Bidding on House - Can I confirm other bidders actually exist

CreepingDeath

shawty wrote: »

I would like to buy this house but be aware I'm very philosophical!

Thanks for tips, I'm sure they can all smell the first time buyer off me from a mile away.

Nothing wrong with being a first time buyer, sellers love them because they don't have to sell a house, they've the cash/mortgage already.
So it's unlikely that the sale will fall through during the conveyancing process.

The best way to play it cool with an estate agent when you love a house is to put in a bid, but if they start messing you around then casually ask about other houses on their books, or if they have similar properties in that price range. It's show them that you're not fixated on that property, and not a sure thing.

Or play the time limited bid card, and say I'm an eager cash buyer, I'll bid the asking price but won't keep that offer on the table indefinitely.
I'll revoke that offer next Friday.

But you have to be realistic.
Houses that are priced competitively in an area, or have seen their asking price drop are there to get people in the door to spark a bidding war.

newacc2015

Read Freakonomics section on "realtors" aka estate agents. Most estate agents want to close a sale quickly. OP think about it. Do you really think an estate agent who is on 1 or 2 % Commission, really wants to create a phantom seller to get a few extra euros on a €100k house? I could understand on a trophy home, where 1 or 2% commission on extra 10k or 20k is significant. But not on a 100k house, most likely not. Most estate agents want to get rid of lower priced homes to focus on high value, high commission sales.

Jen44

First time buyers are very appealing to the seller and to estate agents as they wont cause any delays waiting on their property to sell so I would use it as a positive. Put in your bid tell them its the highest you are willing to go and tell them you're ready to go and have no other property to sell

L1011

s

newacc2015 wrote: »

Read Freakonomics section on "realtors" aka estate agents. Most estate agents want to close a sale quickly. OP think about it. Do you really think an estate agent who is on 1 or 2 % Commission, really wants to create a phantom seller to get a few extra euros on a €100k house? I could understand on a trophy home, where 1 or 2% commission on extra 10k or 20k is significant. But not on a 100k house, most likely not. Most estate agents want to get rid of lower priced homes to focus on high value, high commission sales.

The simple fact is that Irish estate agents constantly do create phantom bids. The greed for an extra hundred quid definitely hits in a lot of cases. Also agents who are either too lazy or too scared to go to the seller with "too low" bids trying to get to the asking price before they even go to the seller.

Michael D Not Higgins

L1011 wrote: »

The simple fact is that Irish estate agents constantly do create phantom bids. The greed for an extra hundred quid definitely hits in a lot of cases. Also agents who are either too lazy or too scared to go to the seller with "too low" bids trying to get to the asking price before they even go to the seller.

Exactly, it's not the commission they're after, it's the quick sale. And they've already gauged what the seller is looking for and it's not even the asking price a lot of the time.

If you're a few grand short of what the seller wants, of course the agent is going to squeeze you for a bit more. They shouldn't invent bids to do so but we take it as a given that they do it anyway.

shawty

If the EAs make €50/€100 on a €5000 increase, I'm hoping that an offer of the asking which has the seller happy will prompt the EA into getting the sale over the line quickly, not waste their time looking for an extra 30-50 quid.

campingcarist

I have just paid a deposit on a property. It was originally on offer at 99k but went up to 99k. I viewed it and offered 85k waited for a month or so then a 96k offer was received. I said, OK they can have it I won't bid any more. 2 weeks later I get an email from the EA saying the property was back on the market was I interested? So this time I offered 83k and it was accepted.

Just shows you!

shawty

campingcarist wrote: »

I have just paid a deposit on a property. It was originally on offer at 99k but went up to 99k. I viewed it and offered 85k waited for a month or so then a 96k offer was received. I said, OK they can have it I won't bid any more. 2 weeks later I get an email from the EA saying the property was back on the market was I interested? So this time I offered 83k and it was accepted.

Just shows you!

At least you got a good deal

Michael D Not Higgins

shawty wrote: »

If the EAs make €50/€100 on a €5000 increase, I'm hoping that an offer of the asking which has the seller happy will prompt the EA into getting the sale over the line quickly, not waste their time looking for an extra 30-50 quid.

But if you go to asking price straight off the bat, the seller then thinks they've priced too low and hold out for more. The psychology is maddening at times.

filbert the fox

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Exactly, it's not the commission they're after, it's the quick sale. And they've already gauged what the seller is looking for and it's not even the asking price a lot of the time.

