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Teacherslookup.com & Data Protection legislation

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    #62
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    implausible wrote: »
    This is a very interesting debate i.e. does being a public servant mean a lower level of privacy? I would argue that our job, by definition, means that we are in the public eye, but I can understand the unease about being easily found on Google, when you may not have been before.

    Rest assured, you are no more easily found on Google now as you were this time last year. Google yourself and see...


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    #63
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Graham wrote: »
    If you decide your information should be available, that is your right and there's nothing to prevent you from making that choice.

    The information is in Googles index, that generally means it is on it's way to appearing in search results or it's in the process of being de-listed. Time will tell.

    I can understand why some people see it as unnecessary, there's an argument that Teaching staff have already been vetted by their employers and as such there is no benefit to opening up the information to a wider audience.

    The information may be in Google's index, but it doesn't, as was claimed, pop up when you google a person's name. That is untrue and scaremongering.

    Yes, I can understand why people might see it as unnecessary, but to be honest, it's not about being vetted by employers, it's about the public knowing who the staff of an educational establishment are. Hardly unreasonable, given that the taxpayer pays our wages?


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    #64
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    katydid wrote: »
    The information may be in Google's index, but it doesn't, as was claimed, pop up when you google a person's name. That is untrue and scaremongering.

    Yet. Google aren't in the habit of collection information if they have no intention of returning it in their search results. To call that scaremongering demonstrates a lack of understanding of what Google does/is.

    Edited to add:

    The first name I searched for in quotes appeared in the search results in position 1.


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    #65
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Graham wrote: »
    Yet. Google aren't in the habit of collection information if they have no intention of returning it in their search results. To call that scaremongering demonstrates a lack of understanding of what Google does/is.
    It's scaremongering to suggest that if I type my name into google, it will easily come up in connection to this website. This is UNTRUE.

    If it is there, it is way down the pages. It is not the first hit or on the first page. The OP claimed they "came across" it; they must have been doing a very intensive and detailed search.

    Edit - I tried again with my name and the five other names, with quotes, and same result; no sign of this website.


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    #66
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    katydid wrote: »
    It's scaremongering to suggest that if I type my name into google, it will easily come up in connection to this website. This is UNTRUE.

    If it is there, it is way down the pages. It is not the first hit or on the first page. The OP claimed they "came across" it; they must have been doing a very intensive and detailed search.

    You may have missed my edit.

    The first name I searched for (using quotes around the name) appeared for exactly that website. There is nothing untrue or scaremongering about that.

    Added

    and the 2nd name
    and the 3rd name
    and the 4th name


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    #67
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    katydid wrote: »
    It's scaremongering to suggest that if I type my name into google, it will easily come up in connection to this website. This is UNTRUE.

    If it is there, it is way down the pages. It is not the first hit or on the first page. The OP claimed they "came across" it; they must have been doing a very intensive and detailed search.

    Edit - I tried again with my name and the five other names, with quotes, and same result; no sign of this website.

    When I type my name into google and hit return the very first result is the entry on the teacherslookup.com site. I am not making this up.

    Look, Katydid, you seem determined to dismiss this. It might not be a problem for you, maybe you're in a position to be carefree when it comes to this sort of thing. That does not mean it's not a problem, and it does not mean that other people should accept it. You're not bothered, and that's fair enough. I'm bothered.


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    #68
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    beveragelady wrote: »
    When I type my name into google and hit return the very first result is the entry on the teacherslookup.com site. I am not making this up.

    Look, Katydid, you seem determined to dismiss this. It might not be a problem for you, maybe you're in a position to be carefree when it comes to this sort of thing. That does not mean it's not a problem, and it does not mean that other people should accept it. You're not bothered, and that's fair enough. I'm bothered.

    I'm not saying you're making it up, but I find it very strange. I tried again with four other names of teachers I know and none came up. One came up in connection with a different site, "Ratemyteachers".

    I'm not dismissing it. I'm saying that the problem is exaggerated - out of nine names I tried, none turned up in connection with this site.

    What you were complaining about was not only the Teacherlookup site, but the fact that the address of your workplace is available on the TC website. This is what I'm taking issue with - you are a public servant, in a public job. You can't expect your workplace not to be named on a professional register.

    If that's a problem for you, you're in the wrong job.


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    #69
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Graham wrote: »
    You may have missed my edit.

    The first name I searched for (using quotes around the name) appeared for exactly that website. There is nothing untrue or scaremongering about that.

    Added

    and the 2nd name
    and the 3rd name
    and the 4th name
    No, I saw your edit, and went back to add my own edit to say that five names I tried, including my own, did not show up. I tried another four names, not colleagues but people I know to be teachers, and it did not come up.

