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Irish Rail Fine
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alig123aileen wrote: »hilly bill yes I am qualified to give legal advice and also have a degree in data protection freedom of information and financial regulation. Anyway I didn't think one had to quotes ones degrees before commenting on boards so thank you for raising the game on adverts to such an advanced level! I take it you have a masters degree in non constructive feedback. I suggest you do some study on Irish law and the fact that kids age 16 are not in jail but in correctional facility/schoolsand kids at 17 who offend can only be offered JLO Garda Liason if they commit a criminal act to try to stop them from crime and Kids can only be placed in jails from age 18. Our law does not make the parent responsible in court or in money terms for a child's actions though a parent may offer to pay for criminal damage done by a child. . The child does not become an adult until age 18 and is then fully accountable in court for a crime.
Don't post legal advice again. It's against the rules of Boards.ie and the charter.
-- moderatorHilly Bill wrote: »Are you qualified to give legal advice?
Don't bother asking people are they qualified for anything -- and if you think anybody is breaking the rules, then please report it.
-- moderator0 -
Moderator I didn't post legal advice I simply gave my own opinion based on what I know which is what all posters do. I was challenged by a contributor and asked was I qualified to give legal advice and I simply replied. I should not have been challenged on my personal opinion but am entitled to defend myself. Thanks0
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alig123aileen wrote: »Moderator I didn't post legal advice I simply gave my own opinion based on what I know which is what all posters do. I was challenged by a contributor and asked was I qualified to give legal advice and I simply replied. I should not have been challenged on my personal opinion but am entitled to defend myself. Thanks
Don't reply to moderation -- read the charter before posting again.
If you feel the need to post smart replies defending your self please use the report a post function rather than breaking the charter.0 -
Hilly Bill wrote: »
You forgot Joe Duffy
Doe Juffy is an empty threat
Not condoning it as a method but it kills 2 stones with the one bird, the OP gets their issue sorted and some poor sap doesn't get their ears bent at the other end of the phone line0 -
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If this goes to court
IÉ will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the ticket office in Balbriggan was open when the op's child was there trying to buy a ticket. Before the op's child has to offer any defender
But if I've have not got a witness who was present, they will find it very hard to prove their case0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »If this goes to court
IÉ will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the ticket office in Balbriggan was open when the op's child was there trying to buy a ticket. Before the op's child has to offer any defender
But if I've have not got a witness who was present, they will find it very hard to prove their case
They won't - it's a strict liability offence.0 -
The age of criminal responsibility in Ireland is generally 12. You will note the existence of the Children Court.alig123aileen wrote: »Btw a 16 yr old cannot be prosecuted in court in Ireland nor can her parent be held responsible which is pretty ludicrous but true.
http://www.iyjs.ie/en/IYJS/Pages/WP08000067Age of Criminal Responsibility
On 16 October 2006, under the Children Act 2001, the age of criminal responsibility was effectively raised from 7 to 12 years. Under the new provisions, no child under the age of 12 years can be charged with an offence. An exception is made for 10 and 11 year-olds charged with very serious offences, such as unlawful killing, a rape offence or aggravated sexual assault. In addition, the Director of Public Prosecutions must give consent for any child under the age of 14 years to be charged.
I don't think Irish Rail is covered by the FoI Act.Alternatively ask them for the name of their freedom of information officer and say you want a copy of your file under FOI.0 -
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This conversation keeps coming up again and again but it really is pretty simple. Don't board a train if you don't have a ticket unless you are sure there is no way of buying the ticket you need at the station. That is the only valid excuse. The following will not work
- I forgot my pass
- I didn't have change
- I didn't have time
- Somebody told me
If a staff member tells you to board a train, ask for his name or staff number and even then you are taking a chance. If you want to go from Balbriggan to Mullingar, you'll probably be OK if the station office was closed as the TVM won't sell you that ticket.
If you take a chance and get caught, you'll just need to chalk it up to experience. You simply can't get on a train without a ticket any more and there is really no excuse. This is a result of widespread fare evasion and really Irish Rail can't afford to be nice about this any more. In fact zero tolerance is a lot fairer to everyone as young lads from the wrong side of town will always get discriminated against while pretty well-spoken young girls who burst into tears when confronted will get let off even if it's all just an act.0 -
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The age of criminal responsibility in Ireland is generally 12. You will note the existence of the Children Court.
http://www.iyjs.ie/en/IYJS/Pages/WP08000067
I don't think Irish Rail is covered by the FoI Act.
