Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

ukoda

gizmo555 wrote: »

Minister Alex White answered a written question from Deputy Michael McGrath on December 3 last, which asked inter alia, "if the [Eircode] system is being fully used by An Post".

Minister White stated "Both the CEO and Mails Operations Director of An Post have stated publicly that An Post will use Eircodes in their mail operations." (My emphasis.)

Civil servants drafting written answers are very careful and precise in their use of language, because they cannot put their ministers in the position of misleading the Dáil. I have no doubt that if Minister White had been able to say that An Post is currently using Eircodes he would have done so. Instead, he used the future tense, which would seem to indicate that An Post isn't yet using them.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-12-03a.789

Well there you have your answer, if they haven't already then they will. Question answered.

Have you anything to show that this has changed? Have you anything to show it hasn't happened?

Because I've provided plenty of proof that they are using eircode in their correct address website, they are publicly stating its useful via Twitter, they actively encourage people on Twitter to add it to their address.

Like I said, neither of us have insider knowledge of their mail sorting. But basing it on:

They said they will (maybe are by now)
They updated their website
They promote it on Twitter
They are a reseller of eircode solutions

I think there are definitely clear signs of use and support of eircode by An Post.

BowWow

Was in Revenue Online today and noticed my Property Tax details now include my Eircode.

(Apologies if this info posted previously, cant remember seeing that).

gctest50

I think our shiny new Eircodes should be painted on the kerbs




this sorta craic :

http://www.123curbs.com/

GerardKeating

ukoda wrote: »

Found another company using address validation

https://www.123.ie/insurance/car-insurance/quote.123#/quote-form

When you get down to the address part they ask "do you know your eircode" if you click yes, then you fill it in and it validates your address, if you click no, you manually type your address and it tries to validate it and if you get a match, it includes the eircode at the end

This cannot be true, 123 is a subsidiary of An Post, and we call know (according to the Loco-8 folks) that AN Post do not use EirCode.

Curb your enthusiasm there bud, many of us don't have curbs. :P

ukoda

GerardKeating wrote: »

This cannot be true, 123 is a subsidiary of An Post, and we call know (according to the Loco-8 folks) that AN Post do not use EirCode.

I know you're joking here, but for the record, 123.ie isn't a subsidiary of An Post, it's part of RSA Group

GerardKeating

Deleted User wrote: »

There isn't really much more to be said anyway, except for the implementation by various organisations & individuals.

I suppose for fairness and equality, we should really have a thread bashing the Loco-8 code thingy.

GerardKeating

ukoda wrote: »

I know you're joking here, but for the record, 123.ie isn't a subsidiary of An Post, it's part of RSA Group

Weird, for some reason, I keep thinking they are part of An Post?

ukoda

GerardKeating wrote: »

Weird, for some reason, I keep thinking they are part of An Post?

No they were started by an Irish entrepreneur and then sold to RSA, then the same guy went on to start PrePay Power. Anyway this is off topic

On topic, I believe there is some sort of legislation that requires insurance companies to validate a customers postal address? I see notes on some insurance sites about this and I notice nearly all of them use address validation (geodirectory) when getting a quote, eircode will be very attractive to them for this

marmurr1916

GerardKeating wrote: »

I suppose for fairness and equality, we should really have a thread bashing the Loco-8 code thingy.

Used by millions. Ask any Irish person for their Loc-8 code and they'll rattle it off as easy as their date of birth.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we leave Loc8 out of this. It is off topic by a long way.

marmurr1916

clewbays

There are quite distinct ways of implementing Eircodes. Five implementation uses that spring to mind are: as part of your address; to capture and validate your address; location finding; for analysis; and for data consistency.

The most visible implementation is on a website where you have to provide your address with a specific question looking for your Eircode – this use can be blurred if the website uses the term Postcode which is more likely if it is an international transaction. The real implementation measure is whether the Eircode appears on the item despatched to you as some websites allow you to give it but do not use it as to write to you. Use of an Eircode as part of your address can be problematic in relation to the address line placement of the Eircode. An Post’s preference is to use it as the last address line but before any country line. This may not be consistent with international norms (if such exist) hence the website may place the Eircode in a confusing position e.g. D04 A9B9 Dublin 4. December/January is probably a peak period for online purchases so An Post and couriers should be seeing increased use of Eircodes on written post.