If you're a few grand short of what the seller wants, of course the agent is going to squeeze you for a bit more. They shouldn't invent bids to do so but we take it as a given that they do it anyway.

Michael D is that We your royal we. I hope so as I'm one who doesn't take anything as a given and I'm sure there are lots of others around here who feel the same.

The property selling game is like poker. There are lots of possibilities and there's a lot at stake. Bluffing on both sides is a frequent tactic. Showing your hand without the other side paying is not on. You may have a better hand but sometimes the bluff will force you to fold.

Unlike poker however, you still have all your money.:D

Michael D Not Higgins

filbert the fox wrote: »

Michael D is that We your royal we. I hope so as I'm one who doesn't take anything as a given and I'm sure there are lots of others around here who feel the same.

The property selling game is like poker. There are lots of possibilities and there's a lot at stake. Bluffing on both sides is a frequent tactic. Showing your hand without the other side paying is not on. You may have a better hand but sometimes the bluff will force you to fold.

Unlike poker however, you still have all your money.:D

I'm not saying they're all at it or that they do it all the time. There are occasions I've read about in this forum where it looks suspiciously like an invented bid (house on the market for weeks, person bids, next day there's a higher bid, the chances are low in my opinion). Of course you've got to see there's a bit of bluffing going on.

I've also read some other stories here where the EA is straight with the buyer and says, "the seller wants another 5k" instead of inventing a bid to push them up. It really depends on the agent, the house, the area, and how much money they think you have left to play with.

shawty

The amount of times I've heard an EA say recently, "Ok I'm just going to be honest with you" is funny. It's usually followed by them saying they "honestly" could give you the house if you bid just a little bid more!

filbert the fox

shawty wrote: »

The amount of times I've heard an EA say recently, "Ok I'm just going to be honest with you" is funny. It's usually followed by them saying the "honestly" could give you the house if you bid just a little bid more!

Two Ronnies had it to a T. (Beware:slight poetic licence used)

"And now the News. A coach crash today left a bus driver, 27 schoolchildren and two estate agents dead. 28 people with a perfect right to live , and two estate agents!"

Call me Al

Kid you not, but family of mine were highest bidder, only ones left in the game after what I think was months of bids, when the EA eventually came back to them and said house was theirs if they just offered €20k more on TOP OF THEIR OWN FINAL BID.
They held their nerve, said no, and they got their house.

Michael D Not Higgins

Call me Al wrote: »

Kid you not, but family of mine were highest bidder, only ones left in the game after what I think was months of bids, when the EA eventually came back to them and said house was there's if they just offered €20k more on TOP OF THEIR OWN FINAL BID.
They held their nerve, said no, and they got their house.

In that case you know they're chancing their arm. It's all about context.

shawty

I was onto an EA about a place I liked and he said there was an offer in on it which was 5k under the asking.

Then he said to me that he had offered the house to the buyer at 2k under the asking! Basically trying to make sure I didn't just go 1k above the current bid...... I think. Who knows.

He said he was being honest with me though :cool:

jmayo

connacht_man wrote: »

you cant know for sure , its best to be philosophical

play along with the estate agent and know that they all lie through there teeth , if you bid 250 k and he comes back with a phantom bid of 252 , don't let on you know he is being dishonest , these people have no shame , just let him know you are only prepared to make one final offer etc

baschically you accept that they will try and play you and play the game the best you can

I like to test them.
You find some detail like past planning, past sale, etc about the property.
Then ask EA and see if they come back with truth or lie.
Of course sometimes they can come back with nothing meaning they haven't bothered doing any research.
Even ask general questions about area like traffic in morning, breakins, etc and see how much they lie.

I reckon if you put most of them on a polygraph it would look like a magnitude 9 earthquake was happening.

Rackstar wrote: »

Don't get hung up on the house or emotionally attached. If you do, you're setting yourself up for disappointment and over paying for the house.

Could you tell that to my missus. :mad:

L1011

shawty wrote: »

If the EAs make €50/€100 on a €5000 increase, I'm hoping that an offer of the asking which has the seller happy will prompt the EA into getting the sale over the line quickly, not waste their time looking for an extra 30-50 quid.

Far from guaranteed. If the EA has smelt blood and knows you're too eager / have the cash (e.g. managed to get you to show your AIP to them) they'll keep at it.

shawty

jmayo wrote: »

I like to test them.
You find some detail like past planning, past sale, etc about the property.
Then ask EA and see if they come back with truth or lie.
Of course sometimes they can come back with nothing meaning they haven't bothered doing any research.