But are covered by data protection0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »How does any passenger board in Broombridge legally so?
They're covered by the 'authorisation' provision in the by-laws.0 -
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Carawaystick wrote: »How does any passenger board in Broombridge legally so?
Because there isn't a means to purchase a ticket. If the tvm's wasn't working in balbriggan then the fine wouldn't have to be paid.0 -
If you take a chance and get caught, you'll just need to chalk it up to experience.
you will not need to. you can if you want to however. you have another option. seek legal advice from a professional and go to court and defend it, or get every little detail you can for your appeal.You simply can't get on a train without a ticket any more
you can in certain situations, and the bi-law seems to agree.there is really no excuse.
there is a couple. which it looks like the bi-law agreesThis is a result of widespread fare evasion
which anything supposibly being done to deal with it isn't having any effect by the looks of it.really Irish Rail can't afford to be nice about this any more.
really they can. their tactics for fare evasion are a failure and are just bury the head in the sand nonsense so to not take on staff to actually get to grips with it. penalty fares don't work, never have never will.In fact zero tolerance is a lot fairer to everyone as young lads from the wrong side of town will always get discriminated against while pretty well-spoken young girls who burst into tears when confronted will get let off even if it's all just an act.
take on staff to actually police it properly and have stations manned. eliminating any potential for people having issues buying tickets. of course it won't be done because the current system is a sure fire way of getting a quick buck while the issues continue.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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Hilly Bill wrote: »Because there isn't a means to purchase a ticket. If the tvm's wasn't working in balbriggan then the fine wouldn't have to be paid.
But Jawgap said it was a strict liability offence.
Now you're saying if the tvm wasn't working it would be ok, while th ebyelaws state if the office is closed its ok.
IÉ would have to get someone into court to say the ticket machine was working and it was simple for a dyslexic child to use the tvm, so the child should have used that.0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »But Jawgap said it was a strict liability offence.
Now you're saying if the tvm wasn't working it would be ok, while th ebyelaws state if the office is closed its ok.
IÉ would have to get someone into court to say the ticket machine was working and it was simple for a dyslexic child to use the tvm, so the child should have used that.
"Mild" Dyslexia coupled with not bothering to wear her glasses according to her father, not exactly grounds for dismissal.0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »But Jawgap said it was a strict liability offence.
Now you're saying if the tvm wasn't working it would be ok, while th ebyelaws state if the office is closed its ok.
IÉ would have to get someone into court to say the ticket machine was working and it was simple for a dyslexic child to use the tvm, so the child should have used that.
It's simple, it's OK when you have no means of purchasing a ticket and i don't mean the lack of cash.. Basically you have a ticket vending person and a ticket vending machine, when both are not working it's OK to travel and pay at the destination. In this case if the rpu wasn't there that night nobody would have purchased a ticket on arrival in laytown if they got on without a ticket. If you take a chance there is always the chance that you can loses well as win.0 -
Hilly Bill wrote: »would you have not just gone and pick her up if you were that concerned for her safety?
Maybe the travel time of 15 mins leaving her on her own in the station would be enough for her to be robbed/raped/murdered/abducted???
Personal safety above waiting around in my opinion.
Still dont see any defence for the non purchasing of a ticket...but why did the op not ask/tell the RPA guys in the station?0 -
Being on her own wasn't an issue until the fine.0
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he did tell them i thoughtMaybe the travel time of 15 mins leaving her on her own in the station would be enough for her to be robbed/raped/murdered/abducted???
Personal safety above waiting around in my opinion.
Still dont see any defence for the non purchasing of a ticket...but why did the op not ask/tell the RPA guys in the station?ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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well the fact he told her to get on the train suggests it probably was. all be it only they would know for sure either wayHilly Bill wrote: »Being on her own wasn't an issue until the fine.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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I honestly cannot believe what I'm reading here!
I've had my beefs with RPU and Irish Rail staff in general, even had a newbie RPU guy once tell my emigrant friend Leap Visitors can't be used by Irish people and had a 10 min argument about it..but FFSAKE!
Reaching into the constitution...THE F____G CONSTITUTION to try to grasp for straws about a train fare? Are we serious?
[Excuse #1] "The machines don't sell all tickets"
They sell 95% of tickets. They sell all SHZ tickets and MHZ and LHZ tickets. They sell monthly and weekly tickets. They sell child tickets.
