. Go try it yourself. Same with assaulting a police officer, It does not happen. People would have been arrested there and then. It's nothing about constraint or restraint the Garda have a duty of care.

    You really do think people are fools!!

    Read what Old Goat said, then read what I said, exactly the same in different terms.

    Stop wasting your time, lad


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    #1269
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    OldGoat wrote: »
    Taken in isolation yes I'd be expected to be arrested on the spot for slashing tyres but the (alleged) incidence of tyre slashing was not in isolation. It was part of a volatile situation where tempers were already running high. Can you, hand on heart, say to me that if a Garda walked over to someone slashing a tyre during the protest arrested him that the surrounding protesters would have sat back and not 'protested' the arrest? Would cool heads have prevailed? Would you have risked peoples safety on that judgement call?

    No it's not credible at all to let someone commit a crime and not get arrested. People get arrested at protests and riots all the time. As far as I am aware if you carry a warrant card you cannot witness a crime and not intervene. It's simply not credible to say they just let people get on with all this violence. That leads to 2 options. There was nothing remotely going on that's been reported after the fact. Or The Gards broke the law themselves and let criminal actions happen in-front of them.


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    #1270
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Streetwalker wrote: »
    Nope 50% of those registered have paid. Either way if the government view 50% as success then they are in bigger trouble than I thought. :)
    That was always the case! The figures given were for ALL Irish Water customers, not just those who registered.


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    #1271
    OldGoat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    No it's not credible at all to let someone commit a crime and not get arrested.
    Yes it is. Happens all the time. Conceder the situation of police watching small time dealers in-order to gather evidence about bigger dealers down the line. You argument holds no weight.

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



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    #1272
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That was always the case! The figures given were for ALL Irish Water customers, not just those who registered.

    Proof, It says company says 51% no Data. Its a very suspect number to portray a majority and just over 50% to try not look to suspicious.


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    #1273
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    OldGoat wrote: »
    Yes it is. Happens all the time. Conceder the situation of police watching small time dealers in-order to gather evidence about bigger dealers down the line. You argument holds no weight.

    That would be undercover work, They work via different rules. A beat cop does not have the same remit. A Garda beat cop is not a detective generally.


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    #1274
    OldGoat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    That would be undercover work, They work via different rules. A beat cop does not have the same remit. A Garda beat cop is not a detective generally.
    Source?

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



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    #1275
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    OldGoat wrote: »
    Source?

    You fist you said they can witness a crime and not do anything. I won't hold my breath.


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    #1276
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users Posts: 19,482 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    That would be undercover work, They work via different rules. A beat cop does not have the same remit. A Garda beat cop is not a detective generally.

    I know the reason why there were no arrests at the scene,you know the reason, Old Goat knows the reason, why don't you stop wasting people's time.

    You do yourself no favours carrying on like that.

    It's a foolish attitude to take, lad


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    #1277
    OldGoat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    You fist you said they can witness a crime and not do anything. I won't hold my breath.

    No, you claimed that AGS have to arrest someone if they see them committing a crime. I simply gave a plausible example of where it might not happen.
    One seems to be under the wrong impression the Garda cannot ignore crimes happening in-front of their eyes they don't get the choice to ignore a crime. If there where crimes committed in the presence of the Garda they have to arrest people for them.
    You seem to be making up AGS rulebooks now.

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



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    #1278
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    I know the reason why there were no arrests at the scene,you know the reason, Old Goat knows the reason, why don't you stop wasting people's time.

    You do yourself no favours carrying on like that.

    It's a foolish attitude to take, lad

    I'm guessing one cannot link to laws allowing a Garda who is not undercover to witness a crime and within a reasonable period of time perform an arrest ? As what was brought up was in relation to Garda that are detectives they have different rules. Well different in regards to witnessing crime to do with Vice for example. As witnessing an assault or criminal damage is not going to lead one to someone higher up in the chain like in drugs cases. Assault would be assault same with criminal damage.


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    #1279
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Proof, It says company says 51% no Data. Its a very suspect number to portray a majority and just over 50% to try not look to suspicious.

    Back in July, 1,300,000 had registered. 675,000 paid the first bill, meaning that over 50% of those who had registered paid.


