Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

Sam Russell

gctest50 wrote: »

That's the best idea yet

Have Eircode - standard rate

No Eircode - double rate ( 2 stamps or whatever )

I would have thought:

Have Eircode - 60 cents

No Eircode - 70 cents. (which is the current standard rate)

Let us not encourage An Post to profiteer.

gctest50

Sam Russell wrote: »

..............

Let us not encourage An Post to profiteer.

It woudn't be profiteering though - stick an "incomplete address" kinda sticker on it

Full address = address including Eircode

Incomplete address = address with no Eircode

An Post could use

or

It's not that difficult to get the message out there.

anothernight

I would agree, except for the fact that Eircode is currently optional. They should make it an official part of addresses before telling people that their address is incomplete without their Eircode. Why would most people bother to use an optional parameter when they've been doing just fine (in their minds, not necessarily always true) without it? But if they're told that the postcode must be part of their address, they will use it. No need to increase complexity in postal costs or anything. People in other countries cope with postcodes as an official part of their addresses just fine. Irish people would too, if only Eircode had been set up as a non-optional parameter.

I don't know if they still do it, but at least a few years ago An Post would mark your letters as wrongly addressed, even if they made it to your house (delays might happen, but they often did get there in the end). If Eircode was compulsory they could easily do that, even if the letters would still reach their destination without the Eircode. People would cop on eventually and start using it.


As it stands, with delivery companies not using it, An Post not requiring them, and the Eircode website spelling out that nothing will happen if people don't use it, why would people in easy-to-reach areas bother to use it?

https://www.eircode.ie/faqs wrote:

What will happen if I do not use an Eircode?
Nothing, some private organisations may require an Eircode in the future so if you choose not to use Eircode you may not be able to purchase/deal with these companies.

I hadn't read the FAQs in full before. They read like the people who came up with Eircode went out of their way to make it as unappealing to use as possible:
"What are the benefits? Facilitating deliveries... by companies that won't bother to implement it in their IT systems because they don't want to pay for it."
"Will An Post use it? Nope"
"Will my post arrive without it? Yup"
"Will my post arrive with only Eircode? An Post requires a full address before they will attempt delivery"

Marked exception being emergency services. The Eircode website does say that they'll be using it from September (2015, I assume). Can't be bothered to google to see if this has materialised, but I really hope it has.

Carawaystick

gctest50 wrote: »

That's the best idea yet

Have Eircode - standard rate

No Eircode - double rate ( 2 stamps or whatever )

Luckily, unlike public sector public transit, Mail delivery is deregulated, meaning private companies can deliver post for less than the Post can.

Also you could post it in Newry or Strabane...

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you have a non-unique address and you do not know where the property is on an OS map, it is not possible to find the Eircode except by asking the addressee - which is not much use if you do not know them.

your statement is true, but where it falls down is that theres no real scenario it applies to.

for what purpose exactly do you want this persons eircode?
who visits people they do not know and for what purpose?

the scenarios in day to day life i can think of are:

Deliveries: should have the eircode as part of address, if not you can ask them
Visiting friends and family: you do know them so you can ask
repair /service people: as per deliveries above

i genuinely don't understand the scenario of "i want the persons eircode but i don't know them and can't ask them"?

its a bit like saying: "if i drive my car to the moon, theres no possible way of refuelling it when i get there....therefore theres an issue with petrol stations"

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

your statement is true, but where it falls down is that theres no real scenario it applies to.

for what purpose exactly do you want this persons eircode?
who visits people they do not know and for what purpose?

the scenarios in day to day life i can think of are:

Deliveries: should have the eircode as part of address, if not you can ask them
Visiting friends and family: you do know them so you can ask
repair /service people: as per deliveries above

i genuinely don't understand the scenario of "i want the persons eircode but i don't know them and can't ask them"?

its a bit like saying: "if i drive my car to the moon, theres no possible way of refuelling it when i get there....therefore theres an issue with petrol stations"

This is the scenario.