The only tickets they don't sell are:
-"Through tickets" so if you want a ticket that covers Bray to Newry sure you need the booking office
-Some Luas/DART/Bus or LUAS/DART or DART/BUS combos but most people use Leaps for these now anyway as capping gets you a CHEAPER de-facto LUAS/DART/BUS period ticket anyway!
-The DSP grey €0.00 tickets but if you have a FreePass smartcard now you dont' need them anyway
[Excuse # 2] "I only had a €50 note".
THATS. YOUR. F___G. PROBLEM! Do what the rest of us grown adults in the real world do, get your ass up out of bed 10 minutes earlier, go to the newsagent and break the €50. Or maybe even if you wanna be REALLY CRAZY plan your day out the night before and think "Ok I need to get the train better make sure I've change" or if you wanna be just plain out there buy a period ticket or a Leap and save yourself some cash
[Excuse #3] "I was gonna pay at the other end"
First of all...WERE YOU? Or were you gonna just tail gate through someone in front of you? This argument falls to bits very quick when you think about it. If they allowed that to happen then we could all just not pay until we saw the RPU then say we'll pay at the other end. If that was ok none of us would have to pay our fare 90% of the time because most of the time we'd not run into any RPU staff to compel us to do so.
These are all "Dog ate my homework" excuses that should not be coming out of the mouths of anyone past Primary School. BTW my bs-alarm goes off whenever I hear someone has a 'mild' case of an illness, sure there are grades of many illnesses but it's often claimed in illnesses where it's something the person has self diagnosed or there is no 'mild' version of it, I don't know what the case is in this case but I get suspicious whenever I hear it. It seems forgetting the glasses was the key thing preventing her from seeing the screen rather than anything else.
For anyone who wonders why, when you offer the likes of a Garda or an RPU guy a perfectly reasonable explanation for the situation in front of you, they just flat out don't buy it even though it's the truth THIS IS WHY, because they get lied to and bs'd all day every day, day in day out week after week. This is why when those of us who are honest actors make a genuine mistake they don't show us any flexibility, because you have people trying to say "well er when you squint at the bye-laws and cover one eye and light the ticket on fire it could be interpreted to mean that you can get away with it if..."
In court, if you can prove your INTENT was to pay your fare / tag on etc if you can prove your intent was not to evade the fare you might win
I also not the very same people who were doing incredible, breathtaking mental gymnastics to defend that mental case of a woman sitting in a prebooked seat, making the absurd assertion that if it was not on the display you don't have to move, are the same ones grasping at straws in this case. It's actually hugely disturbing to me to see how many wantonly irrational people are out there. To know that such people vote and drive cars...'they're out there' has never had more resonance for me0 -
[Excuse #1] "The machines don't sell all tickets"
They sell 95% of tickets. They sell all SHZ tickets and MHZ and LHZ tickets. They sell monthly and weekly tickets. They sell child tickets.
The only tickets they don't sell are:
-"Through tickets" so if you want a ticket that covers Bray to Newry sure you need the booking office
-Some Luas/DART/Bus or LUAS/DART or DART/BUS combos but most people use Leaps for these now anyway as capping gets you a CHEAPER de-facto LUAS/DART/BUS period ticket anyway!
-The DSP grey €0.00 tickets but if you have a FreePass smartcard now you dont' need them anyway
so, therefore they don't sell 100% of relevant tickets to rail. so not an excuse[Excuse # 2] "I only had a €50 note".
THATS. YOUR. F___G. PROBLEM! Do what the rest of us grown adults in the real world do, get your ass up out of bed 10 minutes earlier, go to the newsagent and break the €50. Or maybe even if you wanna be REALLY CRAZY plan your day out the night before and think "Ok I need to get the train better make sure I've change" or if you wanna be just plain out there buy a period ticket or a Leap and save yourself some cash
not an excuse. many of these options you suggest aren't always options. doesn't mean people aren't grown adults or that you are.[Excuse #3] "I was gonna pay at the other end"
First of all...WERE YOU? Or were you gonna just tail gate through someone in front of you? This argument falls to bits very quick when you think about it. If they allowed that to happen then we could all just not pay until we saw the RPU then say we'll pay at the other end. If that was ok none of us would have to pay our fare 90% of the time because most of the time we'd not run into any RPU staff to compel us to do so.
