Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

oscarBravo

Agent_47 wrote: »

What is Eircode?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=eircode

gizmo555

Six months on, in summary:

• A tiny proportion (guesstimated at 2%) of letters sent via An Post include an Eircode in the address;
• The Freight Transport Association of Ireland says none of its members use Eircodes;
• The Irish Road Haulage Association says Eircode is "worthless" for its members' purposes;
• The Irish Fire and Emergency Services Association says its members cannot use Eircodes to locate addresses;
• Retail Ireland says Eircodes can "reduce costs" but the Comptroller and Auditor General says the initially projected cost of €18m has more than doubled to €38m and "It is not clear that benefits-to-the-value-projected will be achieved".

A resounding success so . . .

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/six-months-on-people-still-confounded-by-eircode-system-1.2476492

View

GJG wrote: »

I think you are correct that the haphazard nature of addressing is unfortunate. You say that introducing Eircode before what you regard as a 'proper addressing system' is the 'main problem'. Other than 'Don't start from here', what exactly is your suggested solution?

Make the local authorities responsible for their local addressing and make use of all official addresses, after the inevitable two or three round review periods (to allow for corrections etc), mandatory by all regulated bodies within the State.

Eircode uses An Post's Geodirectory and if you look it up, they state that your "postal address" may use the wrong COUNTY if it suits them, never mind the wrong area. An Post aren't our legislature and the issue of them overriding the democratic decisions of the Oireachtas on what our counties, areas etc are should never have been allowed to arise in the first place.

And, correcting our addresses, could easily have been done either before or in parallel to the introduction of Eircode given that the latter took a decade+ to introduce. After all, An Post's argument against Eircode was their internal OCR sorting was good enough so they didn't need it, so the reform of the postal addresses did not need to wait for Eircode. It could have been done even if we had never decided to introduce Eircode.

GJG

View wrote: »

Make the local authorities responsible for their local addressing and make use of all official addresses, after the inevitable two or three round review periods (to allow for corrections etc), mandatory by all regulated bodies within the State.

I've no particular objection to this, though I think that you are underestimating the likely level of local resistance - "two or three round review periods" - and you haven't given any clear reason behind the proposal. Maybe there is one, but I can't see what it is, so could you be clearer on what the return on investment would be?

View wrote: »

And, correcting our addresses, could easily have been done either before or in parallel to the introduction of Eircode given that the latter took a decade+ to introduce. After all, An Post's argument against Eircode was their internal OCR sorting was good enough so they didn't need it, so the reform of the postal addresses did not need to wait for Eircode. It could have been done even if we had never decided to introduce Eircode.

Sure, it could have been done, as you say, before or in parallel to the introduction of Eircode. Or it could be done now, after the introduction of Eircode - there's nothing about Eircode that inhibits anything you are suggesting. The one thing that inhibits your suggestion is its cost and difficulty, set against the absence of any stated benefit. I fail to see how Eircode would increase the cost or difficulty, and since you haven't mentioned any benefit at all, I don't see how Eircode could impact that. Maybe you could detail both.

It is notable that, although this has been pushed since the introduction of Eircode, there was no interest in such a project before that. It seems to me that the reason for coming up with a project likely to be held up by a million local objections, and insisting for no apparent reason that Eircode should not proceed without it, is to generate an excuse to delay or cancel Eircode.

SPDUB

gizmo555 wrote: »

Six months on, in summary:


A tiny proportion (guesstimated at 2%) of letters sent via An Post include an Eircode in the address;

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/six-months-on-people-still-confounded-by-eircode-system-1.2476492

Most letters put into the mail system are not handled by counter staff ,even the ones where people purchase stamps at the PO , so that claim of 2% is pretty bad journalism by The Irish Times

Who needs postcodes!

