Cross Country Training Thread

pconn062

Good luck all tomorrow, I would give my right arm to be running with you. May the wind be at your back.

KielyUnusual

From the Waterford AC facebook

Course ready but it will be pure muck all the way

Love it

Best of luck to everyone heading down.

Ceepo

KielyUnusual wrote: »

From the Waterford AC facebook



Love it

Best of luck to everyone heading down.

+1 to this, even if i have feck all running done in the last few months,
Hey Kiely we might have a place on the Tipp team how are you fixed?
Done hold your breath though as i hear we might have the bronze medal winner for DCM running with us,

KielyUnusual

Ceepo wrote: »

+1 to this, even if i have feck all running done in the last few months,
Hey Kiely we might have a place on the Tipp team how are you fixed?
Done hold your breath though as i hear we might have the bronze medal winner for DCM running with us,

Would love to run for Tipp but as it is I'm running for bleedin Dublin. They just pick people from the Dublin Novice mainly. Today I found out I'm going to have to wear the singlet too. Very conflicted

Ceepo

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Would love to run for Tipp but as it is I'm running for bleedin Dublin. They just pick people from the Dublin Novice mainly. Today I found out I'm going to have to wear the singlet too. Very conflicted

So you will be the one in the Dublin singlet running with there head bowed in shame, lol.
Dont forget to introduce yourself, i will be the old fellow with the receeding no hair line running for tipp waaayyy back the field, probably with a Ballynonty AC jacket on before hand

RayCun

About to hit the road (if there still is a road)
Good luck everyone, we'll have the kids churn it up nicely for you!

Firedance

Good luck everyone & enjoy!!!

Timmaay

Firedance wrote: »

Good luck everyone & enjoy!!!

Enjoy is usually wayyy too generous a word for xc ha, but I can actually say I enjoyed today, prb one of my best xc races ever. Fitness definitely there, only minor complaint would be mentally still leaving that bit on the track, 5 seconds in a stacked field like today can mean 5places lost.

youngrun

Timmaay wrote: »

Enjoy is usually wayyy too generous a word for xc ha, but I can actually say I enjoyed today, prb one of my best xc races ever. Fitness definitely there, only minor complaint would be mentally still leaving that bit on the track, 5 seconds in a stacked field like today can mean 5places lost.

That's a serious run by you in that field well done !

Great course very hard work . Ran hard as I could but don't have the pace for this at all but enjoyed it . Great to see a Galway guy in top three .
What happened crusaders women team big preview on web and no runners ??!

Ceepo

Well done to all today. Great race and well organised. Sorry lads but at a bit if of a disadvantage as I don't know all your real names. But we'll done all the same

Krusty_Clown

I enjoyed it, up until the gun went... after that... abhorred every moment. As someone pointed out on the way back home, good cross-country runners make good road runners, but good road runners don't necessarily make good cross-country runners. Super run by Timmaay, that solidified a decent recent for our club. For me? Back to where I belong on the roads!

Timmaay

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I enjoyed it, up until the gun went... after that... abhorred every moment. As someone pointed out on the way back home, good cross-country runners make good road runners, but good road runners don't necessarily make good cross-country runners. Super run by Timmaay, that solidified a decent recent for our club. For me? Back to where I belong on the roads!

Your being harsh on yourself there, the only difference between you and me, while you were pounding out the miles on the roads marathon training the last few months I've been in Avondale, Djouce woods, even just the grass infield on the Greystones track.

Sacksian

My original goal at the start of the xc season - and my target for the year - was Top 50 at the novice, and having missed most of March-August through injury, I had to tailor my training specifically to give myself a chance of achieving it.

I had a few doubts about the target given how the races along the way had gone but, thankfully, it all came together yesterday and the race strategy for the day paid off. So, despite (inevitably) feeling like I left another couple of places out there, I’m very happy with how it went.

The hardest spot was the final 600 or so metres where, for some reason, I thought we’d be finishing much earlier and was feeling a little spent. So, I tried to take the shortest route rather than the driest route through the section at the back and got a bit stuck in the mud.