rubbish. there should be an RPU guy at every station within the dart/suburban area, or on the long distance trains which are a lot less frequent. considering fare evasion is a major issue on irish rail, that would be the smart thing to do. it would possibly pay for itself. they can issue tickets as well ensuring people have no reason not to purchase one. if one hasn't the money then thats their problem unless change can be got. once that happens none of your senarrios matter. infact, "i will pay when i get to the other end" seems to be the case with broombridge station.These are all "Dog ate my homework" excuses that should not be coming out of the mouths of anyone past Primary School.
these are genuine issues which can happen from time to time and if there is evidence that can be provided to back them up then they can be dealt with. if evidence can't be provided by the person thats their problem.BTW my bs-alarm goes off whenever I hear someone has a 'mild' case of an illness.
well your BS alarm is irrelevant. if you are a medical professional and you have major experience of said illnesses then we can discuss your opinions in a thread on the relevant forum.sure there are grades of many illnesses but it's often claimed in illnesses where it's something the person has self diagnosed or there is no 'mild' version of it,
can happen, but thats where evidence to back it up comes into it.I don't know what the case is in this case but I get suspicious whenever I hear it.
because you don't like to hear it, or you have a relevant qualification in medicine?For anyone who wonders why, when you offer the likes of a Garda or an RPU guy a perfectly reasonable explanation for the situation in front of you, they just flat out don't buy it even though it's the truth THIS IS WHY, because they get lied to and bs'd all day every day, day in day out week after week.
for anyone who wonders why, the reason they do it that way is because its easy revenue, yet they don't actually have to deal with the issue of fare evasion properly. this way makes it look like the issue is really being dealt with, when really its not as much as it should be. unless they can prove the person is actually lying then nobody cares what the RPU guy believes or not. the person themself has to provide evidence, so the RPU guy should be expected to prove they are telling lies, and nothing less should be expected.This is why when those of us who are honest actors make a genuine mistake they don't show us any flexibility, because you have people trying to say "well er when you squint at the bye-laws and cover one eye and light the ticket on fire it could be interpreted to mean that you can get away with it if..."
no, its because its easy money and people pay up. if the evasion simply went straight to court and the RPU were forced to prove the other side wasn't telling the truth and the other side forced to prove they were, then it would go a long way.I also not the very same people who were doing incredible, breathtaking mental gymnastics to defend that mental case of a woman sitting in a prebooked seat, making the absurd assertion that if it was not on the display you don't have to move, are the same ones grasping at straws in this case. It's actually hugely disturbing to me to see how many wantonly irrational people are out there. To know that such people vote and drive cars...'they're out there' has never had more resonance for me
they are rational. its up to IE to have proof that a seat is reserved. that means the seat reservation working properly. if they can't be bothered to do that, then the person is entitled to a refund i believe.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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end of the road wrote: »so, therefore they don't sell 100% of relevant tickets to rail. so not an excuseend of the road wrote: »not an excuse. many of these options you suggest aren't always options. doesn't mean people aren't grown adults or that you are.
You can get a ticket with whats in the machines, you may not for example be able to get a ticket Bray to Newry but you CAN , if stuck, get Bray to Connollly and then get your newry ticket in the machine at Connolly so you can get a valid ticket. Or you can be a child and get on the train anyway knowing you had an chance to buy a proper ticket.
You are ignoring the point, on purpose no doubt, YOU DON'T NEED ALL AVAILABLE TICKETS because the most used tickets for 95% of destinations are available. Trying to use that as an excuse is just being a child.
An RPU guy assuming the average industrial wage, at every station would loose more money than it would gain, it would be totally uneconomical a junior cert business student would realize thatend of the road wrote: »rubbish. there should be an RPU guy at every station within the dart/suburban area, or on the long distance trains which are a lot less frequent. considering fare evasion is a major issue on irish rail, that would be the smart thing to do. it would possibly pay for itself. they can issue tickets as well ensuring people have no reason not to purchase one. if one hasn't the money then thats their problem unless change can be got. once that happens none of your senarrios matter. infact, "i will pay when i get to the other end" seems to be the case with broombridge station.
There is actually no reason for the booking office staff, they could save a fortune here. Do a hiring freeze, put all existing ticket options into the machines, and only replace staff who leave at the key CC stations or stations with major interchanges and hubs like Dun Laoghaire. A little imagination could actually make Irish rail revenue neutral.
Broombridge, from what I understand has neither a machine OR a booking office, and in that the rules say you can board and pay at the end but that's only because there is no opportunity to purchase a ticket.
