Cross Country Training Thread

Myles Splitz

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Just a general question for the cross country crew..

If you have a goal race in the season, for argument's sake, lets say the National Novice in 4 weeks time , how would you prepare so that you are in optimal shape come race day?

I'm looking at keeping some reasonably high mileage for 5-6 weeks (50-60 miles for me), while doing the track session and a hill session each week. Then for the last 2-3 weeks, I'll back off the mileage a bit, hit the sessions a little bit harder, get a sharpener race in one week out and then a very handy week leading up to the race itself.

Do you think this is a reasonable approach? How would you approach a goal race over the XC season?

Sounds sensible to me.

Personally I have been targeting Intermediates as goal race so last week dropped the recoveries in sessions making them more race specific atleast once a week at race pace and the next few weeks gonna be as follows

This week 2 endurance sessions + Long run
Next Week 1 Endurance session, 1 tune up session, InterClubs
Following week 1 Endurance Session + Intermediates

Effectively the Endurance Sessions will aim to simulate race effort or as close as possible

Last week 8x1k @ RP off 90 (down from 2.30)
This week 5x1 mile @ RP off 90 (down from 2.30)
Next week 1,2,3,2,1 km @ RP off 1 min per km

Mileage will be in around what I have been hitting all winter (60-65) but pace will be off feel completely so will probably scale back a bit

Sacksian

Your outline is fairly much what I'm intending, although I'm probably backing off mileage now - mostly because I'm a bit knackered and starting to miss faster sessions at this stage. I'm not sure I'll be able to find a race for the 29th (can't race on the 28th). For the last week, I'll do very little.

Having said that, I would still strongly encourage you and your teammates to double your mileage every week between now and the novice, try to keep your easy run pace faster than 6 minute/miles and run the first rep of every session at least twice as fast as the last one.

Myles Splitz

Sacksian wrote: »

Your outline is fairly much what I'm intending, although I'm probably backing off mileage now - mostly because I'm a bit knackered and starting to miss faster sessions at this stage. I'm not sure I'll be able to find a race for the 29th (can't race on the 28th). For the last week, I'll do very little.

Intermediates is 29th?

KielyUnusual

Sacksian wrote: »

Your outline is fairly much what I'm intending, although I'm probably backing off mileage now - mostly because I'm a bit knackered and starting to miss faster sessions at this stage. I'm not sure I'll be able to find a race for the 29th (can't race on the 28th). For the last week, I'll do very little.

Having said that, I would still strongly encourage you and your teammates to double your mileage every week between now and the novice, try to keep your easy run pace faster than 6 minute/miles and run the first rep of every session at least twice as fast as the last one.

Have you been spying on us?

We actually have a great team for the Novice. Going to be a big challenge to get among the 4 scorers so that's the main goal and if I make that then I'll do well.

Same as yourself, I'm finding myself quite tired with the high mileage and that's why I came here looking for some validation. Better now than 3 weeks time anyway.

Yea, Intermediates on the 29th. Should be a good race sharpener ahead of the novice.

Sacksian

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Intermediates is 29th?

I just realised that after reading your mail. I had already mentally passed on it and I really, really don't want to run a 5 mile race, but I do want to race before the novice. We'll see!

Sacksian

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Have you been spying on us?

We actually have a great team for the Novice. Going to be a big challenge to get among the 4 scorers so that's the main goal and if I make that then I'll do well.

Same as yourself, I'm finding myself quite tired with the high mileage and that's why I came here looking for some validation. Better now than 3 weeks time anyway.

Yea, Intermediates on the 29th. Should be a good race sharpener ahead of the novice.

You (collectively and individually!) should have a decent chance of a medal. Top 40 could get you a Dublin medal too? I was hoping to finish around 20 places up on last year, and nudge the Top 50, but even 5-10 would represent reasonable progress, given the way this year went.

I think we've lost all four of our scorers from last year (having lost the four scorers from the previous year due eligibility) due to eligibility and injury, and there are still about 6-7 ahead of me. It's a strong squad.

I'm not sure how much use the Intermediates would be for me - 6k is about the edge of my effective racing ability!

thewolf_ie

Novice is my main target too. I was feeling a bit worse for ware and dropped all my usual sessions last week. Feeling much better this week but have been still backing off while I recover. It's the sessions and races that do it plus running your easy runs too quick don't help! I find my slowest runs the hardest and tend to run them on grass which helps the legs too.