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    #1280
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    OldGoat wrote: »
    No, you claimed that AGS have to arrest someone if they see them committing a crime. I simply gave a plausible example of where it might not happen.
    You seem to be making up AGS rulebooks now.

    No you used drugs as an example, Drugs squad have completely different remit they generally have to get the big fish and can ignore smaller ones for a time.

    Assault is assault criminal damage is criminal damage that cannot be ignored please link otherwise.


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    #1281
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Back in July, 1,300,000 had registered. 675,000 paid the first bill, meaning that over 50% of those who had registered paid.

    Seems very convenient.


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    #1282
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    Seems very convenient.

    Not another conspiracy.
    I really think this thread needs to be moved :)


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    #1283
    OldGoat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I'm guessing one cannot link to laws allowing a Garda who is not undercover to witness a crime and within a reasonable period of time perform an arrest ? As what was brought up was in relation to Garda that are detectives they have different rules. Well different in regards to witnessing crime to do with Vice for example. As witnessing an assault or criminal damage is not going to lead one to someone higher up in the chain like in drugs cases. Assault would be assault same with criminal damage.
    Why are you asking me to prove concepts that you are assuming? You made a statement, I asked for a source so I can educate myself, you failed to provide. Your argument holds no weight...again.

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



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    #1284
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Where is this weird logic coming from that you have to be arrested at the time of an offence for it to count?


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    #1285
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    OldGoat wrote: »
    Why are you asking me to prove concepts that you are assuming? You made a statement, I asked for a source so I can educate myself, you failed to provide. Your argument holds no weight...again.

    I asked for a source first, Your example was to do with Detectives. Please link the relevant section about Garda beat cops ability to ignore crimes. Even putting it in a sentence looks odd. Garda able to Ignore crime....


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    #1286
    OldGoat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    I asked for a source first, Your example was to do with Detectives. Please link the relevant section about Garda beat cops ability to ignore crimes. Even putting it in a sentence looks odd. Garda able to Ignore crime....
    You've lost any credibility I may have given you. I'm done.

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



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    #1287
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Where is this weird logic coming from that you have to be arrested at the time of an offence for it to count?

    Garda witnessing an offence. Please gis a link to the ability of the Garda to ignore laws being broken in-front of their eyes and not having to arrest within a reasonable amount of time. Crimes like assault or criminal damage.


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    #1288
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    OldGoat wrote: »
    You've lost any credibility I may have given you. I'm done.

    So that's a "No I can't" link.


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    #1289
    OldGoat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    darkpagandeath wrote: »
    So that's a "No I can't" link.
    It's more "No I can't be bothered banging my head against your brick wall."

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



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    #1290
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Garda pulls a man over for dangerous driving. While taking his details at the side of the road a second vehicle drives by at the wrong side of the road. The Garda remains with the first vehicle to take all the details necessary but gets the reg of the second vehicle. Can he follow up with prosecuting the second driver even though he didn't attempt to pull him over? Of course he can.

    Maybe a more serious crime is needed. Gardaí respond to a report of joyriding. They watch the car doing doughnuts because the locals are known for ramming patrol cars. When the car eventually crashes into a wall they move in and arrest the occupants. Can the defence question why they didn't attempt to stop the vehicle after they are charged with endangerment?


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    #1291
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,465 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Garda pulls a man over for dangerous driving. While taking his details at the side of the road a second vehicle drives by at the wrong side of the road. The Garda remains with the first vehicle to take all the details necessary but gets the reg of the second vehicle. Can he follow up with prosecuting the second driver even though he didn't attempt to pull him over? Of course he can.

    Maybe a more serious crime is needed. Gardaí respond to a report of joyriding. They watch the car doing doughnuts because the locals are known for ramming patrol cars. When the car eventually crashes into a wall they move in and arrest the occupants. Can the defence question why they didn't attempt to stop the vehicle after they are charged with endangerment?

    Very good example, Falls down with the one officer. Obvioiuslty there are cases where a Garda can pursue a more dangerous crime. As far as I know it's only for immediate dangers like excessive speeding when you are already doing a person for insurance. Or letting a drunk away having witness a serious assault.

    Now let us know how many Garda where at the protest ?


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