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-35174646
A German Christmas card with just "England" on the envelope has reached the right address in Gloucestershire.
Paul Biggs, from Longlevens, said he was absolutely shocked when his postman arrived at his front door with the card from his friends in Bitburg in Germany.
He said: "I can't believe it - it's eerie - it's just got 'England' and sent from a sorting office in Bitburg."
Royal Mail said its "address detectives" were renowned but "even by their standards" it was impressive.
Mr Biggs said the card had been sent by his friends in Germany on Monday and was handed to him by his postman on Wednesday morning.
The postman had been carrying the letter as he completed his round, asking his customers if the card was for them.

gizmo555

SPDUB wrote: »

Most letters put into the mail system are not handled by counter staff ,even the ones where people purchase stamps at the PO , so that claim of 2% is pretty bad journalism by The Irish Times

It wasn't a claim by the Irish Times of 2%, it was an accurate report of the estimate by one member of counter staff. Anecdotal, to be sure, but certainly indicative.

Anyway, it's beside the point, in the sense that using Eircode won't get your post to its destination faster, nor will it delay it if you don't. It's redundant, so far as An Post is concerned.

SPDUB

gizmo555 wrote: »

It wasn't a claim by the Irish Times of 2%, it was an accurate report of the estimate by one member of counter staff. Anecdotal, to be sure, but certainly indicative.

The only thing it's indicative of is bad journalism by the Irish Times where someone forgot the journalism ethos to question everything because with the smallest bit of thought you would realise that the post the counter staff sees is a small amount of items where someone purchases a stamp in that PO let alone most items posted on that day .

So no that claim of 2% is in no way indicative when it's only a small sunset of a small subset

anothernight

To be fair, there's probably not much difference between the letters that are handed in at the counter and those that are posted directly. It's a very small subsection, yes, but why would those letters be different than the others? Is a particular section of Irish society more likely to take their letters to the counter at the post office? Older people maybe? Office workers? The unemployed? People under 25?
Unless there's a marked difference between senders who use the post office counter and senders who don't, I think it's reasonable to assume that letters sent through the post office are representative of other letters.

The claim is clearly anecdotal anyway and should be taken as such, but I don't see why it should be dismissed as bad journalism.

EDIT: On second thought, I suppose people are less likely to use Eircode where it's too much hassle for them to look it up (again, bad implementation), and the post office is probably one of those places. If people are addressing their letters right at the post office, I suppose it might be less likely that they use Eircode. Do many people do that?

Sam Russell

anothernight wrote: »

EDIT: On second thought, I suppose people are less likely to use Eircode where it's too much hassle for them to look it up (again, bad implementation), and the post office is probably one of those places. If people are addressing their letters right at the post office, I suppose it might be less likely that they use Eircode. Do many people do that?

For non-unique addresses, I do not believe it is possible to look up the Eircode, as the property must be identified on an Ordnance Survey map, and if you do not know the area (all you have is the person's names and address) then that is impossible. It is bad design as well as bad implementation. Unique addresses should have been sorted, or at least an implementation plan to do so.

TheChizler

Sam Russell wrote: »

For non-unique addresses, I do not believe it is possible to look up the Eircode, as the property must be identified on an Ordnance Survey map, and if you do not know the area (all you have is the person's names and address) then that is impossible. It is bad design as well as bad implementation. Unique addresses should have been sorted, or at least an implementation plan to do so.

Leaving aside the issue of eliminating non-unique addresses, how does people not being able to identify properties in an area they don't know make a postcode badly designed?

Sam Russell

TheChizler wrote: »

Leaving aside the issue of eliminating non-unique addresses, how does people not being able to identify properties in an area they don't know make a postcode badly designed?

The post code design does not allow any kind of lookup for non-unique addresses unless one knows its location on an ordnance survey map. That is bad design in my book.

If I know someone lives in 23, the Avenue, Sometown, then I can get the Eircode from the finder - no problem. If I know Jim Murphy lives in Ballymorebeg, Ballygobackwards, I have no chance of getting the Eircode, but I can send him a letter asking him to send me his Eircode and being very certain that my letter will get to him without the Eircode. That is bad design, not just bad implementation.

TheChizler

Sam Russell wrote: »

The post code design does not allow any kind of lookup for non-unique addresses unless one knows its location on an ordnance survey map. That is bad design in my book.

It seems like the only solution to that design requirement is to forget about postcodes altogether and give everyone unique addresses. A postcode design requirement that makes postcodes redundant?