A person I know has moved to a new address which I have not visited and is a non-unique address. I do not feel I know them well enough to ask them for their Eircode as I just exchange Christmas cards with them and do not have their phone number. I think that they may think it is an intrusion to ask for their Eircode as many would think it is personal information. (I know that strictly speaking it is not but that does not stop people thinking it so - particularly those in non-unique address areas).

I would have thought this was not uncommon.

I am talking about cousins, nephew/nieces that I generally only see at weddings and funerals but we keep in touch by exchanging Christmas cards with family news included. I can think of at least a dozen people in that category for me.

blade1

Why can't the person moving to the new area just let the local Post Office know where they have moved to?
Surely it's not that big a deal.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

This is the scenario.

A person I know has moved to a new address which I have not visited and is a non-unique address. I do not feel I know them well enough to ask them for their Eircode as I just exchange Christmas cards with them and do not have their phone number. I think that they may think it is an intrusion to ask for their Eircode as many would think it is personal information. (I know that strictly speaking it is not but that does not stop people thinking it so - particularly those in non-unique address areas).

I would have thought this was not uncommon.

I am talking about cousins, nephew/nieces that I generally only see at weddings and funerals but we keep in touch by exchanging Christmas cards with family news included. I can think of at least a dozen people in that category for me.

Well for your first scenario, the fact that it's a new address means you have absolutely no way of sending them a Christmas card unless you specifically ask them for their new address, they may by default include the eircode anyway if it's non unique, if not, I see no reason not to ask for it. or if they don't give you their eircode as part of their new address, then simply dont use it, send to the address minus the eircode and let An Post worry about it. either way, you've no scenario blocked

For your second scenario, you can continue to post your Christmas cards to the cousins as eircode isn't mandatory, so you've no need or reason to ask them for it. But again, there'd be no harm in doing so at the next family gathering.

Sam Russell

So basically you are saying ignore Eircode. Also we should ignore the €38m that it cost.

It will soon equal the €55m that eVoting cost us - let me know how that worked out.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

So basically you are saying ignore Eircode. Also we should ignore the €38m that it cost.

It will soon equal the €55m that eVoting cost us - let me know how that worked out.

you must have missed the part there where i said to ask them for it when they give you their new address or in the other scenario ask at family gatherings.

if you're worried your family won't disclose their postcode to you, then your problem can't be fixed by any other postcode either.

are you looking to change the topic now and argue about the costs? sorry I'm not biting.

your theoretical "problem" with not being able to find a non unique addresses postcode is bogus, its a manufactured issued by you that doesn't really exist in practice

gizmo555

Sam Russell wrote: »

Also we should ignore the €38m that it cost.

It's a sunk cost. In any consideration of the merits or otherwise of Eircode now that it's implemented, it should be ignored.

Sam Russell

ukoda wrote: »

you must have missed the part there where i said to ask them for it when they give you their new address or in the other scenario ask at family gatherings.

'How are things going? And by the way, what's your Eircode?'

I don't think so.

if you're worried your family won't disclose their postcode to you, then your problem can't be fixed by any other postcode either.

In the UK, I just type in the address and I get the postcode - no bother.

are you looking to change the topic now and argue about the costs? sorry I'm not biting.

No just equating one monumental disasterous waste with another.

your theoretical "problem" with not being able to find a non unique addresses postcode is bogus, its a manufactured issued by you that doesn't really exist in practice

No, it is actually a problem that has arisen because I am not certain even postie knows where they live.

my3cents

Sam Russell wrote: »

'How are things going? And by the way, what's your Eircode?'

I don't think so.

LOL you probably rant on the same way to your relatives as you do here if you think they'd be unhappy to tell you what their address is including their Eircode.

Either that or you have some very strange relatives.

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

'How are things going? And by the way, what's your Eircode?'

I don't think so.


In the UK, I just type in the address and I get the postcode - no bother.


No just equating one monumental disasterous waste with another.