A more intensive use is where you are asked to provide your Eircode and it is used to capture or validate your address. In this case, ECAD or its equivalent (the GeoDirectory) are being used. The validation could be done interactively as you provide your details or subsequently within the company. Examples here are for register completeness and duplication checking. This is really full use of the unique relationship between an Eircode and an address line in ECAD. The electoral register for the upcoming election to ensure that a person is only on the register once may provide an important example of the use of this functionality.

The Eircode can be used for location finding by using tools like Eircode finder or the X/Y coordinates from ECAD. The need may be to find one address or to batch and sequence deliveries. The big win here will be when Eircodes can be directly used with Google Maps. It is unfortunate that the Google Maps facility was not available at launch. An important implementation for this use is when ambulances, fire brigades, taxis etc. are using them. Some courier companies have complained that a hierarchical code would have facilitated delivery routing. Using IT software to link individual Eircodes to Electoral Divisions in the ECAD file would permit such use.

A less direct use is when the Eircode is used for market research and statistical purposes. It may have been collected for correspondence purposes but is also used for this purpose. The company here may be examining where their customers come from by using other information in ECAD such as small areas or Electoral Divisions. Maps may also be created using the X/Y coordinates in ECAD to better illustrate the data. Many organisations could use Eircodes in this manner and the more successful companies in the future may be the ones that make such use of their data.

Linking files is the area where the Data Protection Office have a requirement to ensure that any such register matching is lawful as there are temptations to do such matching to identify unlikely pairings e.g. high-value vehicles owned by social welfare recipients. The public sector will probably be the main user for this method with the DPC monitoring any such activity. This use will be innovative and create the possibility for new insights by linking data on areas such as health, education, and socio-economic background.

plodder

Irish Steve wrote: »

Mods,

Can we PLEASE either close or lock these incredibly tortuous and circuitous Postcode threads for at least the next 6 months, on the basis that they're as boring and off topic as hell right now, and becoming increasingly vacuuous in their content. I find it slightly incredible that with a general election imminent, and the number of issues that are becoming clearer by the day, the most pressing issues to discuss in Infrastructure seems to be to navel gaze about how badly or otherwise the Eircode system has been implemented.

I think it would be better to have only one Eircode thread. It's too difficult to separate the different discussions, and/or they are too easily disrupted.

People who are genuinely not interested in it, can more easily ignore one thread, and those who just want to shut all discussion on the subject down, would have less of an excuse to achieve that.

plodder

gizmo555 wrote: »

Minister Alex White answered a written question from Deputy Michael McGrath on December 3 last, which asked inter alia, "if the [Eircode] system is being fully used by An Post".

Minister White stated "Both the CEO and Mails Operations Director of An Post have stated publicly that An Post will use Eircodes in their mail operations." (My emphasis.)

Civil servants drafting written answers are very careful and precise in their use of language, because they cannot put their ministers in the position of misleading the Dáil. I have no doubt that if Minister White had been able to say that An Post is currently using Eircodes he would have done so. Instead, he used the future tense, which would seem to indicate that An Post isn't yet using them.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-12-03a.789

They weren't so careful when answering this question.
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2015-09-22a.3999

During the dissemination phase of eircodes, Amárach, an independent body, conducted two parallel surveys, a face-to-face survey of 1,200 households and 200 business premises. The results of the surveys showed that 89% of the public knew the eircode for their address.

The survey showed that 89% knew their Eircode, or knew where to find it, which isn't all that surprising since they had just received the letter containing it, during the previous five days.

It's like saying everyone knows the phone number for Dublin Zoo, because they know it (or they know how to find it).

And that is misleading because the question asked was about their level of usage.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

I think it would be better to have only one Eircode thread. It's too difficult to separate the different discussions, and/or they are too easily disrupted.

People who are genuinely not interested in it, can more easily ignore one thread, and those who just want to shut all discussion on the subject down, would have less of an excuse to achieve that.

Or people could just stick to the topic of the thread.

There's only 2 now. Given that the ones that turn into a free for all b***h and moan get closed, I think it's pretty clear people are sick of rehashing the same old arguments over and over.

BoatMad

Google and Garmin have not implemented Eircode and there is no sign of An Post using it. What more can be said?

Both Google and Garmin are committed to building in eircodes to their applications ( I know this for a fact ). There are disagreements over licensing costs with Captiva , that have to be resolved. The technical challenges are minimal.