Banjoxed

TheChizler wrote: »

It seems like the only solution to that design requirement is to forget about postcodes altogether and give everyone unique addresses. A postcode design requirement that makes postcodes redundant?

But sure the Eircodes are unique to each house anyway. I live in Donegal and have been able to match houses to Eircodes off the map.

Sam Russell

Banjoxed wrote: »

But sure the Eircodes are unique to each house anyway. I live in Donegal and have been able to match houses to Eircodes off the map.

You can only match the property off the map if you already know where the property is on the map. If you only know the address, you cannot, but the postie can - but then he does not use Eircode.

my3cents

Sam Russell wrote: »

You can only match the property off the map if you already know where the property is on the map. If you only know the address, you cannot, but the postie can - but then he does not use Eircode.

The few people that definitely use Eircode are those that have to make the final delivery to the door. My postman looks up the Eircode on his own smart phone when he gets the none unique address senario. It seems that people in this position are keen to get their own mail and could be some of the few that are using eircodes. If the postman is using Eircode then I'm sure couriers in the same situation are using them.

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

The post code design does not allow any kind of lookup for non-unique addresses unless one knows its location on an ordnance survey map. That is bad design in my book.

It's amazing how often this bizarre trope comes up: that the only way anyone in the world anyone ever discovers another person's postcode is through some convoluted database lookup process. You'd swear nobody ever told another person their postcode as part of their address in the history of the world ever.

In the real world, people don't have to look up each other's postcodes. I know my brother's UK postcode, because when he moved into his house, he told me his address including his postcode. When Irish people get over their reluctance to accept that, y'know, we have postcodes now, we'll start telling each other what our address is, including the postcode, just like everybody in every other country does.

I know that's a difficult concept for people to accept who think that Eircodes are somehow the worst thing that's ever happened ever, but the rest of us will just get on with it and use them, what with us being grownups and all.

Sam Russell

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's amazing how often this bizarre trope comes up: that the only way anyone in the world anyone ever discovers another person's postcode is through some convoluted database lookup process. You'd swear nobody ever told another person their postcode as part of their address in the history of the world ever.

In the real world, people don't have to look up each other's postcodes. I know my brother's UK postcode, because when he moved into his house, he told me his address including his postcode. When Irish people get over their reluctance to accept that, y'know, we have postcodes now, we'll start telling each other what our address is, including the postcode, just like everybody in every other country does.

I know that's a difficult concept for people to accept who think that Eircodes are somehow the worst thing that's ever happened ever, but the rest of us will just get on with it and use them, what with us being grownups and all.

That is precisely my point. The only sure way to get an Eircode for someone who lives in a non-unique address is to write to them at that address and ask them to send it to you. The Eircode look up service cannot do it unless you can find the address on an OS map (which requires you to know where the address actually is).

It is like trying to find someone's mobile number. There is no directory for mobiles.

gizmo555

oscarBravo wrote: »

I know that's a difficult concept for people to accept who think that Eircodes are somehow the worst thing that's ever happened ever, but the rest of us will just get on with it and use them, what with us being grownups and all.

I don't think Eircodes are the worst thing ever - I do think they're a very poor implementation of a postcode system, which as we've seen cost more than double the budgeted amount, for fairly doubtful benefit.

And as for using them, since for all the difference it makes to An Post you might as well be writing the 25th Psalm on a letter as an Eircode, I don't think I'll bother. Maybe that's childish of me . . .

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is precisely my point. The only sure way to get an Eircode for someone who lives in a non-unique address is to write to them at that address and ask them to send it to you.

Are you seriously, honestly, hand-on-heart telling me that you genuinely can't think of any way of asking someone for their Eircode other than to write them a letter?

It is like trying to find someone's mobile number. There is no directory for mobiles.

I guess that's why mobile phones never caught on.

anothernight

oscarBravo wrote: »

In the real world, people don't have to look up each other's postcodes. I know my brother's UK postcode, because when he moved into his house, he told me his address including his postcode. When Irish people get over their reluctance to accept that, y'know, we have postcodes now, we'll start telling each other what our address is, including the postcode, just like everybody in every other country does.