When I ask them, what's the square footage on this place and they don't know I just stop asking them questions. Surprising how many don't know much about the houses they sell.

Michael D Not Higgins

shawty wrote: »

When I ask them, what's the square footage on this place and they don't know I just stop asking them questions. Surprising how many don't know much about the houses they sell.

I'm always surprised at the lack of information on square footage. I think they don't want the websites being able to sort by price per square foot.

cpoh1

Some dreamers on here thinking this is one massive conspiracy against the public by all estate agents, nothing could be further from the truth.
A couple of key things to remember:
Estate agents want fast turnover of income, not max commission from sales
If they are trying to bid up the house its because its what the seller wants not the estate agent
They work for the seller not the buyer and dont care about you
They are not to be trusted but if you trust anyone when it comes to money/business you are an idiot
Do your own research and know what you are getting into - dont rely on answers from an estate agent

At the end of the day its the seller who decides if he wants to sell his house at the price he is happy with, no estate agent can get around this!

Jake Stiles

cpoh1 wrote: »

Some dreamers on here thinking this is one massive conspiracy against the public by all estate agents, nothing could be further from the truth.
A couple of key things to remember:
Estate agents want fast turnover of income, not max commission from sales
If they are trying to bid up the house its because its what the seller wants not the estate agent
They work for the seller not the buyer and dont care about you
They are not to be trusted but if you trust anyone when it comes to money/business you are an idiot
Do your own research and know what you are getting into - dont rely on answers from an estate agent

At the end of the day its the seller who decides if he wants to sell his house at the price he is happy with, no estate agent can get around this!

Agree.

connacht_man

cpoh1 wrote: »

Some dreamers on here thinking this is one massive conspiracy against the public by all estate agents, nothing could be further from the truth.
A couple of key things to remember:
Estate agents want fast turnover of income, not max commission from sales
If they are trying to bid up the house its because its what the seller wants not the estate agent
They work for the seller not the buyer and dont care about you
They are not to be trusted but if you trust anyone when it comes to money/business you are an idiot
Do your own research and know what you are getting into - dont rely on answers from an estate agent

At the end of the day its the seller who decides if he wants to sell his house at the price he is happy with, no estate agent can get around this!

the estate agent some times has a preferred buyer even they are not the highest bidder , how is that fully representing the seller ?

jmayo

cpoh1 wrote: »

Some dreamers on here thinking this is one massive conspiracy against the public by all estate agents, nothing could be further from the truth.
A couple of key things to remember:
Estate agents want fast turnover of income, not max commission from sales
If they are trying to bid up the house its because its what the seller wants not the estate agent
They work for the seller not the buyer and dont care about you

You would think, but I think you will find a few cases, some rather infamous ones, where they worked for themselves and not even the seller.

cpoh1 wrote: »

They are not to be trusted but if you trust anyone when it comes to money/business you are an idiot
Do your own research and know what you are getting into - dont rely on answers from an estate agent

Very true.

cpoh1 wrote: »

At the end of the day its the seller who decides if he wants to sell his house at the price he is happy with, no estate agent can get around this!

Yeah, but you would assume they can also add a bit of reason.
Surely it only makes the EA look an eejit if they put a property up that is grossly overpriced?
Ever see the threads on here or on property pin laughing at EAs.
And bad publicity hurts future business.

The thing is EAs often offer a pathetic service both to the buyers and even
worse to their actual clients, the sellers.

I would be spitting blood or rather my EA would, if I saw him put up an ad like you often see on Myhome or Daft.
How do sellers not go fecking beserk when they see some of their property ads.
Pictures that look like they were taken by Stevie Wonder with a fisheye, grammar errors all over the shop, incorrect spellings, waffle descriptions, the list goes on.

It reeks of incompetence and is totally unprofessional.

Eire Go Brach

I had similar problems when I was buying my place. Bidding and getting outbid.

I eventually put a deposit on another place. This surprised the Auctioneer.
He came back and told me the other buyer pulled out. It's mine if I want it for there last price. I said in order for me to pull my deposit. I want it for this price. I got it.

This happened with my parents. Although this was 95. My Dad did not trust the auctioneer. He was fed up with him. He had a feeling there was a someone bidding but the auctioneer was holding out. The house was up for awhile.
Low and behold the Bidder knocks on our door. They have a chat and do a deal.
Worked out will for the both of them.