    That is strange.


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    #70
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    katydid wrote: »
    It's scaremongering to suggest that if I type my name into google, it will easily come up in connection to this website. This is UNTRUE.

    If it is there, it is way down the pages. It is not the first hit or on the first page. The OP claimed they "came across" it; they must have been doing a very intensive and detailed search.

    Edit - I tried again with my name and the five other names, with quotes, and same result; no sign of this website.

    The website only collected part of the register. You probably aren't on it. It's the first result for any name I search that's on that website.


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    #71
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    katydid wrote: »
    you are a public servant, in a public job. You can't expect your workplace not to be named on a professional register.

    If that's a problem for you, you're in the wrong job.

    Fortunately there are data protection laws that limit how much of this information and in what form is publicly available.

    Yet again I will point out to you, being a public servant does not remove a persons rights in terms of data protection.


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    #72
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Alaia Gifted Rodeo wrote: »
    The website only collected part of the register. You probably aren't on it. It's the first result for any name I search that's on that website.

    Strange, though, that a random search of nine names didn't show up anything.

    So we are both right.

    And it's a storm in a teacup, since TWO clicks gets you the same information on the TC website...


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    #73
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    katydid wrote: »
    The information may be in Google's index, but it doesn't, as was claimed, pop up when you google a person's name. That is untrue and scaremongering.

    This is where you said I was making it up.

    The key thing here to which you seem selectively blind is the fact that previously a google search result of my name yielded no information that betrayed my physical location. That is no longer the case.

    If you really have nothing to contribute other than "Meh, doesn't bother me, suck it up," I can't help wondering why you keep chiming in.


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    #74
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    katydid wrote: »
    Strange, though, that a random search of nine names didn't show up anything.

    So we are both right.

    And it's a storm in a teacup, since TWO clicks gets you the same information on the TC website...

    The fact that you're unable to find any and I found the first 4 I searched for doesn't change the facts or the Data Protection laws regardless of your misguided belief that public servants have no rights to Data Protection/privacy.


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    #75
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Graham wrote: »
    The fact that you're unable to find any and I found the first 4 I searched for doesn't change the facts or the Data Protection laws regardless of your misguided belief that public servants have no rights to Data Protection/privacy.
    It proves that it is not automatic.

    I never said public servants have no rights under the Data Protection act. I said the opposite, in fact. That has nothing to do with this issue. The issue here is public data being misused. People here have complained about simple data like a teacher's workplace being available at all


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    #76
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    beveragelady wrote: »
    This is where you said I was making it up.

    The key thing here to which you seem selectively blind is the fact that previously a google search result of my name yielded no information that betrayed my physical location. That is no longer the case.

    If you really have nothing to contribute other than "Meh, doesn't bother me, suck it up," I can't help wondering why you keep chiming in.

    It IS untrue that it will automatically come up. It did for you. It didnt' for me.

    A google search will reveal your physical location anyway, if a person knows you're a teacher. They just have to look up the TC website. If you have a problem with that, you are in the wrong job.

    It's not a case of "suck it up". It's a case of reality - the public has a right to know who works in publicly funded institutions.


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    #77
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    katydid wrote: »
    It proves that it is not automatic.

    I never said public servants have no rights under the Data Protection act. I said the opposite, in fact. That has nothing to do with this issue. The issue here is public data being misused. People here have complained about simple data like a teacher's workplace being available at all

    Whether it's automatic or not the data protection/privacy implications are exactly the same.

    I can't say I blame people about their workplace information being made available globally to all and sundry. The public have no expectation or right to expect a public servants work location to be publicly available, please feel free to show me evidence to the contrary rather than an opinion.


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    #78
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    katydid wrote: »
    It IS untrue that it will automatically come up. It did for you. It didnt' for me.

    There you have it. It doesn't affect you. It affects me. Therefore my perspective is different and a good deal more pertinent.


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    #79
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    katydid wrote: »
    I tried googling my own name and that of several of my colleagues, who would have, if not unique, at least unusual names. In no case did this website come up in a google search; what DID come up was a link to our college website moodle site, with that teacher's name and role.

    Bearing in mind this corporation is just beginning this project publicising our mined data, perhaps they haven't got around to you?

    Maybe they're doing 2nd level schools or some other sector you're not in first? They had not got me up last week for certain. They do now. Additionally, as I said in the op my name did not come up as a phrase search with double quotes. That is because the TCI has my full name recorded. So take out the double quotes and search again.