Sacksian

The countdown to the Novice has begun in earnest for me, with only 1.5 sessions left before the race and 8 days of niggle management.

In terms of race strategy, I've still to decide whether to just throw caution to the wind, or keep it sensible - I still have the idea of a qualitative difference between 5k and 6k strategy; that 20 minutes is just that bit too long for me to go out hard and hang on. So, I really don't envy anyone doing the Dublin Intermediate race at the weekend.

I was looking at the novice men’s race results for the past two years, for any of you who fancy your chances! It looks like dipping under 100 will get you a medal and a strong single digit top scorer and 3 top 30 scorers gives you a chance of gold. Both Leevale and Donore will have to replace their entire team of scorers this year, so it’ll be interesting to see which clubs step up, whether it’s a super junior group or a set of “maturer” runners yet to lose their novice.

I only know the Dublin teams and a couple of Leinster ones: DSD haven’t featured in the last two years but, if they get a team out, they have some very talented young runners. Crusaders have a large group of guys that are still eligible. Raheny have a team capable of winning a medal if they get them all out on the day and similar with Donore. I’m not sure what sort of squad Dunboyne will have but, if they have the same 4 as last year, they could be a dark horse. Rathfarnham and Liffey Valley might have lost some good runners, due to eligibility in recent years - I could be wrong about that.

The standard can fluctuate from year to year depending on entries but here's hoping the Inter Clubs at the weekend might have inspired a few more to have a go. There might be more Munster clubs targeting it too, because of location.

National Novice 2014

1st Leevale (82) - 1,13,28,40
2nd Donore (84) - 12,22,23,27
3rd St Abbans (118) - 8,14,17,79
4th Ennis Track (138) - 5,15,55,63
5th Crusaders (157) - 32,38,43,44
6th Dunboyne (159) - 9,21,47,82
7th Liffey Valley (177) - 16,33,59,69
8th Raheny Shamrock (215) - 26,52,62,75

National Novice 2013

1st Donore (51) - 7,12,14,18
2nd Rathfarnham (124) - 15,23,40,46
3rd Leevale (139) - 5,25,29,80
4th St. Finbarrs (151) - 3,36,55,57
5th Crusaders (151) - 10,11,54,76
6th Foyle Valley(153) - 26,30,38,59
7th Clonmel (211) - 1,17,32,161
8th Raheny Shamrock (228) - 24,35,70,99

Myles Splitz

No harm in pointing out but if anyone is interested but doesn't have a team there is also a county team competition where the first 4 from each county score.

Seem to recall a former boardsie here picking up a medal last year this way despite his club only getting 6th.

As mentioned DSD should be greatly improved this year as they had top 2 in Dublins as well as some high scoring u 23s elsewhere in other team comp's this year.

Leevale should be decimated between Inter Clubs and last years Novice win there are alot ruled out of eligibility mind you they still had enough to win Munsters this year

Attached and below are the results for all provincial Novice Championship (bar Connaught as I couldn't find them)

http://www.munsterathletics.com/results/2015/Cross%20Country/Munster%20Even%20Age%20&%20Novice%20XC%202015.pdf

http://www.dublinathletics.com/attachments/article/397/Novice%202015%20Results.pdf

http://athleticsleinster.org/images/results/Individual%20Results%20Day%202%20Moyvalley%2025.10.15.pdf


On paper strongest would look to be Malachy's however I reckon many of the northern teams won't travel.

RayCun

Anyone know anything about the course?
(juveniles competing that morning)

Myles Splitz

RayCun wrote: »

Anyone know anything about the course?
(juveniles competing that morning)

Haven't ran it since I was a juvenile myself but from memory.

Fairly flat, one small drag out the back of the course with some narrow parts along the course, well sheltered if there is wind. Drainage used to be hit and miss back in the day so can be prepared for a bit of mud

Sacksian

Course preview from youngrun earlier in the thread:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=97036286&postcount=53

And I've heard similar from our coaches - fairly fast, flat but gets chopped up, although I'm not sure if it's Cow Park territory. Should be okay for juveniles though.

Myles Splitz

Might be no harm to put together a little list of races still on the calendar for any post marathoners looking to dip there toe

29-11|Dublin Intermediates
29-11| Various County Seniors
29-11| Munster Masters
6-12| National Novice
12-12| BHAA Marlay Park 5k
3-1| Dublin Masters
9-1| National Short Course
10-1| Munsters Intermeidate
17-1| Leinster Senior
24-1| National Intermediates + Masters
30-1| Ulster Masters

Timmaay

Myles Splitz wrote: »

No harm in pointing out but if anyone is interested but doesn't have a team there is also a county team competition where the first 4 from each county score.

