timetables

katydid

seavill wrote: »

Yes but using the 6 months we have off to get a better quality of life during the time we are working is a better option to a lot of people.

We all know how tiring it is to have say 9 classes on a Tuesday be stuck in until 6pm that evening and have maybe 8 classes the next day, and then you have 2 more days to survive after all that.
Never mind the fact you are missing quality time with a young family maybe that evening, etc. etc. etc.

Compared to out of the maybe 90 days in a row we have off, losing one of them at the end making it 89 days in a row off.

That is what we are talking about. Yes giving in is not a good thing but the point is these hours are already here we have to do them.
Maybe they will bring in this that or the other thing, maybe I will counter all your scaremongering by saying that I think that over the next number of years they will actually give us longer summer holidays to make up for all the sh1t we have put up with over the last number of years.
Your made up ideas are as irrelevant as mine currently.
We don't know what is going to happen in 5 years time, we will fight that when it comes to it, the point is currently we have 33 extra hours we have to do, so what is the best decision to make to get a better quality of life for us.

For me personally having 89 days off instead of 90, I think I'll survive

So what about 85 days off instead of 90? Or maybe 80?

trihead

We were back today ( know a few other schools too) - the normal year stated today - it wasn't voted on to go back earlier for croke park hrs. The CEO of the ETB decides for us and many/most of the other schools & colleges in the scheme. We are finished earlier though ( end of May) so it has some merits...but it is early alright.

seavill

katydid wrote: »

So what about 85 days off instead of 90? Or maybe 80?

In this example it's different to what you are referring to. Mine is lose a day to save time in evenings. Yours doesn't exist.

Look I've no problem with you speculating but you don't need to say it over and over and over in the same thread. Make the point and leave people make up their own minds.

Trihead it would be worth while getting your union reps to go in armed with the curricular or HR agreement. I had the link last week I'll find it again. The process is set out. It will only be followed in your case if ye push it. They are taking advantage by not consulting.

katydid

seavill wrote: »

In this example it's different to what you are referring to. Mine is lose a day to save time in evenings. Yours doesn't exist.

Look I've no problem with you speculating but you don't need to say it over and over and over in the same thread. Make the point and leave people make up their own minds..

Nice that you have no problem with me speculating. I'm sorry that I upset your little world where everyone agrees with you. But you can't shut me up just by wishing me away. This is a discussion, where different points of view are expressed. You are in no position to stifle debate.

r93kaey5p2izun

seavill wrote: »

In this example it's different to what you are referring to. Mine is lose a day to save time in evenings. Yours doesn't exist.

Look I've no problem with you speculating but you don't need to say it over and over and over in the same thread. Make the point and leave people make up their own minds.

Trihead it would be worth while getting your union reps to go in armed with the curricular or HR agreement. I had the link last week I'll find it again. The process is set out. It will only be followed in your case if ye push it. They are taking advantage by not consulting.

There's no consultation on when the school year starts though. Trihead said it was a normal school day rather than CP. In many ETBs this is entirely up to the CEO.

We are the same Trihead but thankfully 31st was decided this year and our staff voted against any early CP days.

seavill

Jose Hundreds Physicist wrote: »

There's no consultation on when the school year starts though. Trihead said it was a normal school day rather than CP. In many ETBs this is entirely up to the CEO.

We are the same Trihead but thankfully 31st was decided this year and our staff voted against any early CP days.

Oh yea missed that sorry.

It's in everyone's interest to consult I don't see why managers don't. Even if people don't agree at least it's slightly better if you feel you were part of it even if you didn't get your own way.

Do many schools timetables change in the first week or two. Had someone tell me bout this recently I was surprised. Could just imagine the chaos

katydid

Jose Hundreds Physicist wrote: »

There's no consultation on when the school year starts though. Trihead said it was a normal school day rather than CP. In many ETBs this is entirely up to the CEO.