...which is why Eircode should've been made a compulsory part of the address, just as in other countries, and not an optional thing that must be looked up, making people see it as just extra effort for no benefit. Again, bad implementation.

If Eircode was part of the address, I would guess most people would know their own Eircode off by heart by now. I've said it before and I'll said it again: to me, as a non-business user, having to look up my postcode is the same as having to look up my street name or my house number.

Judging by the grand total of zero Eircodes I got when updating my Christmas address list this year (for Christmas cards, you see), I'm gonna take a guess that none of the people who got a Christmas card from me actually knows their own Eircode yet. Every time I've moved (outside of Ireland, and there's been a few times), it took me less than a day to know my postcode, because I had to know my own address to do pretty much anything. Making Eircode an optional parameter is what's making people take so long to know theirs. Bad design, bad implementation.


I was really looking forward to having a proper postcode in Ireland, ever since I moved there back in 2004. Didn't happen while I was still there. It's downright shameful that it took so long to get one, at such a large expense, and yet it was so badly done.

anothernight

My fiancé runs the IT delivery systems for a bunch of takeaways and food chains all over the country. Addresses are stored on each of the systems to make deliveries quicker for repeat customers. I asked him whether people are putting in their Eircodes. "No, not really. Why would they?" was the answer. Some of the systems don't even have Eircode slots in the new user pages because the businesses that commissioned the systems didn't want to have to pay for an update, since they saw no benefit.

My fiancé says it makes no difference to the delivery drivers because Eircode doesn't work on their satnavs anyway.

blade1

anothernight wrote: »

My fiancé runs the IT delivery systems for a bunch of takeaways and food chains all over the country. Addresses are stored on each of the systems to make deliveries quicker for repeat customers. I asked him whether people are putting in their Eircodes. "No, not really. Why would they?" was the answer. Some of the systems don't even have Eircode slots in the new user pages because the businesses that commissioned the systems didn't want to have to pay for an update, since they saw no benefit.

My fiancé says it makes no difference to the delivery drivers because Eircode doesn't work on their satnavs anyway.

Anyone with a smart phone can just use that for the eircode.

I got a delivery from Tesco's last week and even though I live 35 miles from where the driver came he found me because I provided my eircode which he told me he used.

TheChizler

anothernight wrote: »

...which is why Eircode should've been made a compulsory part of the address, just as in other countries, and not an optional thing that must be looked up, making people see it as just extra effort for no benefit. Again, bad implementation.

How do you make it compulsory? Bin all envelopes without one?

anothernight

blade1 wrote: »

Anyone with a smart phone can just use that for the eircode.

I got a delivery from Tesco's last week and even though I live 35 miles from where the driver came he found me because I provided my eircode which he told me he used.

I pointed that out to him and he said they don't do that because it doesn't save them any time, making it pointless. Bear in mind that these shops don't service a very large area so on the rare occasions that they need to get directions, using their sat nav with the long address is faster than opening a website on their phone and letting it redirect to google maps (as Eircode.ie does), especially when most customers aren't providing Eircodes anyway. (In the systems that do allow that option. As I mentioned, not all of them do as some of the businesses involved didn't want to pay for a system update that they deemed of no benefit to their business)

Sam Russell

oscarBravo wrote: »

Are you seriously, honestly, hand-on-heart telling me that you genuinely can't think of any way of asking someone for their Eircode other than to write them a letter?

If I have their non-unique address, the postal service delivers the letter. If I do not have their Eircode, the letter gets delivered anyway. If I have their phone number, I could call them and ask them for their Eircode but it would make no difference to the delivery of the letter so why would I do that?

But what if I do not have their number? Well, I write to them in the certain knowledge that the letter will be delivered.

But I only wanted to send them a Christmas Card - so why would I do any of that? Just send the card and leave it up to postie.

But I am serious in that if you know someone's address but not the location of their property on an OS map then it is not possible to find their Eircode without asking them or writing to them. Perhaps someone could answer this.

blade1

Sam Russell wrote: »

If I have their non-unique address, the postal service delivers the letter. If I do not have their Eircode, the letter gets delivered anyway. If I have their phone number, I could call them and ask them for their Eircode but it would make no difference to the delivery of the letter so why would I do that?