Seem to recall a former boardsie here picking up a medal last year this way despite his club only getting 6th.

As mentioned DSD should be greatly improved this year as they had top 2 in Dublins as well as some high scoring u 23s elsewhere in other team comp's this year.

Leevale should be decimated between Inter Clubs and last years Novice win there are alot ruled out of eligibility mind you they still had enough to win Munsters this year

Attached and below are the results for all provincial Novice Championship (bar Connaught as I couldn't find them)

http://www.munsterathletics.com/results/2015/Cross%20Country/Munster%20Even%20Age%20&%20Novice%20XC%202015.pdf

http://www.dublinathletics.com/attachments/article/397/Novice%202015%20Results.pdf

http://athleticsleinster.org/images/results/Individual%20Results%20Day%202%20Moyvalley%2025.10.15.pdf


On paper strongest would look to be Malachy's however I reckon many of the northern teams won't travel.

County team not 6 to score?

Myles Splitz

Timmaay wrote: »

County team not 6 to score?

Sorry right you are 6 per county

youngrun

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Haven't ran it since I was a juvenile myself but from memory.

Fairly flat, one small drag out the back of the course with some narrow parts along the course, well sheltered if there is wind. Drainage used to be hit and miss back in the day so can be prepared for a bit of mud

yes its a quick course. 2k lap I reckon it was in 2007. fairly straight line running and it was pretty good underfoot. Where do the years go. I remember a 4 hr drive down , and first time running the novice it was a crazy start got left for dust. Finished mid pack though .

28064212

Are XC spikes a necessity? Haven't done an XC race before, but have the Dublin Intermediates and National Novices in the next two Sundays. Not entirely convinced I'll stick with it, so don't want to buy a pair of runners I'll only use twice. Will I be at a huge disadvantage running in road runners?

Ceepo

28064212 wrote: »

Are XC spikes a necessity? Haven't done an XC race before, but have the Dublin Intermediates and National Novices in the next two Sundays. Not entirely convinced I'll stick with it, so don't want to buy a pair of runners I'll only use twice. Will I be at a huge disadvantage running in road runners?

No you could run in "the barefeet".

Honestly I would prefer to run in barefeet than run in runners if I didn't have spikes.

pconn062

28064212 wrote: »

Are XC spikes a necessity? Haven't done an XC race before, but have the Dublin Intermediates and National Novices in the next two Sundays. Not entirely convinced I'll stick with it, so don't want to buy a pair of runners I'll only use twice. Will I be at a huge disadvantage running in road runners?

In all honesty, after all that rain spikes would probably help a lot. If the ground is mucky or slippy then runners can be a bit of a pain. As Ceepo says bare feet would even be better, however I wouldn't try that either without practice as either it will lead to injury or hypothermia!

youngrun

28064212 wrote: »

Are XC spikes a necessity? Haven't done an XC race before, but have the Dublin Intermediates and National Novices in the next two Sundays. Not entirely convinced I'll stick with it, so don't want to buy a pair of runners I'll only use twice. Will I be at a huge disadvantage running in road runners?

I would get them, it wil be slippy and they are fairly cheap vs runners. You will get hooked on the country anyway and end up running the Short course, Masters and Inters on the same day and Intercounties ...:D

Ceepo

pconn062 wrote: »

In all honesty, after all that rain spikes would probably help a lot. If the ground is mucky or slippy then runners can be a bit of a pain. As Ceepo says bare feet would even be better, however I wouldn't try that either without practice as either it will lead to injury or hypothermia!

Never heard of anyone getting hypothermia from running barefoot. There is a chance of getting spiked alright but very rare most injury come from cuts from stones etc to the sole of the feet. That said most xc course now are more like park runs than xc.

Some of my thoughts on spikes for xc. Feel free to agree or disagree
Do not buy xc specific spikes. Usually they are more cushioned (you do not need a lot of cushioning as the ground in most cases is soft) with more material around the ankle for support. When this gets wet it gets heavy this is weight you don't need to be carrying around.
You don't need a lot of support either as the more ankle flexibility you have the better. This will help when you have to change direction on tight bends and also if the ground is uneven the more flexible in the foot the less it resonates up through the body.
9mm spikes at a minimum if not 12mm. I wouldn't even rule out 15mm depending on the course. Dungarvan definitely 9mm.

pconn062

Ceepo wrote: »

Never heard of anyone getting hypothermia from running barefoot. There is a chance of getting spiked alright but very rare most injury come from cuts from stones etc to the sole of the feet. That said most xc course now are more like park runs than xc.