No, it is actually a problem that has arisen because I am not certain even postie knows where they live.

"did you get my christmas card last year? i must take your eircode to add to your address......"

UK has unique addressing, thats where the bother comes from in Ireland, but thats not eircodes fault, however it can fix it if everyone gets on board with eircode and starts doing things like adding it to their "return" address when they do send out their christmas cards to you and others, then after a while it becomes common and eventually meaning that if you have their address then it will just include their eircode as its now commonplace.

there are people who look at everything and find problems, and there are people who can look at something and find solutions.

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

So basically you are saying ignore Eircode.

There's something deeply disingenuous about quoting someone, and then saying "so basically what you are saying is <something completely different from what they said>".

If you have to ask someone for their new address, ask them for their Eircode at the same time. If they don't want to tell you their Eircode, they won't. If someone asks me to remind them of my address (several people seem to need to do this each year), I include the Eircode, and they can decide whether or not to use it.

None of this amounts to ignoring Eircode. It's all part of the process of gradual adoption. If you have a problem with gradual adoption, make the case for making the codes compulsory - but you don't get to make the case while still bleating about privacy issues.

As for e-voting, there are basically no parallels, beyond the fact that the government spent money on both of them.

GJG

Sam Russell wrote: »

This is the scenario.

A person I know has moved to a new address which I have not visited and is a non-unique address. I do not feel I know them well enough to ask them for their Eircode as I just exchange Christmas cards with them and do not have their phone number. I think that they may think it is an intrusion to ask for their Eircode as many would think it is personal information. (I know that strictly speaking it is not but that does not stop people thinking it so - particularly those in non-unique address areas).

I would have thought this was not uncommon.

I think that this is quite typical of the objections to Eircode; you don't seem to appreciate that this objection is actually not an objection to Eircode at all; could you suggest any type of postcode that would have avoided the perceived problem? I don't think so. There is no postcode that could solve your problem (other than the "I wouldn't start from here" solutions), because your problem is an interpersonal problem, not an address problem, not an Eircode problem.

Only in Ireland would people expect the government to solve their problems of social awkwardness where they feel shy to ask for someone's full address to send them a Christmas card. The fact that you were bold enough to get their address in the first place but too shy to ask for their Eircode speaks volumes. That you imagine the design of the national postcode system should be centred around some unknown solution to that problem takes the biscuit.

When Skype or mobile phones came out, nobody knew anyone's ID or number to start with. We got over it. It's time for you to build a bridge and do the same thing.

BowWow

Signed some documents relating to a house purchase the week before Christmas - Solicitor asked for, and put eircode on documents. Seemingly doing this with all documents to insure accuracy.

ukoda

So here's eBay pointing a customer to finder.eircode.ie because he didn't know he had a postcode

https://twitter.com/askebay/status/681904870862000128



https://twitter.com/askebay/status/681904913832656896

Alun

I bought a washing machine in Power City yesterday, and they had a field for Eircode on their address form the salesman was filling in. Now, he didn't ask me for it, but I offered it to him (yes, I am one if those non-existent people who know theirs!) and he filled it in. I asked if they used it and he confirmed they do use it for deliveries to out of the way locations. I assume the drivers use their phones, but didn't inquire further.

ukoda

Alun wrote: »

I bought a washing machine in Power City yesterday, and they had a field for Eircode on their address form the salesman was filling in. Now, he didn't ask me for it, but I offered it to him (yes, I am one if those non-existent people who know theirs!) and he filled it in. I asked if they used it and he confirmed they do use it for deliveries to out of the way locations. I assume the drivers use their phones, but didn't inquire further.

contrary to what the FTAI and others would like us to believe, it's pretty easy to integrate eircode into a delivery system, for example take the eircode from the customer, look up ECAD, get the geo coordinates and send them on to the drivers handheld or in truck system with the delivery details. This can all be automated along with optimal routes and multi drop points. Or if it's not that advanced, put the geo's on the docket you hand you the driver and let him punch in the coordinates on his sat nav.

marmurr1916

GJG wrote: »

I think that this is quite typical of the objections to Eircode; you don't seem to appreciate that this objection is actually not an objection to Eircode at all; could you suggest any type of postcode that would have avoided the perceived problem? I don't think so. There is no postcode that could solve your problem (other than the "I wouldn't start from here" solutions), because your problem is an interpersonal problem, not an address problem, not an Eircode problem.

