Dublin City Tri

Kurt_Godel

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Hold on there! That study you linked to doesn't support not taking a gel for an oly race.

What it says is that there is a fairly modest increased power output for the same RPE when using a CHO mouthwash vs a placebo mouthwash. Also, the report notes "it has been noted that the prior fasting period might be required for a postive effect of the mouth rinse", which is not really applicable to your average triathlete.

Also, none of these studies compared mouthwash to taking gels, only to placebo. Even further, all studies had excercise of approx 1hr duration "it is prudent to also point out that spitting out CHO/fluid replacement drink may... jeopardise performance during events lasting longer than 1 hr (i.e. an olympic distance race).

I think you need a better paper

Sorry you are right, I shouldn't have said rinse vs. ingestion (at least not for the study linked). It was the most relevant I could find for free. This may be better (probably have to pay to see methods etc).

I'd argue that 1hr bike TT's effect is similar to Oly distance effect.

Edit- and of course take 'em or don't take 'em, if You perceive an effect (real or placebo) it doesn't matter as long as it works.

MojoMaker

68 lost souls wrote: »

Well last Oly my leg went into spasm due to depletion of nutrition.

Unfortunately, or maybe not - depending on your perspective - but this is not nutrition related.

Muscular issues during short course racing is a symptom of a lack of specific fitness for the duration/distance/intensity, that's all. It's known as race fitness and a leading cause of injury in athletes who attempt to race at an intensity beyond which they have trained for. I think you can probably predict the solution fairly confidently

No amount of gels or powerbars are going to make up for a 12 or 24-month Olympic distance-specific intensity-balanced long-term training program.

If the fairy dust worked we'd all have shares in the company

68 lost souls

MojoMaker wrote: »

Unfortunately, or maybe not - depending on your perspective - but this is not nutrition related.

Muscular issues during short course racing is a symptom of a lack of specific fitness for the duration/distance/intensity, that's all. It's known as race fitness and a leading cause of injury in athletes who attempt to race at an intensity beyond which they have trained for. I think you can probably predict the solution fairly confidently

No amount of gels or powerbars are going to make up for a 12 or 24-month Olympic distance-specific intensity-balanced long-term training program.

If the fairy dust worked we'd all have shares in the company

I was going off what the physio was telling me at the finish area, they told suggested to me about the nutrition related.

I know nothing makes up for a 12-24 month training program and apart from a major set back last year which mainly effected my running I have been working on this for 3 years now.

Ok perhaps its my run that has let me down as I don't think it is there yet but I wouldnt have expected to suffer as badly with the work I have put in.

MojoMaker

That's my point 68. Lots of people put in significant work and then transfer to race situation and wonder why they come up short. The answer being that they are trying to race at an intensity/effort level beyond which their training has allowed for.

It's a real symptom of too much long slow training and confusing pure mileage for quality. You have to consistently train beyond race pace if you want to be able to race at race pace

I know a guy, capable swimmer, who puts in endless laps in the pool week-in week-out, quite slow in races and frustrated that his 10K a week in the pool doesn't seem to give him any forward progression. Training at a constant slow steady pace may work for a channel swimmer but not someone trying to do a fast 1500m. I asked him when was the last time he had done a 40x50 fast session and he looked at me as if I had 2 heads.

Also, as you're probably sick of hearing elsewhere, if you're not training on the bike to handle intense intervals and managing the effort of maintaining threshold and over-threshold rides then your run is going to suffer as you arrive in T2 shattered (even though you may actually feel ok) as race situations will push you into your red zone every time without you realising unless you have supreme discipline!

tunney

day walker101 wrote: »

Your opinion. Moving on

Ah bless, a creationist.

mirrormatrix wrote: »

I don't get how your diagram supports your argument. An oly race will take approx 2-3 hours depending on how quick you are. The chart you have highlighted recommends 30-60 g CHO per hour for this duration of excercise, so about 90-120 for oly distance or 3-4 PowerBar gels. This seems excessive to me, but nothing only water for an olympic distance? I wouldn't be doing it that's for sure!