But what if I do not have their number? Well, I write to them in the certain knowledge that the letter will be delivered.

But I only wanted to send them a Christmas Card - so why would I do any of that? Just send the card and leave it up to postie.

But I am serious in that if you know someone's address but not the location of their property on an OS map then it is not possible to find their Eircode without asking them or writing to them. Perhaps someone could answer this.

If I'm picking you up right, you can get someone's eircode by their address.

Sam Russell

blade1 wrote: »

If I'm picking you up right, you can get someone's eircode by their address.

Only by writing to them and asking for it.

gctest50

Sam Russell wrote: »

Only by writing to them and asking for it.

or phone them and ask

or email them and ask

you only have to ask it once, then you will know their Eircode for ever and ever and ever


a bit like you do with mobile phone numbers

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is like trying to find someone's mobile number. There is no directory for mobiles.

blade1

Just say your address is 17 Patrick Street Cork.
Are ye saying I can't get the eircode for there without asking?

MBSnr

blade1 wrote: »

Just say your address is 17 Patrick Street Cork.
Are ye saying I can't get the eircode for there without asking?

No. Any numbered addresses you can find out the Eircode via
https://finder.eircode.ie/#/
and now
http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

However I live in the townland Ballymiddleofnowhere in Mayo. What's my Eircode? Only Eircode and I know, unless I share it. Only those who know where my house is on an OSI map can look it up.

I see what Sam is saying. There is an issue which won't go away unless Eircodes become more widely used (and supported on Google maps and Sat Navs) or we remove the non unique rural addresses, which can't help in looking up the Eircode. At present I use my Eircode but it's not much use giving it to anyone at present. They'd prefer I give directions over the phone...

TheChizler

TheChizler wrote: »

How do you make it compulsory? Bin all envelopes without one?

It's very simple to make its adoption widespread, whenever new customers sign up for anything that requires a name & address, just be sure to make providing the postcode mandatory as part of the registration process.

The main reason users are slow to adopt the postcodes is simply down to businesses not being proactive in using them. Just because the systems are not currently in place to make full use of them, it shouldn't prevent organisations from adding the customer's postcodes to their records now, rather than trying to get them later.

Sam Russell

MBSnr wrote: »

No. Any numbered addresses you can find out the Eircode via
https://finder.eircode.ie/#/
and now
http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

However I live in the townland Ballymiddleofnowhere in Mayo. What's my Eircode? Only Eircode and I know, unless I share it. Only those who know where my house is on an OSI map can look it up.

I see what Sam is saying. There is an issue which won't go away unless Eircodes become more widely used (and supported on Google maps and Sat Navs) or we remove the non unique rural addresses, which can't help in looking up the Eircode. At present I use my Eircode but it's not much use giving it to anyone at present. They'd prefer I give directions over the phone...

At last, someone who is not a blind fanboy of Eircode.

If you have a non-unique address and you do not know where the property is on an OS map, it is not possible to find the Eircode except by asking the addressee - which is not much use if you do not know them.

gctest50

MBSnr wrote: »

However I live in the townland Ballymiddleofnowhere in Mayo. What's my Eircode? Only Eircode and I know, unless I share it.

Only those who know where my house is on an OSI map can look it up.
....

and what reason would anyone who you have not shared your Eircode with need to send you something ?

my3cents

Sam Russell wrote: »

At last, someone who is not a blind fanboy of Eircode.

If you have a non-unique address and you do not know where the property is on an OS map, it is not possible to find the Eircode except by asking the addressee - which is not much use if you do not know them.

But why would you want to?

If I want a delivery made to me at a non unique address with no excuses about not being able to find me I include my Eircode. If someone doesn't bother using their Eircode then that's their loss.

gctest50

Sam Russell wrote: »

At last, someone who is not a blind fanboy of Eircode....

You could paste in your Eircode in your next post and someone could drive straight to your house.

what more do you need ?

my3cents

I'm certainly not a fanboy of Eircode but now that every house has an Eircode (OK I bet their are still the odd exceptions) why not use it.