Only in Ireland would people expect the government to solve their problems of social awkwardness where they feel shy to ask for someone's full address to send them a Christmas card. The fact that you were bold enough to get their address in the first place but too shy to ask for their Eircode speaks volumes. That you imagine the design of the national postcode system should be centred around some unknown solution to that problem takes the biscuit.

When Skype or mobile phones came out, nobody knew anyone's ID or number to start with. We got over it. It's time for you to build a bridge and do the same thing.

'What's your Eircode?'

'How dare you! You might as well have asked what my wife and I get up to in the bedroom. I challenge you to a duel - pistols at dawn.'

:D:D

Ted_YNWA

marmurr1916 wrote: »

'What's your Eircode?'

'How dare you! You might as well have asked what my wife and I get up to in the bedroom. I challenge you to a duel - pistols at dawn.'

:D:D

Where do you want this duel to happen?

Do you know the GPS /Eircode for it.,

Cookie_Monster

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you have to ask someone for their new address, ask them for their Eircode at the same time.

what's the likelihood that they actually know what it is, or indeed care, though?

oscarBravo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what's the likelihood that they actually know what it is, or indeed care, though?

I don't know. I don't get the point of the question.

If you don't care what someone's Eircode is, don't bother asking them for it. If you do care, ask. What I don't get is the number of people who are reluctant to disclose their Eircode or to ask anyone else for theirs, but who simultaneously bitch about the slow uptake of postcodes in Ireland.

Eircodes will be slowly adopted because people will slowly get used to being asked for them, and slowly get used to replying with them. If you're unhappy with the rate of adoption, feel free to suggest ways it could be improved.

L1011

ukoda wrote: »

So here's eBay pointing a customer to finder.eircode.ie because he didn't know he had a postcode

https://twitter.com/askebay/status/681904870862000128



https://twitter.com/askebay/status/681904913832656896

The loc8 trolling response there is utterly pathetic. I hope its not their official account as its so unprofessional as to be childish

Eircode is already vastly more accepted than loc8 was despite the building vandalism and similar stunts

Sam Russell

Mod: can we leave out snipes at Loc8 as they have nothing to do with the implementation of Eircode - the subject of this thread.

I have closed the anomolies thread because it had gone hopelessly off topic.

ukoda

Posted in other thread but probably belongs here


https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/661169507478687745


I'm thinking dominos or just-eat are the only ones with a nationwide network?


Also the www.geohive.ie site using eircode


A lot of councils using it on www.checktheregister.ie too

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Posted in other thread but probably belongs here

Since you're going to keep reposting the same stuff, it's only fair to repost the responses as well.

https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/661169507478687745


I'm thinking dominos or just-eat are the only ones with a nationwide network?

If we had a different kind of open postcode structure, you wouldn't need to use an app to make sense of postcodes. As an amusing (or tragic) aside about how apps aren't the be all and end all, take a look at this story of a couple who missed out on a lottery jackpot because of a problem with an app

Not that I have anything against apps, but you shouldn't be forced to buy one in order to make sense of information hidden in a public database.