We are the same Trihead but thankfully 31st was decided this year and our staff voted against any early CP days.

I wonder if the CEO of the ETB is entitled to make these decisions for all the schools in his/her area?

r93kaey5p2izun

We often don't receive timetable until we're back (haven't got it yet) and it regularly changes for the first month. Students not allowed write in properly into their journals for weeks - a nightmare when tutor to a SEN class. Chaos is right.

Alex Meier

ethical wrote: »

What has the teaching world come to at all at all? With 9 'blank' periods one has to fill in all 9 ranked 1 (the period you do not mind doing ) to 9 (the least favourite period).This dirty trick was played last year in school not too far away from where I live: every one got their 1st,2nd and 3rd period.........and then their 8th and 9th!!!,which for one girl was the last class on a Friday afternoon,she was usually 'caught' for it.
Do you realise now that the second level time table has about as much flexibility as a primary school timetable=NONE! Working conditions have been eroded at a shocking rate.
Do not mention the Croke Park hours! Quite a few schools are returning on Wednesday next to get 12 said hours out of the way on Wednesday and Thursday where another school has 'postponed' Croke Park until later because the Principal has no life and would prefer to hold teachers captive at evening time throughout the dark winter adding a considerable extra expense to childminding.

Well you get what you voted for . . . and this is what teachers voted for.

I have to return tomorrow for a day to do a Croke Park day. I consider this working a day unpaid.

Many thanks to the muppets who voted for Croke Park/Haddington Road.

And Guess what? . . . They'll vote for the continuation of this madness in the Lansdowne Road Agreement. . . .As pay rises for state bailed out bankers is ongoing and politicians tell us how much the economy has improved.

Alex Meier

seavill wrote: »

For me personally having 89 days off instead of 90, I think I'll survive

Perhaps you won't mind your 89 days being reduced in the future?

Fair play to you.

spurious

ETB contracts have for many years (at least since I got mine back in the 80s) said the summer holiday period was six weeks. By custom and practice it has been longer, but contractually, it is six weeks.

I don't know what Department or individual school contracts say.

katydid

spurious wrote: »

ETB contracts have for many years (at least since I got mine back in the 80s) said the summer holiday period was six weeks. By custom and practice it has been longer, but contractually, it is six weeks.

I don't know what Department or individual school contracts say.

Back in the sixties, when my father was working in Cork City VEC, the then CEO attempted to insist that people came in to work until the end of June. The unions came on board and called in custom and practice and the idea was scrapped. But it is still there on the books, as far as I understand. The only reason second level teachers are off in June is the logistics of the exams - and, as I said, they get over that in places like the UK by having subject teachers invigilate them while classes continue.

seavill

Alex Meier wrote: »

Perhaps you won't mind your 89 days being reduced in the future?

Fair play to you.

I didn't say they either I was simply making the point that the extra 33 or whatever hours are already in so we need to do what is best for us to handle those hours. For some it's evenings suit for others it's one day less in summer suits.

No where did I say I wanted or hoped our holidays would be reduced further.

There is no point crying about something when the horse has already bolted. We should do our best to make the hours work for us rather than do what suits the department.

The original idea was for the public to see our cars in the car park after 4pm and nothing else.
Parents done care if we come back a day early or not. As it stands we are going against the whole original idea of cp hours. So for me it's a tiny victory. Others might not feel the same.

Moral of the story is these hours are in ang have been for a few years. Nobody is doing any extra by coming back a day early everyone still does the same hours.

If someone has the perception that teachers have no problem coming back earlier again because of voluntarily doing it now then I pity them

katydid

seavill wrote: »

I didn't say they either I was simply making the point that the extra 33 or whatever hours are already in so we need to do what is best for us to handle those hours. For some it's evenings suit for others it's one day less in summer suits.

No where did I say I wanted or hoped our holidays would be reduced further.

There is no point crying about something when the horse has already bolted. We should do our best to make the hours work for us rather than do what suits the department.