An posts OCR system will be upgraded over time to use eircode. For various political reasons An post did not want to have a national post code and is dragging its heels. Its been " told" to support eircodes

I'm involved in logistics software. All the courier companies will ultimately support eircode as they upgrade their IT solutions, despite some earlier protestations. However by and large Ireland is well served with digital road mapping and there is Not a compelling reason for courier companies to specifically upgrade just for eircode support. They will include it in the normal pattern of feature upgrades over time

This assumes the pricing /license model is modified. In reality consideration should be given to allowing very low or free licenses.

You need to allow 5 years or more to realistically evaluate eircodes progress.to make summations after 6-8 months is nonsense.

Sam Russell

Mod: I've renamed the thread to try and stop the usual squabble.

1. An Post are not implementing Eircode - yet. They are committed to doing so - sometime in the future. They have significant software upgrading to their sorting software and local deliveries to non-unique areas. This is bound to take time.

2. Government agencies are moving slowly towards implentation but it will take time.

3. Others are slowly moving towards implementation but the vast majority of potential users are waiting for something - not sure what.

As has been said - it will take five years at least or a significant change in cost and attitude.

We shall see.

No mention of non-Eircode matters.

listermint

BoatMad wrote: »

Both Google and Garmin are committed to building in eircodes to their applications ( I know this for a fact ). There are disagreements over licensing costs with Captiva , that have to be resolved. The technical challenges are minimal.

An posts OCR system will be upgraded over time to use eircode. For various political reasons An post did not want to have a national post code and is dragging its heels. Its been " told" to support eircodes

I'm involved in logistics software. All the courier companies will ultimately support eircode as they upgrade their IT solutions, despite some earlier protestations. However by and large Ireland is well served with digital road mapping and there is Not a compelling reason for courier companies to specifically upgrade just for eircode support. They will include it in the normal pattern of feature upgrades over time

This assumes the pricing /license model is modified. In reality consideration should be given to allowing very low or free licenses.

You need to allow 5 years or more to realistically evaluate eircodes progress.to make summations after 6-8 months is nonsense.

I dont see this in Google Maps 2016 or 2017 for that matter its not even on the priority list of things to resolve.

backlog you might say, no information as to garmin but i would be surprised if they werent the same.

ukoda

listermint wrote: »

I dont see this in Google Maps 2016 or 2017 for that matter its not even on the priority list of things to resolve.

backlog you might say, no information as to garmin but i would be surprised if they werent the same.

Can I ask how'd you'd know that? I would say it's definitely on the road map for 2016, they are already talking licensing deals (which may even be resolved by now) and implementation isn't going to be very complicated, in fact, I'd say it's one of the easiest implemations as its simply a look up to the geoditectory to return a coordinate and address, google maps already paid money to licence the geodirectory

BoatMad

listermint wrote: »

I dont see this in Google Maps 2016 or 2017 for that matter its not even on the priority list of things to resolve.

backlog you might say, no information as to garmin but i would be surprised if they werent the same.

Leaving aside the fact that Google is discussing licensing with Captiva.

Leaving aside the fact that Garmin will add it to products over the usual upgrade cycle ( which is about 2 years behind )

In the great scheme of things for Google , eircode is a pimple on its backside , but assuming it can agree terms , it will appear in the maps.

You have to appreciate what's going on behind closed doors and out of the public gaze and " official " pronouncements.

listermint

BoatMad wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that Google is discussing licensing with Captiva.

Leaving aside the fact that Garmin will add it to products over the usual upgrade cycle ( which is about 2 years behind )

In the great scheme of things for Google , eircode is a pimple on its backside , but assuming it can agree terms , it will appear in the maps.

You have to appreciate what's going on behind closed doors and out of the public gaze and " official " pronouncements.

I do appreciate it hence what i just said, this is on back log. So whatever 'pull' captiva sales and marketing think they have with Google behind closed doors and out of the public gaze is frankly pony.


There will be no Eircodes on Google Maps this year.

ukoda

listermint wrote: »

I do appreciate it hence what i just said, this is on back log. So whatever 'pull' captiva sales and marketing think they have with Google behind closed doors and out of the public gaze is frankly pony.


There will be no Eircodes on Google Maps this year.