So depending on how long the house is up for sale. The owners might be equally pissed of with the auctioneer. If you really want the house. Knock on the door. Although it may not exactly be legal for the seller.

sapper

If you think about who has the most to gain from an increased sale price - the EA or the vendor? The vendor obviously.

Any vendor can just get their friend/brother in law to call up the EA and put in a bid - they don't even need to involve the EA.

And what is the harm to the vendor if a phantom bid doesn't work - just get the EA to get back on to the "underbidder" with the good news.

Vendors are people and people are greedy, especially when there's a middle man to protect their identity.

I'm not saying that EA's are whiter than white, but if you stop to think about it if there are phantom bids, they most likely are coming from the vendor themselves.

Barely Hedged

jmayo wrote: »

I like to test them.
You find some detail like past planning, past sale, etc about the property.
Then ask EA and see if they come back with truth or lie.
Of course sometimes they can come back with nothing meaning they haven't bothered doing any research.
Even ask general questions about area like traffic in morning, breakins, etc and see how much they lie.

I reckon if you put most of them on a polygraph it would look like a magnitude 9 earthquake was happening.



Could you tell that to my missus. :mad:

Their job is to open the door and let you in to view the property and then close and lock the door behind them when the viewing is complete.

It's up to the seller to know about the area they want to buy in

jmayo

Barely Hedged wrote: »

Their job is to open the door and let you in to view the property and then close and lock the door behind them when the viewing is complete.

It's up to the seller to know about the area they want to buy in

Sorry have been away for a while and just noticed this now.

I think you are being very generous there in your summation of EAs.

As far as I know they are meant to be sales people, not just security guards who allow you access to the property.
What the feck do they get a percentage of the sales price for, minding the keys ?

The serious lack of knowledge EAs and auctioneers display about the properties they are selling is ridiculous.

Would you buy a car off a guy who couldn't tell you when it was last serviced, if the timing belt had been done recently, what the engine size was, or if it was any good at say towing a trailer ?
Would you buy a computer off a guy who couldn't tell you what processor it had or what hard disk was installed.

Yet we are meant to buy property off guys who know feck all about it half the time.

And yes it is up to the seller to investigate an area, but would it not be common sense that an EA would know an area in which they are selling properties.

Barely Hedged

jmayo wrote: »

Sorry have been away for a while and just noticed this now.

I think you are being very generous there in your summation of EAs.

As far as I know they are meant to be sales people, not just security guards who allow you access to the property.
What the feck do they get a percentage of the sales price for, minding the keys ?

The serious lack of knowledge EAs and auctioneers display about the properties they are selling is ridiculous.

Would you buy a car off a guy who couldn't tell you when it was last serviced, if the timing belt had been done recently, what the engine size was, or if it was any good at say towing a trailer ?
Would you buy a computer off a guy who couldn't tell you what processor it had or what hard disk was installed.

Yet we are meant to buy property off guys who know feck all about it half the time.

And yes it is up to the seller to investigate an area, but would it not be common sense that an EA would know an area in which they are selling properties.

You were looking for answers on very specific questions like traffic in the morning and burglaries. Why would they know about this or even pro actively advertise it. It is the buyers perogative to find these out.

As regards planning - why employ a surveyor if you're going to take a sales persons word for it? You can ask them the question which they then ask the vendor. To expect them to know, is a bit of a push

jmayo

Barely Hedged wrote: »

You were looking for answers on very specific questions like traffic in the morning and burglaries. Why would they know about this or even pro actively advertise it. It is the buyers perogative to find these out.

They were my examples of tests just to try out EA.

And why shouldn't they know something about such things ?
Are you seriously saying they should know nothing about a properties location ?
Look at most property ads especially in smaller towns/villages where they make reference to every god damm amenity in the area, schools, golfcourses, sports clubs, etc.
And again I am more so talking about property in smaller towns/villages rather than an estate in a suburb of Dublin.

Barely Hedged wrote: »

As regards planning - why employ a surveyor if you're going to take a sales persons word for it? You can ask them the question which they then ask the vendor. To expect them to know, is a bit of a push

Because again maybe they should be able to tell you something about a property history.
And again the point is to see if they outright lie.
e.g the lie would be for instance that there was never any planning sought and refused after initial build rather than there was some planning sought or I don't know.

I would rather they say I don't know or I will check it out with vendor to the above questions rather than an outright lie.

Oh and don't worry, I would never trust an EA's word or vendor's word about planning issues.