Why not give An Post the finger by putting your Eircode on all your correspondence and see how long before they get the message rather than saying lets do the minimum necessary and not bother because someone else isn't bothering - there's an Irish motto in there somewhere.

blade1

my3cents wrote: »

I'm certainly not a fanboy of Eircode but now that every house has an Eircode (OK I bet their are still the odd exceptions) why not use it.

Why not give An Post the finger by putting your Eircode on all your correspondence and see how long before they get the message rather than saying lets do the minimum necessary and not bother because someone else isn't bothering - there's an Irish motto in there somewhere.

Just curious,
What are the reasons you think an post need it for?

my3cents

my3cents wrote: »

I'm certainly not a fanboy of Eircode but now that every house has an Eircode (OK I bet their are still the odd exceptions) why not use it.

Why not give An Post the finger by putting your Eircode on all your correspondence and see how long before they get the message rather than saying lets do the minimum necessary and not bother because someone else isn't bothering - there's an Irish motto in there somewhere.

And some people get very hostile towards foreigners who make up Irish jokes, while not realising that we hand it to them on a plate.:rolleyes:

blade1

blade1 wrote: »

Just curious,
What are the reasons you think an post need it for?

From what I have been reading here and elsewhere, they'd rather not have it at all as it undermines their monopoly.

Sam Russell

gctest50 wrote: »

and what reason would anyone who you have not shared your Eircode with need to send you something ?

Perhaps a Christmas card. I do not know the Eircode of a single relative in Ireland and those without unique addresses I have no way of ascertaining one for them. If An Post required them, I could not send many out.

MBSnr

gctest50 wrote: »

and what reason would anyone who you have not shared your Eircode with need to send you something ?

Erm... You do realise that packages arrive without Eircodes on them even though they were ordered with an Eircode...
Courier has my address but can't find out my Eircode from it - therefore cannot find the house without phoning me.

gctest50

Sam Russell wrote: »

Perhaps a Christmas card. I do not know the Eircode of a single relative in Ireland and those without unique addresses I have no way of ascertaining one for them. If An Post required them, I could not send many out.

Do you know where any of their houses are ?

my3cents

blade1 wrote: »

Just curious,
What are the reasons you think an post need it for?

Exactly the same reason that anyone else in a rural area with non unique addresses and multiple families with the same name so they right person gets the right mail.

Then it could also make it easier to train new/replacement postman. The currant system has the old postman taking the new guy around to each address so they can make hand made notes on all the addresses on the route. Hmmm there's one for the Data Protection people.

As I said my postman uses Eircode on his own personal phone because it makes life easier for him. The amount of hassle he'd get if someone read personal mail that should have gone to another person with the same name makes it well worth his time and effort checking.

TheChizler

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's very simple to make its adoption widespread, whenever new customers sign up for anything that requires a name & address, just be sure to make providing the postcode mandatory as part of the registration process.

The main reason users are slow to adopt the postcodes is simply down to businesses not being proactive in using them. Just because the systems are not currently in place to make full use of them, it shouldn't prevent organisations from adding the customer's postcodes to their records now, rather than trying to get them later.

I agree that would work but I think they were saying they should have been made compulsory legally, which I don't think is practical. Or necessary.

my3cents

TheChizler wrote: »

I agree that would work but I think they were saying they should have been made compulsory legally, which I don't think is practical. Or necessary.

I can remember when the postcodes were first sent out on the UK it wasn't long before there was an ad campaign that indicated that any mail without a postcode could be held up, what better reason to use it.

Sam Russell

my3cents wrote: »

I can remember when the postcodes were first sent out on the UK it wasn't long before there was an ad campaign that indicated that any mail without a postcode could be held up, what better reason to use it.

... if the postage rate was less - as in the Leap Card.

gctest50

Sam Russell wrote: »

... if the postage rate was less - as in the Leap Card.

That's the best idea yet

Have Eircode - standard rate

No Eircode - double rate ( 2 stamps or whatever )

my3cents

gctest50 wrote: »

That's the best idea yet

Have Eircode - standard rate

No Eircode - double rate ( 2 stamps or whatever )

You could even sell that to An Post.

gctest50

.
It could be a bit like Ryanair when you don't have your ticket printed off ............. surcharge time