The original idea was for the public to see our cars in the car park after 4pm and nothing else.
Parents done care if we come back a day early or not. As it stands we are going against the whole original idea of cp hours. So for me it's a tiny victory. Others might not feel the same.

Moral of the story is these hours are in ang have been for a few years. Nobody is doing any extra by coming back a day early everyone still does the same hours.

If someone has the perception that teachers have no problem coming back earlier again because of voluntarily doing it now then I pity them

No point in crying about something after the horse has bolted, but there's no point in opening the back door to the stable and saying to the Dept. "come on in". By voluntarily eating into the holidays, we are setting ourselves up for future mandatory in-service outside the set school days, and we won't have a leg to stand on.

seavill

katydid wrote: »

No point in crying about something after the horse has bolted, but there's no point in opening the back door to the stable and saying to the Dept. "come on in". By voluntarily eating into the holidays, we are setting ourselves up for future mandatory in-service outside the set school days, and we won't have a leg to stand on.

As I said I prefer it to earring into my evenings. Each to their own I suppose.

I might change my mind when all these imaginary things happen who knows we will wait and see

katydid

seavill wrote: »

As I said I prefer it to earring into my evenings. Each to their own I suppose.

I might change my mind when all these imaginary things happen who knows we will wait and see

The point is that what can happen is that there will be evening meetings AND mandatory in-service outside the school year, once the principle of coming back early has been established.

I've only ten years left before retirement, so if it happens it won't bother me too much, but I feel sorry for younger teachers.

ethical

Seeing that we are talking timetable issues would I be correct in saying that a teacher should not be on for 9 classes in a row a couple of times a week? Is there some Health and Safety issue with this? Should a teacher have at least one period off.(I'm not talking about S & s here),just 9 straight teaching classes in a row..............

vamos!

ethical wrote: »

Seeing that we are talking timetable issues would I be correct in saying that a teacher should not be on for 9 classes in a row a couple of times a week? Is there some Health and Safety issue with this? Should a teacher have at least one period off.(I'm not talking about S & s here),just 9 straight teaching classes in a row..............

I would imagine that's fine. We have break time and lunchtime. Other sectors work 9-6 with a lunch break. Surely if this happens more than once or twice a week there is an early finish or a late start involved?

r93kaey5p2izun

vamos! wrote: »

I would imagine that's fine. We have break time and lunchtime. Other sectors work 9-6 with a lunch break. Surely if this happens more than once or twice a week there is an early finish or a late start involved?

Lots of schools have no break time but almost everyone has lunch.

OP - Because we have an adult ed centre on site I have had years where I taught through the second level lunch so was teaching 9-3.30 with no break. That is a breach of regulated break times but it was either suck it up or lose some hours. The rules are a break of 15 minutes after 4.5 hours work and 30 minutes (including the previous 15 minutes) after 6 hours work.

rainbowtrout

ethical wrote: »

Seeing that we are talking timetable issues would I be correct in saying that a teacher should not be on for 9 classes in a row a couple of times a week? Is there some Health and Safety issue with this? Should a teacher have at least one period off.(I'm not talking about S & s here),just 9 straight teaching classes in a row..............

Health and safety? 9 in a row is tiring but it still amounts to 6 hours of work with a break and a lunch.

katydid

ethical wrote: »

Seeing that we are talking timetable issues would I be correct in saying that a teacher should not be on for 9 classes in a row a couple of times a week? Is there some Health and Safety issue with this? Should a teacher have at least one period off.(I'm not talking about S & s here),just 9 straight teaching classes in a row..............

Surely it would depend on the length of the classes. Employment legislation specifies the number of hours one can work without a break. I can't remember off hand what it is - I think it's four, but I could be wrong.

Alex Meier

katydid wrote: »

Surely it would depend on the length of the classes. Employment legislation specifies the number of hours one can work without a break. I can't remember off hand what it is - I think it's four, but I could be wrong.