Were you confusing SS with the oly race?

yes I thought that we were talking about the SS race.

day walker101

MojoMaker wrote: »

That's my point 68. Lots of people put in significant work and then transfer to race situation and wonder why they come up short. The answer being that they are trying to race at an intensity/effort level beyond which their training has allowed for.

It's a real symptom of too much long slow training and confusing pure mileage for quality. You have to consistently train beyond race pace if you want to be able to race at race pace

I know a guy, capable swimmer, who puts in endless laps in the pool week-in week-out, quite slow in races and frustrated that his 10K a week in the pool doesn't seem to give him any forward progression. Training at a constant slow steady pace may work for a channel swimmer but not someone trying to do a fast 1500m. I asked him when was the last time he had done a 40x50 fast session and he looked at me as if I had 2 heads.

Also, as you're probably sick of hearing elsewhere, if you're not training on the bike to handle intense intervals and managing the effort of maintaining threshold and over-threshold rides then your run is going to suffer as you arrive in T2 shattered (even though you may actually feel ok) as race situations will push you into your red zone every time without you realising unless you have supreme discipline!

Spot on.

peter kern

Also, as you're probably sick of hearing elsewhere, if you're not training on the bike to handle intense intervals and managing the effort of maintaining threshold and over-threshold rides then your run is going to suffer as you arrive in T2 shattered (even though you may actually feel ok) as race situations will push you into your red zone every time without you realising unless you have supreme discipline![/QUOTE]


that sounds fantastic and there is of course a lot of truth in it. the reality is that hardly ever will you see somebody training for an Ironman going slower for the oly in the same year. ( you would have to be close to be maxed out as an athlete for that )

anyway the thread would be better off focusing on the right intensity and also that different atheltes have different nutrition requirements but the majority of males on this forum they should be doing ok with 2 watery gels ( ie high 5 )or 1 more solid gel (power bar) and one bottle of energy drink ) for an oly i would use that as a base and then work modyfy it as required.( and it never hurts to have a spare gel ;-)

as a side not its a bit difficult to speak aobut 1 or 2 gels when different gels have differetn amounts of calories same of course for talking aobut 1 bottle of energy drink so people should look how much carbohydrates tey get from something rather than talking quantity.

boysinblack

Back to the race, thoughts on the first three home in the national champs?

1st Russell White
2nd Chris Mintern
3rd Con Doherty

68 lost souls

peter kern wrote: »

that sounds fantastic and there is of course a lot of truth in it. the reality is that hardly ever will you see somebody training for an Ironman going slower for the oly in the same year. ( you would have to be close to be maxed out as an athlete for that )

anyway the thread would be better off focusing on the right intensity and also that different atheltes have different nutrition requirements but the majority of males on this forum they should be doing ok with 2 watery gels ( ie high 5 )or 1 more solid gel (power bar) and one bottle of energy drink ) for an oly i would use that as a base and then work modyfy it as required.( and it never hurts to have a spare gel ;-)

as a side not its a bit difficult to speak aobut 1 or 2 gels when different gels have differetn amounts of calories same of course for talking aobut 1 bottle of energy drink so people should look how much carbohydrates tey get from something rather than talking quantity.

From this I can see my nutrition plan as about right 3 High 5 gels and half a 750ml bottle of zero mixed as one table was what I took last time.

As we said, back to the race. I reckon White, Mintern and Speers for the top 3 male

Stevo1983

For anyone interested I'll be selling fat free gels down the lane beside the expo tomorrow.

tunney

Stevo1983 wrote: »

For anyone interested I'll be selling fat free gels down the lane beside the expo tomorrow.

By their very definition are all gels not fat free?

cjt156

Peter's nutritional recommendations may well apply to someone at the very pointy end of things. I still maintain that anyone with a reasonable level of preparation shouldn't be relying on a boost of sugar to get them through about 3 hours of moderate intensity exercise.