I don't think anyone claimed capita have any sort of special "pull" anywhere, it's merely another business transaction for Google to get their hands on more data, and like i said, I don't see them dragging their heals on it, they've invested heavily in Ireland in terms of maps and transit data for Irish rail and LUAS and bus services, this is simply another step for them

GJG

listermint wrote: »

I do appreciate it hence what i just said, this is on back log. So whatever 'pull' captiva sales and marketing think they have with Google behind closed doors and out of the public gaze is frankly pony.


There will be no Eircodes on Google Maps this year.

Can you clarify if you have anything to back this up? Where are you getting your information?

Obviously it would give you more credibility if you clarified that, but it is notable that anti-Eircode begrudgers have made a habit of making strident claims of fact - the Rock of Cashel will have no Eircode; UCD will get only one Eircode; the Eircode database will be over 2GB; 50,000 homes were given no Eircode - these all turned out to be complete nonsense, but there was no retraction or correction, just moved on to make other unsubstantiated claims.

So - source?

gizmo555

BoatMad wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that Google is discussing licensing with Captiva.

listermint wrote: »

So whatever 'pull' captiva sales and marketing think they have with Google behind closed doors and out of the public gaze is frankly pony.

To avoid confusion, I should point out that Capita is the Eircode operator and Captiva is a very nice Chevrolet SUV

ukoda

Goes to show how reliable the claim of "eircode won't be on google maps this year" coming from a poster who doesn't even know the correct name of the postcode operator

clewbays

Power City have added Eircodes to all of their branch addresses and are requesting the Eircode for deliveries: http://www.powercity.ie/?par=40-01-WM5102W&pl=&brands=&accessories=1

They are an influential retailer as they are long-established in a very competitive market.

gizmo555

ukoda wrote: »

Goes to show how reliable the claim of "eircode won't be on google maps this year" coming from a poster who doesn't even know the correct name of the postcode operator

As the first use of "Captiva" was by the poster who says Google are in discussions to use Eircode, what does that show about the reliability of that claim?

BoatMad wrote: »

Leaving aside the fact that Google is discussing licensing with Captiva.

ukoda

gizmo555 wrote: »

As the first use of "Captiva" was by the poster who says Google are in discussions to use Eircode, what does that show about the reliability of that claim?

It shows don't believe anything you read on the Internet without a credible source.

There is evidence that Google ARE talking to capita about eircode. Google themselves confirmed it when asked at another unrelated conference last year, as have eircode themselves confirmed they are in talks with Google and other digital mapping companies

Alun

clewbays wrote: »

Power City have added Eircodes to all of their branch addresses and are requesting the Eircode for deliveries: http://www.powercity.ie/?par=40-01-WM5102W&pl=&brands=&accessories=1

They are an influential retailer as they are long-established in a very competitive market.

Already mentioned (by me) in post 11. I made my purchase in store and while there was a field on the form for it, he didn't ask for it, and when offered, it was declined on the basis that the machine was being delivered from their Bray branch, and I lived less than 1km away from the shop so wasn't needed. He did concede though that they do ask for it if the address is out of the way in a more rural location.

ukoda

For anyone who is in doubt. Here it is direct "from the horses mouth" of a sat nav company. So I've no reason to believe the same isn't true for Google maps. Have you?


https://twitter.com/garmin/status/630818330941763584

ukoda

Already in other thread but Garmin working on a solution for their sat navs

https://twitter.com/garmin/status/630818330941763584

BoatMad

ukoda wrote: »

Goes to show how reliable the claim of "eircode won't be on google maps this year" coming from a poster who doesn't even know the correct name of the postcode operator

I know who it is , I should perhaps pay more attention to how I spell it. None of this diminishes what I said , it's just a form of ad hominem attack

BoatMad

ukoda wrote: »

It shows don't believe anything you read on the Internet without a credible source.

There is evidence that Google ARE talking to capita about eircode. Google themselves confirmed it when asked at another unrelated conference last year, as have eircode themselves confirmed they are in talks with Google and other digital mapping companies

Given the two posts show both Google and Garmin are considering eircode , can you point to any error of substance in my original claim

Or would you just prefer to " play the man " rather then the ball when clearly you havent a leg to stand on

ukoda

BoatMad wrote: »

Given the two posts show both Google and Garmin are considering eircode , can you point to any error of substance in my original claim

Or would you just prefer to " play the man " rather then the ball when clearly you havent a leg to stand on

I've no issue with your posts at all? In fact I'm backing them up with evidence.