Also the www.geohive.ie site using eircode


A lot of councils using it on www.checktheregister.ie too

Again, it turns out that a lot of Eircodes can't be found on this site, due to problems with address inconsistencies. If your address on the electoral register is not the same as the one in ECAD, then your eircode might not be found.

ukoda

These guys are offering a free trial of eircode software, the form you fill out to register is the first use I've seen of eircode using address validation, you enter your eircode and hit "look up address" and that's it, your address is returned

http://www.eircodesoftware.ie/request_trial.asp

Having this as common place would cut down on so much hassle and box filling on websites

ukoda

Found another company using address validation

https://www.123.ie/insurance/car-insurance/quote.123#/quote-form

When you get down to the address part they ask "do you know your eircode" if you click yes, then you fill it in and it validates your address, if you click no, you manually type your address and it tries to validate it and if you get a match, it includes the eircode at the end

Irish Steve

Mods,

Can we PLEASE either close or lock these incredibly tortuous and circuitous Postcode threads for at least the next 6 months, on the basis that they're as boring and off topic as hell right now, and becoming increasingly vacuuous in their content. I find it slightly incredible that with a general election imminent, and the number of issues that are becoming clearer by the day, the most pressing issues to discuss in Infrastructure seems to be to navel gaze about how badly or otherwise the Eircode system has been implemented.

Sam Russell

Mod: I think this thread is up for closing as it is off topic. Most posters are not aware of the charter in the sticky at the third post. It should be read prior to posting.

We should be aware that some posters will be zealous about their preferred means or reason of/for putting infrastructure in place, but that this should be balanced. If you make a particular statement for or against a particular means or reason of/for putting relevant infrastructure in place, you should be willing to back it up.

This is ignored by those zealous posters both for and against Eircode.

6) Soapboxing, i.e. the constant repetition of a single viewpoint while refusing to entertain discussion or correction on it, is both disruptive and annoying, and will not be tolerated.

This is part of the above. If you have said it once, do not repeat it too soon after. We read it the first time, and it gets tiresome very quickly.

I will close this thread and infract the problem posters. if the level of discussion does not improve.

BoatMad

Sam Russell wrote: »

At last, someone who is not a blind fanboy of Eircode.

If you have a non-unique address and you do not know where the property is on an OS map, it is not possible to find the Eircode except by asking the addressee - which is not much use if you do not know them.

But this is a function of non unique addresses and nothing to do with eircode. No postal code can be " deduced " if you don't know the addressee lives !!

You could of course solve the problem by allowing the surname of the property owner to be displayed in an eircode search . But that brings up data protection issues

BoatMad

Look eircode for better or for worse is merely a hash into the GeoDirectory, in essence its a hyper link to that address record.

That was its design brief.

In that regard it has fulfilled its design brief.

Usage will come over time. I'd say a 10 year timeframe of the more correct review period l not 6 months or a year

marmurr1916

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: I think this thread is up for closing as it is off topic. Most posters are not aware of the charter in the sticky at the third post. It should be read prior to posting.



This is ignored by those zealous posters both for and against Eircode.



This is part of the above. If you have said it once, do not repeat it too soon after. We read it the first time, and it gets tiresome very quickly.

I will close this thread and infract the problem posters. if the level of discussion does not improve.

Another Eircode thread set to be closed? I guess we'll end up with just the Eircode Implementation thread...

marmurr1916

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Another Eircode thread set to be closed? I guess we'll end up with just the Eircode Implementation thread...

There isn't really much more to be said anyway, except for the implementation by various organisations & individuals.

marmurr1916

Eventually being asked for your Eircode will become routine, just as being asked for your postcode is routine in the UK.

This will spur people to check their Eircode, further increasing its use.

It's obviously going to be a gradual,organic process.

I look forward to the 'Nobody uses Eircode' threads five years from now...

marmurr1916

Deleted User wrote: »

There isn't really much more to be said anyway, except for the implementation by various organisations & individuals.

Indeed. Eircodes are here, they're not going away and their use is gradually increasing.

Sin é.

Sam Russell

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Another Eircode thread set to be closed? I guess we'll end up with just the Eircode Implementation thread...

If you need another Eircode thread then start one. Just because it says Eircode in the title does not make it the place to dump the same old stuff as has appeared in all the Eircode threads already.