Krusty_Clown

Sacksian wrote: »

My original goal at the start of the xc season - and my target for the year - was Top 50 at the novice, and having missed most of March-August through injury, I had to tailor my training specifically to give myself a chance of achieving it.

Did you manage a top 50 finish? A top 50 finish in this race seemed like a pretty decent achievement.

Here's a great playback of the race from Strava, for those 17 runners who have uploaded their runs. It's interesting to see that those who did better, went our very hard, and slowed less than others. It would seem to make a lot of sense to go out very hard for the first 1-2 miles and take advantage of the firmer ground, before it is completely churned up. Does that hold true for longer distances (e.g. 10k xc)?

KielyUnusual

That makes for harrowing viewing KC. Going out hard didn't work for everyone yesterday. Personally, I had a complete nightmare of a race. Legs were just gone after a mile or so and I was just bringing it home from there on in. Not sure if it was the conditions didn't suit me or there was just something slightly lacking in the pre race prep but after some good training and a handy week last week, it just didn't come together on the day.

Was great to see Timmaay I think leading out or at least very close to it for the first 200m in what was very hectic start. Held on very well too to finish right up there at the top of the field. Great performances by Sacksian and Wolfie too.

With regard to race tactics, I think you'll always see that the first mile is by far the quickest for most runners. I guess its just the nature of cross country that you want to get in to roughly the position where you think you'll finish early on and hang in there. For the Novice, its best not to hit the first corner in the pack too because it slows down a lot and gets messy. With the course yesterday, the best racing line was generally about a foot wide around the course so it made overtaking difficult (mainly judging this by the 70 or 80 people that had to go by me ) and getting a good position early on all the more important.

Sacksian

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Did you manage a top 50 finish? A top 50 finish in this race seemed like a pretty decent achievement.

Here's a great playback of the race from Strava, for those 17 runners who have uploaded their runs. It's interesting to see that those who did better, went our very hard, and slowed less than others. It would seem to make a lot of sense to go out very hard for the first 1-2 miles and take advantage of the firmer ground, before it is completely churned up. Does that hold true for longer distances (e.g. 10k xc)?

Yes! I finished 44th (although there's no 41st runner listed, so I could claim 43rd!).

I'm fairly sure my strategy was even-paced throughout. I did start fairly hard, for the first 400m or so, just to get a bit of space, but then settled and let people go past me before working my way back through the field.

If it was firmer ground, I would have gone out harder for longer but in that type of mud (tbh, I doubt it was particularly firm for the leaders either!), it just requires so much effort to maintain a decent running form that, personally, I would have struggled trying to hold on if I'd gone out harder for longer.

Look at John Coghlan's run in the Inter Clubs (which was 10k). I think he was in the teens or even possibly 20s on the first lap and worked his way through to finish 2nd. Different tactics work for different people but I think the limit to which you can outrun fitness or ability is smaller than most believe. Obviously, you have to figure out what works best for you personally.

For me, lots of practise of speed endurance over the appropriate distance or terrain really helps the most.

Sacksian

KielyUnusual wrote: »

That makes for harrowing viewing KC. Going out hard didn't work for everyone yesterday. Personally, I had a complete nightmare of a race. Legs were just gone after a mile or so and I was just bringing it home from there on in. Not sure if it was the conditions didn't suit me or there was just something slightly lacking in the pre race prep but after some good training and a handy week last week, it just didn't come together on the day.

I'm sure you all discussed it afterwards, but I think the Dublin Intermediate scheduling really fecked your team up - the only two guys from that race who seemed to have recovered were your teammate who finished 3rd last week and the winner from CSH (who has had a brilliant season).

Krusty_Clown

Sacksian wrote: »

For me, lots of practise of speed endurance over the appropriate distance or terrain really helps the most.

Yeah, consistent with Timmay's comments. If one isn't training specifically for cross-country, then in the national-level competitions, one is really just there to make up the numbers and try and do something for the team. You can't magic good results without doing the training.

kielyunusual wrote:

Personally, I had a complete nightmare of a race

Figured as much. You had no place being back near where I was in the field. You're on the back of some very solid results over the last couple of weeks, so it's difficult to pull out great races every week consistently. There has to be the occasional doozy. Perhaps if you'd skipped the intermediate - but then maybe the individual/team result in the Dublin inters was worth the cost in the national novice?