My "don't believe everything to read on the Internet" comment wasn't directed at yourself really, just a general comment that people can claim anything in an Internet forum, in this case you happen to be right and it's backed up by the posts I've made. There was no offence meant. I'm in full agreement with you. Eircode definitely will be on Google maps and sat navs

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

For anyone who is in doubt. Here it is direct "from the horses mouth" of a sat nav company. So I've no reason to believe the same isn't true for Google maps. Have you?


https://twitter.com/garmin/status/630818330941763584

"working in conjunction with" is a classic holding statement. Sure, they'd like to support it, but only if the cost is right, and the business case for Garmin will be different from google, given that google provide their services for free, whereas garmin can charge separately for additional functions like postcode support.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

"working in conjunction with" is a classic holding statement. Sure, they'd like to support it, but only if the cost is right, and the business case for Garmin will be different from google, given that google provide their services for free, whereas garmin can charge separately for additional functions like postcode support.

And I'm sure you'll be here when I post the statement "Garmin have introduced eircode" to tell me that sur "introduced" could mean anything.


And by the way, I've asked eircode (a few times) by email "what's your product for mapping" I was kinda stonewalled as I assume they want to get the big boys sorted before entertaining anyone else. But the feeling I'm getting, in fact it's more than a feeling, I was told, it won't be a per transaction licence model. One can only assume it will be a flat annual fee for the data and the likes of Google and Garmin would just absorb the cost as an operational expense, much like they did when they bought the geodirectory. There was never a mention of productS they always spoke using the terminology our "digital mapping product" is still being worked on

L1011

GerardKeating wrote: »

Weird, for some reason, I keep thinking they are part of An Post?

That's onedirect, recently renamed Post Insurance

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

And I'm sure you'll be here when I post the statement "Garmin have introduced eircode" to tell me that sur "introduced" could mean anything.

That's silly. If garmin release a product, then nobody is going to claim they haven't. It's just that you and another poster (the one who is calling people Eircode begrudgers) are calling for people to backup claims made about third party support for Eircode, and your last post said:

Eircode definitely will be on Google maps and sat navs

Not hopefully, or even subject to license discussions, which could actually come to nothing, but definitely.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

That's silly. If garmin release a product, then nobody is going to claim they haven't. It's just that you and another poster (the one who is calling people Eircode begrudgers) are calling for people to backup claims made about third party support for Eircode, and your last post said:

Not hopefully, or even subject to license discussions, which could actually come to nothing, but definitely.

It's an Internet forum, everything we say is our opinion unless we have a source of proof.

It's my opinion that it definitely will be on Google and sat navs, that opinion is based on the FACT that mapping / sat nav are in talks with eircode, something I can prove from an official source.

The fact they are talking means there's definitely a deal to be done

Sam Russell

Mod: @Plodder and @ukoda - Cut it out.

xband

Until it's on Google maps, Apple Maps, Garmin and others it will not see much use at all.

Google maps is key as so many websites and other applications hang off it for mapping.

plodder

xband wrote: »

Until it's on Google maps, Apple Maps, Garmin and others it will not see much use at all.

Google maps is key as so many websites and other applications hang off it for mapping.

I agree. It doesn't exist today. That is a fact. We can speculate all we like, but it doesn't exist today.

Garmin is probably an easy case for them. It is a closed system only used for satnav. google is more problematic given that maps is a complete platform for applications of its own, with its own APIs, commercial and free licenses etc.

petronius

What % of people use the eircode?
what % of post is processed using eircode?

I did not use an eircode on any Christmas card I sent, and christ accounts form maybe three quarters of the mail I send.

gizmo555

petronius wrote: »

what % of post is processed using eircode?

At the moment, 0%.

TheChizler

gizmo555 wrote: »

At the moment, 0%.

Link?

gizmo555

TheChizler wrote: »

Link?

Read the thread.

TheChizler

gizmo555 wrote: »

Read the thread.

I have from the start. There's been no official An Post source saying they're not used at all to process post.

GerardKeating

ukoda wrote: »

Already in other thread but Garmin working on a solution for their sat navs

https://twitter.com/garmin/status/630818330941763584

that post is from August, one would think it be ready by now ?

Bray Head

You would think that Google Maps should get a pretty good deal on licensing from Capita, for the first few years of course.

I can't think of anything that would spur eircode adoption faster than its availability on Google Maps. In the long run of course it's in Capita's interest that usage is as widespread as possible.