Forgetting your glasses might be a genuine issue but it's still not an excuse, were all human we all forget to get change forget glasses forget to bring prepaid tickets and WE have to deal with it, we can't just shrug and say well it's Irish Rails problem because p1ss takers would have a field day if we had a set up like that.end of the road wrote: »these are genuine issues which can happen from time to time and if there is evidence that can be provided to back them up then they can be dealt with. if evidence can't be provided by the person thats their problem.
It would also teach kids and teenagers that if they mess up there are no consequences, the world will reshape itself just for you.
for anyone who wonders why, the reason they do it that way is because its easy revenue, yet they don't actually have to deal with the issue of fare evasion properly. this way makes it look like the issue is really being dealt with, when really its not as much as it should be. unless they can prove the person is actually lying then nobody cares what the RPU guy believes or not. the person themself has to provide evidence, so the RPU guy should be expected to prove they are telling lies, and nothing less should be expected.[/QUOTE]
It's not easy revenue at all, it's quite hard to get people to pay the fines in fact. It's very simple if you buy a valid ticket you won't be fined, it could not be more simple, don't make this out to be like clamping where they're making a fortune out of technicalities it's fairly black and white here, if you get a ticket you won't be fined.end of the road wrote: »no, its because its easy money and people pay up. if the evasion simply went straight to court and the RPU were forced to prove the other side wasn't telling the truth and the other side forced to prove they were, then it would go a long way.
If every RPU case was taken to court civil cases which already take 2-3 years in some cases would take 6-8 years it would be bedlam.
They have proof, it's printed on the passengers ticket, seeing that should be reason enough to get your ass out of the seat someone paid for.end of the road wrote: »they are rational. its up to IE to have proof that a seat is reserved. that means the seat reservation working properly. if they can't be bothered to do that, then the person is entitled to a refund i believe.0 -
You can get a ticket with whats in the machines, you may not for example be able to get a ticket Bray to Newry but you CAN , if stuck, get Bray to Connollly and then get your newry ticket in the machine at Connolly so you can get a valid ticket. Or you can be a child and get on the train anyway knowing you had an chance to buy a proper ticket.
no, not a child. suggesting such people are a child shows one has no argument. sometimes the connection isn't always enough for you to get a ticket for the next part of the journey. so my point still stands that the machines don't sell 100% of relevant rail tickets, and should be selling such.You are ignoring the point, on purpose no doubt, YOU DON'T NEED ALL AVAILABLE TICKETS because the most used tickets for 95% of destinations are available. Trying to use that as an excuse is just being a child.
no it isn't. its not an excuse either, its fact. calling people a child shows one hasno argument.An RPU guy assuming the average industrial wage, at every station would loose more money than it would gain, it would be totally uneconomical a junior cert business student would realize that
would they?There is actually no reason for the booking office staff
yes, there is. plenty of need.they could save a fortune here. Do a hiring freeze.
i think you will find IE is on such freeze or at least it wasput all existing ticket options into the machines, and only replace staff who leave at the key CC stations or stations with major interchanges and hubs like Dun Laoghaire.
or, where staff exist. unmanned stations bar the very rural stations (which mostly are all ready) are not ideal due to anti-social behaviour.A little imagination could actually make Irish rail revenue neutral.
oh, you mean getting the passengers?Forgetting your glasses might be a genuine issue but it's still not an excuse
yes an excuse. something can't not be an excuse if its genuine. its either genuine or not.were all human we all forget to get change forget glasses forget to bring prepaid tickets and WE have to deal with it, we can't just shrug and say well it's Irish Rails problem because p1ss takers would have a field day if we had a set up like that.
It would also teach kids and teenagers that if they mess up there are no consequences, the world will reshape itself just for you.
no, it wouldn't.It's not easy revenue at all, it's quite hard to get people to pay the fines in fact. It's very simple if you buy a valid ticket you won't be fined, it could not be more simple, don't make this out to be like clamping where they're making a fortune out of technicalities it's fairly black and white here, if you get a ticket you won't be fined.
not so simple at all. not black and white either.If every RPU case was taken to court civil cases which already take 2-3 years in some cases would take 6-8 years it would be bedlam.
can be sorted out by speeding up the system. so it wouldn't be bedlam.They have proof, it's printed on the passengers ticket, seeing that should be reason enough to get your ass out of the seat someone paid for.
no, it shouldn't. the ticket is not proof. irish rail ensuring their systems on the train are working is the proof, and ensuring staff to enforce it on long distance trains among other duties will go a long way. if the reserved seat system on the train doesn't work thats irish rails fault.ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.
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