Timmaay

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Did you manage a top 50 finish? A top 50 finish in this race seemed like a pretty decent achievement.

Here's a great playback of the race from Strava, for those 17 runners who have uploaded their runs. It's interesting to see that those who did better, went our very hard, and slowed less than others. It would seem to make a lot of sense to go out very hard for the first 1-2 miles and take advantage of the firmer ground, before it is completely churned up. Does that hold true for longer distances (e.g. 10k xc)?

1stly, KU, that 100% was not me at the front early on haha, I got a decent start 1st 400m, but was still well down the field, I was pushing but far from hammering it for the 1st lap, I'd say towards the end of the 1st lap I was no higher than 80th, but kept on picking off the lads (most either by going into the bushes either mad narrow or totally wide 2bh ha), some coaching shouting at the athletes around me let me know that I was in the top 50 during the 2nd lap, I kept on picking off the lads 3rd lap (but equally so other lads came rocketing by me, 2bh long time since I've seen such pure carnage during a race in terms of Ill timed do or dies lol), I came in 32nd, but looking at results I'm still annoyed that I didn't mentality dig that small bit more, 10seconds all that separated me to 22nd place ugh.

So KC, no I don't think it's a huge advantage to go out at suicidal pace for the 1st mile or so, I still think the best plan is to stick to your normal pace, but use every single inch of the track.

Timmaay

Two other random observations during the race ha, anyone else want to punch that f*&king idiot of a coach who was roaring his head off in the field out the back 1st two laps ha? And anyone else get stuck in the pile up into the cone just coming outa that field 1st lap ha?, what happened there? Was about 20lads in front of me, all I know is I had to sidestep very quickly to avoid being part if it ha.

KielyUnusual

Timmaay wrote: »

Two other random observations during the race ha, anyone else want to punch that f*&king idiot of a coach who was roaring his head off in the field out the back 1st two laps ha? And anyone else get stuck in the pile up into the cone just coming outa that field 1st lap ha?, what happened there? Was about 20lads in front of me, all I know is I had to sidestep very quickly to avoid being part if it ha.

Christ, he was an annoying fecker wasn't he? I think pretty much everyone was giving out about him on the bus back.

..and yes that was a ridiculously placed cone at one of the first bends. One of my clubmates went mental because he nearly went over it. Don't know what they were thinking. It was chaotic enough without sticking a cone in the middle of the course right at a bend.

Sacksian

Timmaay wrote: »

Two other random observations during the race ha, anyone else want to punch that f*&king idiot of a coach who was roaring his head off in the field out the back 1st two laps ha? And anyone else get stuck in the pile up into the cone just coming outa that field 1st lap ha?, what happened there? Was about 20lads in front of me, all I know is I had to sidestep very quickly to avoid being part if it ha.

There was some guy in the back field who kept on shouting the same thing to the runners from his club every lap. I was wondering how helpful it was during the race, but I can't remember exactly what he was shouting.

Here's a decent amount of video from the race:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=986360501420130

KielyUnusual

Timmaay wrote: »

1stly, KU, that 100% was not me at the front early on haha, I got a decent start 1st 400m, but was still well down the field, I was pushing but far from hammering it for the 1st lap, I'd say towards the end of the 1st lap I was no higher than 80th, but kept on picking off the lads (most either by going into the bushes either mad narrow or totally wide 2bh ha), some coaching shouting at the athletes around me let me know that I was in the top 50 during the 2nd lap, I kept on picking off the lads 3rd lap (but equally so other lads came rocketing by me, 2bh long time since I've seen such pure carnage during a race in terms of Ill timed do or dies lol), I came in 32nd, but looking at results I'm still annoyed that I didn't mentality dig that small bit more, 10seconds all that separated me to 22nd place ugh.

So KC, no I don't think it's a huge advantage to go out at suicidal pace for the 1st mile or so, I still think the best plan is to stick to your normal pace, but use every single inch of the track.

I was sure it was you at the time but must have been your illustrious clubmate. I was very imoressed when I thought that you had gone out at that mental pace and held on so well but I'm even more impressed now with your tactical resolve.