Not condescending, just my opinion and approach to tri.

peter kern

cjt156 wrote: »

Peter's nutritional recommendations may well apply to someone at the very pointy end of things. I still maintain that anyone with a reasonable level of preparation shouldn't be relying on a boost of sugar to get them through about 3 hours of moderate intensity exercise.

Not condescending, just my opinion and approach to tri.

and i maintain the world is a disc ;-)

but if you race like the pulse guys that run 3 abreast in the 70.3 dublin having a laugh than i would agree with you but thats not racing

a pointy triathlete would usually be much lighter than a slower triathlete so while the pointy guy has a higher consume per kg the slower guy has more kg he needs to supply with energy especially on a course like dublin which is undulating.
so if a 90 kg triathlete really pushes the race he would need more energy than a 48 kg triathlete.

must people also think they burn more fat when they run slowly
the truth is the % of energy that comes from fat is higher when you go slow but you still burn more fat per minute when you go at higher intensities
as for the race realistically only white or doherty have the run to win and it depends how far Con his down
in the females i would say since Hays is the stongest runnner she will win.

cjt156

"Really pushes the race" as you say, is the key here. That's what I mean by someone at the pointy end.

I defer to your experience and knowledge ,Peter, but I doubt if the solution to a 90kg tri'athlete' doing a 3:15 olympic is "more gels"

Bambaata

Pissed to be missing this, was originally A goal for the year. Hope it goes well for all and hope its well supported! There should hopefully be a good crowd on course to se the Cat 1 and it should be a good watch to see how it pans out, will people work together or just not have it to work together to catch the stronger swimmers, will the strong swimmers, weak bikers be able to stick with the top guys!! Id be in watching only im off to salvage something and race Wexford 2-day instead. Id imagine draft legal racing for next year will depend a lot on how this goes so im hoping it goes well!

Tom__jnr2

boysinblack wrote: »

Back to the race, thoughts on the first three home in the national champs?

1st Russell White
2nd Chris Mintern
3rd Con Doherty

1. Chris
2. Russell
3. Con

I hope Aaron is in the mix. Do not see second pack catching the up on the bike leg.

BTH

Tom__jnr2 wrote: »

1. Chris
2. Russell
3. Con

I hope Aaron is in the mix. Do not see second pack catching the up on the bike leg.

Chris, Russell, Aichlinn, Brian Harris, Harry speers, will be in the first pack out of the water, I don't see Con making that group, and I think it will be big enough to keep him out of the picture. First three names there for you podium.

Mr Tango

Bambaata wrote: »

Pissed to be missing this, was originally A goal for the year. Hope it goes well for all and hope its well supported! There should hopefully be a good crowd on course to se the Cat 1 and it should be a good watch to see how it pans out, will people work together or just not have it to work together to catch the stronger swimmers, will the strong swimmers, weak bikers be able to stick with the top guys!! Id be in watching only im off to salvage something and race Wexford 2-day instead. Id imagine draft legal racing for next year will depend a lot on how this goes so im hoping it goes well!

I'm in on this. I reckon a 20 min swim will have me in a third pack out of the water. Will be interesting what happens next as I will be the slowest runner by a mile in the group (probably literally). Very willing to share work to ensure I don't get lapped!!!

Reckon it will be interesting how many get dq'd on the bike for getting lapped.

Anyone swimming 25 or slower will be giving up I'd guess 7 minutes to lead pack. Will be interesting ona 5 lap course at probably 10-11 mins per lap.

strewelpeter

cjt156 wrote: »

...

Not condescending, just my opinion and approach to tri.

cjt156 wrote: »

"Really pushes the race" as you say, is the key here. That's what I mean by someone at the pointy end.

I defer to your experience and knowledge ,Peter, but I doubt if the solution to a 90kg tri'athlete' doing a 3:15 olympic is "more gels"

:rolleyes:

Stevo1983

Just back from registration.
Impressed with the amount of stuff I got in the bag and the kit bag is top notch too.