This thread is about An Post not using Eircode but there has been few meaningful posts on this topic for some time. The debate has been falling significantly below the standard expected.

Google and Garmin have not implemented Eircode and there is no sign of An Post using it. What more can be said?

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you need another Eircode thread then start one. Just because it says Eircode in the title does not make it the place to dump the same old stuff as has appeared in all the Eircode threads already.

This thread is about An Post not using Eircode but there has been few meaningful posts on this topic for some time. The debate has been falling significantly below the standard expected.

Google and Garmin have not implemented Eircode and there is no sign of An Post using it. What more can be said?

Well there is a sign of An Post using it, they've updated their address checker to use it, so they aren't ignoring it really

http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

ukoda

If you want Siro broadband from Vodafone, they want your eircode

http://comingsoon.vodafone.ie/register/lightspeed-broadband

gizmo555

ukoda wrote: »

Well there is a sign of An Post using it, they've updated their address checker to use it, so they aren't ignoring it really

http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

For the purposes of sorting and delivering mail, which after all is the raison d'être of postcodes, they are.

ukoda

ukoda wrote: »

Well there is a sign of An Post using it, they've updated their address checker to use it, so they aren't ignoring it really

http://correctaddress.anpost.ie/pages/Search.aspx

that shows they are telling everyone "your correct address has an eircode in it"

https://www.eircode.ie/business/feature

Also, An Post GeoDirectory is a reseller of eircode solutions, another sign?


https://twitter.com/Postvox/status/626039703842762753

their official twitter account telling everyone that eircode is useful, another sign?

gizmo555

ukoda wrote: »

their official twitter account telling everyone that eircode is useful, another sign?

Useful how? Not so far as faster or more accurate delivery of mail is concerned, because An Post don't use it for that purpose.

ukoda

gizmo555 wrote: »

For the purposes of sorting and delivering mail, which after all is the raison d'être of postcodes, they are.

and have you been into their sorting offices to check this? or basing it on speculation and here say?

both the CEO of An Post and their Operations Director have told us they do use it

ukoda

the ONLY way to know for sure if a company does or does not use something is to ask them. as I've said, both the top guy of An Post and the Ops Director of An Post have publicly stated that they DO use eircode in their mail sortation process.

is this whole thread dedicated to calling these 2 people liars?

marmurr1916

ukoda wrote: »

the ONLY way to know for sure if a company does or does not use something is to ask them. as I've said, both the top guy of An Post and the Ops Director of An Post have publicly stated that they DO use eircode in their mail sortation process.

is this whole thread dedicated to calling these 2 people liars?

That would appear to be the case. Unless people on this thread have some insider knowledge of An Post's operations which prove that they're not using it, it should be closed down.

marmurr1916

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you need another Eircode thread then start one. Just because it says Eircode in the title does not make it the place to dump the same old stuff as has appeared in all the Eircode threads already.

I've no interest in starting another Eircode thread - I'm quite happy with the Implementation thread.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Google and Garmin have not implemented Eircode and there is no sign of An Post using it. What more can be said?

There are plenty of signs that An Post use it. ukoda has listed them.

gizmo555

ukoda wrote: »

the ONLY way to know for sure if a company does or does not use something is to ask them. as I've said, both the top guy of An Post and the Ops Director of An Post have publicly stated that they DO use eircode in their mail sortation process.

Minister Alex White answered a written question from Deputy Michael McGrath on December 3 last, which asked inter alia, "if the [Eircode] system is being fully used by An Post".

Minister White stated "Both the CEO and Mails Operations Director of An Post have stated publicly that An Post will use Eircodes in their mail operations." (My emphasis.)

Civil servants drafting written answers are very careful and precise in their use of language, because they cannot put their ministers in the position of misleading the Dáil. I have no doubt that if Minister White had been able to say that An Post is currently using Eircodes he would have done so. Instead, he used the future tense, which would seem to indicate that An Post isn't yet using them.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-12-03a.789