Some of my thoughts on spikes for xc. Feel free to agree or disagree
Do not buy xc specific spikes. Usually they are more cushioned (you do not need a lot of cushioning as the ground in most cases is soft) with more material around the ankle for support. When this gets wet it gets heavy this is weight you don't need to be carrying around.
You don't need a lot of support either as the more ankle flexibility you have the better. This will help when you have to change direction on tight bends and also if the ground is uneven the more flexible in the foot the less it resonates up through the body.
9mm spikes at a minimum if not 12mm. I wouldn't even rule out 15mm depending on the course. Dungarvan definitely 9mm.

The hypothermia thing was a joke. I just wouldn't be jumping into running your first cross country race barefoot, especially if you never tried it before. I always ran XC barefoot as a child but after one race where I split the whole bottom of my foot open after standing on a sharp rock, it was spikes all the way.

Agree with most of what you say about spikes, again for someone who has never wore spikes before I would ideally like to try them out a few times beforehand as it can be quite the shock to your calves and achilles tendon, if you spend all your time in big cushioned shoes.

Timmaay

Borrow a pair of them either.

KielyUnusual

28064212 wrote: »

Are XC spikes a necessity? Haven't done an XC race before, but have the Dublin Intermediates and National Novices in the next two Sundays. Not entirely convinced I'll stick with it, so don't want to buy a pair of runners I'll only use twice. Will I be at a huge disadvantage running in road runners?

They're an advantage definitely. I've seen lots of guys running barefoot and slipping in races. In fact, in this very same race last year there was such an incident. There are a good couple of 180 degree turns on the course. The same guy, even when he wasn't slipping, had to slow down to almost a halt at each of these bends. Made my job easier anyway . Not sure if normal runners would be too much better either.

Borrowing a pair is also an option as Timmaay says. I'm sure if you ask some of the guys at your club, there will be a few spare pairs lopping about that might be your size.

Myles Splitz

There anyone else down for tomorrow bar 28064212, Kiely and myself?

KielyUnusual

Myles Splitz wrote: »

No harm in pointing out but if anyone is interested but doesn't have a team there is also a county team competition where the first 4 from each county score.

Seem to recall a former boardsie here picking up a medal last year this way despite his club only getting 6th.

As mentioned DSD should be greatly improved this year as they had top 2 in Dublins as well as some high scoring u 23s elsewhere in other team comp's this year.

Leevale should be decimated between Inter Clubs and last years Novice win there are alot ruled out of eligibility mind you they still had enough to win Munsters this year

Attached and below are the results for all provincial Novice Championship (bar Connaught as I couldn't find them)

http://www.munsterathletics.com/results/2015/Cross%20Country/Munster%20Even%20Age%20&%20Novice%20XC%202015.pdf

http://www.dublinathletics.com/attachments/article/397/Novice%202015%20Results.pdf

http://athleticsleinster.org/images/results/Individual%20Results%20Day%202%20Moyvalley%2025.10.15.pdf


On paper strongest would look to be Malachy's however I reckon many of the northern teams won't travel.

I think tomorrow's race should give us a good idea where we stand for the National Novice. Some of our strong runners are returning although there will be a couple more potential scorers again for the novice.

Got to fancy DSD's chances with the top 2 from the Dublin Novice running. Leeval always in with a shout given the sheer depth of their squad. From the Leinster Novice, Cellbridge also had a lot of runners up the top of the field so might have a good chance.

As ever with cross country, you never know who will show up and anything can happen in a day. Would absolutely love to win a team gold in the National Novice though and I think we're in with a good shout

RayCun

I'm in, god knows why :pac:

Ceepo

KielyUnusual wrote: »

As ever with cross country, you never know who will show up and anything can happen in a day. Would absolutely love to win a team gold in the National Novice though and I think we're in with a good shout

^^^ This, important to remember that there will be more eligible to run the National novice than were eligible to run the provincial novice. There would be a good number of athletes knocked out of provincial champs over the years.

A medal of any colour is a nice gold even nicer but let's not get greedy

thewolf_ie

I'm in it to win it!

Timmaay

Should have a tidy enough team here at the novice also!