A 15 minute break is required after 6 hours

Of course 6 hours sitting at a desk is not the same as 6 hours teaching.

katydid

Alex Meier wrote: »

A 15 minute break is required after 6 hours

Of course 6 hours sitting at a desk is not the same as 6 hours teaching.

Ok, six hours. I should know it, I teach that stuff!

Six hours standing behind a bar or counter isn't the same as sitting at a desk either. The law doesn't take the nature of the work into account.

Alex Meier

It happened to me last year . . . .Had six classes on a Monday morning, a lunchtime unpaid Supervision, free first after lunch, then class.

The free was a Haddington Road unpaid Substitution. . . which meant I was working over six hours straight without a break when placed on for S&S.

katydid

Alex Meier wrote: »

It happened to me last year . . . .Had six classes on a Monday morning, a lunchtime unpaid Supervision, free first after lunch, then class.

The free was a Haddington Road unpaid Substitution. . . which meant I was working over six hours straight without a break when placed on for S&S.

Then you can refuse to do it. It's illegal.

We're not allowed have our Croke Park meeting at lunchtime because of this legislation. Management can't have it both ways. :-)

vamos!

Alex Meier wrote: »

It happened to me last year . . . .Had six classes on a Monday morning, a lunchtime unpaid Supervision, free first after lunch, then class.

The free was a Haddington Road unpaid Substitution. . . which meant I was working over six hours straight without a break when placed on for S&S.

Did you have break? Are you on supervision for the entire lunchtime? We get 15 minutes to eat our lunch before supervision. Someone does that 15 minute slot instead of a 15 minute break slot. I hate these hours as much as the next teacher but I find it very hard to believe that anyone was asked to work 9-4 with no break whatsoever. Exaggeration and the poor teacher moans won't do us any favours . I have put myself in these situations by arranging to meet students at lunch, running my club after school and giving up my only free to help the TYs with something before realising I'm on break duty but that's my own stupidity/generosity. In my pre-teacher life I worked 40-50 hours and went through breaks during busy times. 6 hourson the trot is tough and orrible but it's doable.

ethical

Of course we are our own worst enemies.At the same time though it is worth a moan if the Principal is sitting on their butt when the minions are swarming around like blue *rsed flies.The erosion of conditions is unbelievable compared to in other professions.Everyone loves to hate a teacher!

Alex Meier

vamos! wrote: »

Did you have break? Are you on supervision for the entire lunchtime? We get 15 minutes to eat our lunch before supervision. Someone does that 15 minute slot instead of a 15 minute break slot. I hate these hours as much as the next teacher but I find it very hard to believe that anyone was asked to work 9-4 with no break whatsoever. Exaggeration and the poor teacher moans won't do us any favours . I have put myself in these situations by arranging to meet students at lunch, running my club after school and giving up my only free to help the TYs with something before realising I'm on break duty but that's my own stupidity/generosity. In my pre-teacher life I worked 40-50 hours and went through breaks during busy times. 6 hourson the trot is tough and orrible but it's doable.

I regularly worked from 08:55 to 15:00 with a ten minute break where the law states I'm entitled to a 15 minute break.

I brought this to the attention of management and they were more than reasonable. . . . But others did not.

This sort of stuff is ongoing in various different ways.

katydid

Alex Meier wrote: »

I regularly worked from 08:55 to 15:00 with a ten minute break where the law states I'm entitled to a 15 minute break.

I brought this to the attention of management and they were more than reasonable. . . . But others did not.

This sort of stuff is ongoing in various different ways.

They have no choice but to be "more than reasonable". They are breaking the law if they don't allow you the requisite break.

Alex Meier

katydid wrote: »

They have no choice but to be "more than reasonable". They are breaking the law if they don't allow you the requisite break.

The Croke Park and Haddington Road hours mean that it is not uncommon for teachers to work from 08:45 to 18:45 with only a 15 minute break.

Happens regularly.