Firedance

Sacksian wrote: »

There was some guy in the back field who kept on shouting the same thing to the runners from his club every lap. I was wondering how helpful it was during the race, but I can't remember exactly what he was shouting.

Here's a decent amount of video from the race:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=986360501420130

I don't suppose anyone knows if there's a women's race vid? our ladies did fantastically well (as did the lads), be great to see the action.

Mulberry

Timmaay wrote: »

Two other random observations during the race ha, anyone else want to punch that f*&king idiot of a coach who was roaring his head off in the field out the back 1st two laps ha? And anyone else get stuck in the pile up into the cone just coming outa that field 1st lap ha?, what happened there? Was about 20lads in front of me, all I know is I had to sidestep very quickly to avoid being part if it ha.

YES! That coach was driving me mad! I'm all for a good shout out and it usually really helps me but that was just ridiculous.

I don't know what it was about what he was saying but he managed to infer that the runners were doing badly or weren't trying. His runners AND the rest of us! Horrendous.

Yeah there was a cone in my race heading into the back field, I had to side step it and it almost took my clubmate down.

KielyUnusual

Sacksian wrote: »

Yes! I finished 44th (although there's no 41st runner listed, so I could claim 43rd!).

I'm fairly sure my strategy was even-paced throughout. I did start fairly hard, for the first 400m or so, just to get a bit of space, but then settled and let people go past me before working my way back through the field.

If it was firmer ground, I would have gone out harder for longer but in that type of mud (tbh, I doubt it was particularly firm for the leaders either!), it just requires so much effort to maintain a decent running form that, personally, I would have struggled trying to hold on if I'd gone out harder for longer.

Look at John Coghlan's run in the Inter Clubs (which was 10k). I think he was in the teens or even possibly 20s on the first lap and worked his way through to finish 2nd. Different tactics work for different people but I think the limit to which you can outrun fitness or ability is smaller than most believe. Obviously, you have to figure out what works best for you personally.

For me, lots of practise of speed endurance over the appropriate distance or terrain really helps the most.

Congrats on the national bronze by the way. Great stuff!

Sacksian

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Congrats on the national bronze by the way. Great stuff!

Cheers - it really salvaged the year for me!

You've had a brilliant 2015, and yesterday is a small blot on an otherwise stellar year, from the 2 novices and the dublin inters, as well as the track season and even spring xc season. I'm sure you're excited about 2016 already!

Just make sure you don't pick up a county gold at the national intermediates (unless you win a club gold too) - you've probably unfinished business with the novice.

Sacksian

Firedance wrote: »

I don't suppose anyone knows if there's a women's race vid? our ladies did fantastically well (as did the lads), be great to see the action.

Hi Firedance, I picked that video up on twitter from Kieran Carlin @kcathletics - he hasn't posted an equivalent women's race video that I've seen, but I'll post one if I find it.

youngrun

Athletics Ireland should film/video these races if possible they really are fantastic to watch . fair play to kieran carlin he gets a lot of film at most nationals .

Anyone else run the 2007 version, i was 2.5 mins slower in 2015 !, it seemed a bit longer, id put a minute of my time loss down to lack of fitness+a bit heavier ground worth a bit also

Lougheee

AAI are missing a trick by not hiring a videographer to cover their championship events. Triathlon Ireland do it. All athletes really appreciate a good finish line video so kudos to Kieran for getting the phone out at the line. If BHAA can do it, why can't AAI?

That playback on strava is gas. I didn't know it had that feature. My splits were 5:05, 5:20, 5:34, and 5:32 for the record, but I'm glad I went out hard. I could pick my own lines into corners. On such a mucky course with that many turns in the first half lap, I didn't want to get caught overtaking too many in the middle of the race. Course was too narrow for that. There is an extra buzz that comes with being higher up the field, knowing you have gone out hard and you must now 'hang on'. I was running scared in the latter part of the race but thats not a bad way to run! You can just as easily settle in further back and remain in that position all the way round.

Well done to all. See you at the short course 4k in ALSAA in January when we can all go out even harder.