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    #80
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    katydid wrote: »
    The TC information can be found by a simple two step search. Google the TC, then click the search tab

    A "simple" search is Google, which never gave this information when the info was only on the TC website. Do you accept this fact yet (Graham explained the technical reason why it didn't)?

    Your suggested "simple two-step search" assumes 1) people actually know you're a teacher and 2) that the info is on a website run by some organisation named the Teaching Council of Ireland. They are big assumptions indeed. If they just google a teacher's name now they find out both his profession, place of employment and other personal data from a private US firm.

    Where, precisely, in our contracts of employment was this consented to? Please be clear on this specific point.


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    #81
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    wrote:
    Rest assured, you are no more easily found on Google now as you were this time last year. Google yourself and see...

    I've googled myself and I see that the above claim is nonsense.


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    #82
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Can I ask if anyone here (who has had their information published by teachers lookup) has lodged a formal complaint with the Data Protection Commissioner and/or the Teaching Council of Ireland?

    For context, there are two or three approaches that could potentially be taken to rectifying these data breaches. I'm curious to learn if any of them are being pursued.


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    #83
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    katydid wrote: »
    since they are public servants and this data should be available. The information is, and should be, available at the click of a mouse.

    Says who? What's your legal basis for this claim? And where on the net is there a private foreign business publicising the data on the names, places of employment, personal registration numbers, etc for all 350,000 Irish public servants?


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    #84
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    Graham wrote: »
    Can I ask if anyone here (who has had their information published by teachers lookup) has lodged a formal complaint with the Data Protection Commissioner and/or the Teaching Council of Ireland?

    For context, there are two or three approaches that could potentially be taken to rectifying these data breaches. I'm curious to learn if any of them are being pursued.

    I emailed the TC giving a very vague outline of my perspective on this and asking them to contact me. I got an automated out-of-office reply, looks like they're off until the 17th. I thought it was fair to give them the right of reply before charging off to the Data Protection Commissioner.


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    #85
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    Many registered teachers don't have any workplace listed by the TC - and this is not just subs. If this is an option I will be asking the TC to remove this information from public view for my entry on the register, given they can't seem to protect our data.

    There are thousands of public and civil servants not subject to any public listing. Personally I think any claim that it is a public right to know exactly where each public servant works is complete nonsense.


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    #86
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    I wouldn't wait, the DPC aren't draconian at all, in fact they are very reasonable to deal with.

    The DPC will usually have a named individual that they can contact to assess the situation.

    I note with interest that the website that is republishing this information is hosted by Microsoft in a U.S. data centre. It should be open to the Teaching Council to submit a DMCA takedown request to Microsoft stating that the collection of data that is being republished is copyright information which Teacherslookup have no right to re-publish.

    There may also be options around identifying the individuals responsible for the publication which could be used to help prevent further infringement.


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    #87
    gaiscioch
    Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭gaiscioch


    Graham wrote: »
    I wouldn't wait, the DPC aren't draconian at all, in fact they are very reasonable to deal with.

    The DPC will usually have a named individual that they can contact to assess the situation.

    On this point, lodge a formal complaint rather than a query. I initially lodged a query about the legalities of this and received an automated reply stating a query will be answered in 15 days, whereas a formal complaint will be dealt with much quicker.


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    #88
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    gaiscioch wrote: »
    On this point, lodge a formal complaint rather than a query. I initially lodged a query about the legalities of this and received an automated reply stating a query will be answered in 15 days, whereas a formal complaint will be dealt with much quicker.

    Thanks, that's useful to know.


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    #89
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Graham wrote: »
    Whether it's automatic or not the data protection/privacy implications are exactly the same.

    I can't say I blame people about their workplace information being made available globally to all and sundry. The public have no expectation or right to expect a public servants work location to be publicly available, please feel free to show me evidence to the contrary rather than an opinion.

    Yes, I know they are the same. But the details DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY come up, as suggested.
    A school is a publicly funded institution. Show me evidence that the public does NOT have the right to know who is employed by them in a publicly funded institution...


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    #90
    beveragelady
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭beveragelady


    katydid wrote: »
    Yes, I know they are the same. But the details DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY come up, as suggested.

    They don't AUTOMATICALLY come up for you!
    Other people are not you!


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    #91
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    katydid wrote: »
    Yes, I know they are the same. But the details DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY come up, as suggested.
    A school is a publicly funded institution. Show me evidence that the public does NOT have the right to know who is employed by them in a publicly funded institution...

    I've asked you previously to point to any legislation that suggests the general public are legally entitled to know who works where in the public service.

    You're the one making this claim and I have asked you to back this up.

    Nows your chance.


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