Ranjo

Stevo1983 wrote: »

Just back from registration.
Impressed with the amount of stuff I got in the bag and the kit bag is top notch too.

Agreed. I ate the coconut protein bar on the way home!

I won't use the kit bag tomorrow, assuming loads will use it I'd be afraid of mistaken identity in the bag drop where someone (i.e. me) takes the wrong one home.

Question on the race belt. As it only secures the top of the number, does it flap about annoyingly when running/cycling? Haven't used one before.

Oryx

The number will flap, but not annoyingly.

Grassey

Scrunch the number into a ball, unroll then attach to belt.way less flapping about then.

S.R.F.C.

Hi guys, first ever triathlon, should probably have asked a few more questions when registering today but was in a bit of a rush. Really just wondering about the basics, how does it work with getting changed after the swim and where does one leave their gear and whatnot?

Also do we all have to be there for the transition, ie should you be there on the dot of 6:30 or is it ok getting there at 7ish? What happens during this period? I'm in the final wave at 10:05.

Thanks for any last minute help guys, any other additional advice would be welcomed!

Cheers

Stevo1983

S.R.F.C. wrote: »

Hi guys, first ever triathlon, should probably have asked a few more questions when registering today but was in a bit of a rush. Really just wondering about the basics, how does it work with getting changed after the swim and where does one leave their gear and whatnot?

Also do we all have to be there for the transition, ie should you be there on the dot of 6:30 or is it ok getting there at 7ish? What happens during this period? I'm in the final wave at 10:05.

Thanks for any last minute help guys, any other additional advice would be welcomed!

Cheers

Get down before half seven anyway. You don't want to miss transition.
You get changed at your bike in transition and leave it there.
Best of luck.

TheBazman

Yeah really impressed with the amount of stuff in the goody bag. Loads of volunteers there too.

Kurt_Godel

S.R.F.C. wrote: »

Hi guys, first ever triathlon, should probably have asked a few more questions when registering today but was in a bit of a rush. Really just wondering about the basics, how does it work with getting changed after the swim and where does one leave their gear and whatnot?

Also do we all have to be there for the transition, ie should you be there on the dot of 6:30 or is it ok getting there at 7ish? What happens during this period? I'm in the final wave at 10:05.

Thanks for any last minute help guys, any other additional advice would be welcomed!

Cheers

Transition closes at 7:30 so you'll want to be out of there by then. 7 is fine to head in.

You rack your bike, leave your helmet and running shoes there, and head for the swim. Wear a trisuit throughout the whole race, that way you just strip off and dump your wetsuit at transition the first time you are there (T1), put on helmet and exit with bike. Come back into transition after bike route a second time (T2), rack bike, take off helmet, put on run shoes and do run course to finish line. Then collect your wetsuit, bike, helmet, afterwards when they open transition again,

Vorsprung

Any tips for waterproofing your gear at transition? Wary of anything too big,don't have a fancy tri bag!

Kurt_Godel

Jesus, that was wet! Probably the worst conditions I've done a tri in yet. I got my finish time texted to me and my jaw dropped, I would have expected to be nearly 10 mins quicker, but speaking to a good few afterwards that seemed to be the order of the day. A slower time and cautious cornering is preferable to a DNF and cracked bones/carbon! Hope everyone who crashed is ok.

Extremely well organised race again, fair play to Pirhana who had to battle the elements. Wouldn't have fancied the marshall's job out there in the rain for hours, but they were all in good spirits and full of encouragement.

That bowl of chilli afterwards was the best- much needed heat and spices!

Stevo1983

Tough day for me.
I lifted my bike into the car this morning and got a back spasm. A few pain killers and a good dose of deep heat and it eased up.
Swim went well for me, water was lovely. Cycle although slow due to conditions but was enjoyable. I made my time up on the climbs.
The run wasn't great for me though. As soon as I got off the bike my back flared up again making the run a forgettable one.

Great event, well organised and plenty of encouragement from marshals along the way.
I'll be back next year.
As for the bowl of chilli, I'd have gladly buried my head in the pot