I think my Marriage is over

stickybookmark

tmalmb wrote: »

Ok my solicitor said we will not be able to produce affidavits until the judge approves a section 20 :-/. I'm still hoping to get approval for my eldest to give a statement (but again this is down to the discretion of the Judge).

D day is approaching and I was wondering if anyone has experience of family court and if there are any insights folks can provide. From what I understand this is really my word against my ex's word and it all comes down to the evidence we give/present and how we hold up on cross examination :-/

I gave you this advice already but bring support with you. It will give you a psychological advantage. One time my hubby was battling his ex-gf in court and he went alone, then she turned up with her friend and he had no-one.

It really intimidated him and he ended up agreeing to things he shouldn't have. Bring your sister, brother, mother, father, neighbour, friend, colleague.... just have another not-involved adult there that's on your side and backing you up. You may find (as my husband did) that the whole experience puts you into a bit of a flap and you can't think straight, that's why you need your allies there to calm you down and make you see the wood from the trees.
It also looks better to the Judge that you have support especially if the whole point of the court case is to assassinate your character. If you have support it makes it look less likely that her allegations are true. Family and friends would be less likely to stand behind a wife-beater etc
Good luck!

FishOnABike

tmalmb wrote: »

Ok my solicitor said we will not be able to produce affidavits until the judge approves a section 20 :-/. I'm still hoping to get approval for my eldest to give a statement (but again this is down to the discretion of the Judge).

D day is approaching and I was wondering if anyone has experience of family court and if there are any insights folks can provide. From what I understand this is really my word against my ex's word and it all comes down to the evidence we give/present and how we hold up on cross examination :-/

Hi talmb, check out the following thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=87298243 for some nformation on what a section 20 involves. I fail to see why your(pl.) children's affidavits should depend on a section 20 order being made.

As far as I can see you have been falsely accused and should be entitled to defend yourself - this is a constitutional right to your good name and a fundamental right under the European convention of human rights. How are these rights to be upheld if witness affidavits that would clarify the truth of those allegations are not accepted?

I would be inclined to instruct your solicitor to prepare the affidavits in any case and submit them to the court before the hearing. Give this instruction in writing and accept nothing short of a written explanation if your solicitor does not follow your instructions.

I have no formal legal training but I've had to learn more about family law in the last few years than I'd ever wish. As far as I can tell your children have a right to have their views presented to the court and this is not solely dependent on getting a professional report from the HSE / social worker / guardian ad litem. Their affidavits may result in the court ordering a section 20 report to get professional input but the affidavits should also stand on their own, independent of any order for professional reports.

The following links might be useful :
http://www.lynchsolicitors.ie/news/he-children-and-family-relationships-act-the-voice-of-the-child/
http://dmburke.ie/children-have-a-right-to-be-heard-in-court/
http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice/38932-court-rules-child-has-right-heard.html
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/d73b55d189d6a28a802575140058879c?OpenDocument

I think your solicitor could try harder.

zeffabelli

FishOnABike wrote: »

Hi talmb, check out the following thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=87298243 for some nformation on what a section 20 involves. I fail to see why your(pl.) children's affidavits should depend on a section 20 order being made.

As far as I can see you have been falsely accused and should be entitled to defend yourself - this is a constitutional right to your good name and a fundamental right under the European convention of human rights. How are these rights to be upheld if witness affidavits that would clarify the truth of those allegations are not accepted?

I would be inclined to instruct your solicitor to prepare the affidavits in any case and submit them to the court before the hearing. Give this instruction in writing and accept nothing short of a written explanation if your solicitor does not follow your instructions.

I have no formal legal training but I've had to learn more about family law in the last few years than I'd ever wish. As far as I can tell your children have a right to have their views presented to the court and this is not solely dependent on getting a professional report from the HSE / social worker / guardian ad litem. Their affidavits may result in the court ordering a section 20 report to get professional input but the affidavits should also stand on their own, independent of any order for professional reports.

The following links might be useful :
http://www.lynchsolicitors.ie/news/he-children-and-family-relationships-act-the-voice-of-the-child/
http://dmburke.ie/children-have-a-right-to-be-heard-in-court/
http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice/38932-court-rules-child-has-right-heard.html
http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/d73b55d189d6a28a802575140058879c?OpenDocument

I think your solicitor could try harder.

Because family court exempts itself from due process.

FishOnABike

zeffabelli wrote: »

Because family court exempts itself from due process.

Only if they are allowed to.

A reminder of the Irish High Cort ruling in N v N might not go astray for OP's solicitor or for the judge if he / she were not inclined to admit the OP's children's affidavits in his defense. The suggestion of referring the question of the admissibility of the OP's children's affidavits to the High Court might be enough to smooth their acceptance by the judge.

On the face of it there would appear to be clear legal precedence for allowing a child as young as six to express their views freely and the courts to take them into consideration with appropriate weight according to the child's maturity.

There may be other factors I'm not aware of but there does seem to be legal opinion that children can freely express their views to the court outside of professional reports.

I've encountered good and bad solicitors in my time. Some seem to forget they work for their client, are all to happy to collect their generous fees and fill in template forms but see doing any real work for their clients an an encumbrance.

tmalmb

So the court case came and went, interim orders thrashed out by solicitors and everything remains in place till a future hearing in Dec where we hope to have approved Section 20 social worker reports in place (which of course it won't). The court approved for now that the kids can choose to live where they want...so two move in with me and one stays behind but comes and goes as they like.

What I found interesting (and of course this is me being naive) from the ex's side it all became about the money. So it turns out she wants the house, she wants it paid for, she wants personal maintenance and of course maintenance for any kids remaining with her. She lied on her statement of means, didn't list all her money, lied about the incoming and lied about the outgoings. In court she kept shouting out my salary and basically implied she is living in poverty (which is far from the truth as she has yet to pay a bill)....on a side note claimed to live in fear of her life (which I just can't understand...living in fear from me yet agrees for the children to live with me)

I won't go into details but my solicitor basically said I need to pay her maintenance and maintenance for my child. I am very happy to cover my kids costs but I don't get the pay my ex maintenance (which my solicitor is basically saying is mandatory). My Ex works, is very experienced and is very capable of going from part time to full time (if she chose)...she could basically triple her income if she went to full time work.

In my world (again conscious of my naivety), I would cover half the mortgage, the cost of my kids and my wife would cover her half and get on with funding her own lifestyle. The problem I'm having...is that my solicitor doesn't seem to want to fight this, she's basically saying..sorry your salary is to good, get ready to pay :-/ ...given everything I've been through, everything I've been put through...this seems so unfair. I have yet to even start to challenge for the house, I don't even know when that happens...it seems these initial proceedings are now focused on maintenance.

Do I have options here, am I fooling myself into thinking a fair system/agreement can come from this...do I simply brace myself to go from having and providing a reasonable lifestyle to my kids to now stuggling all because my Ex does not care or want to fund her own lifestyle and costs

Virgil°

tmalmb wrote: »

So the court case came and went, interim orders thrashed out by solicitors and everything remains in place till a future hearing in Dec where we hope to have approved Section 20 social worker reports in place (which of course it won't). The court approved for now that the kids can choose to live where they want...so two move in with me and one stays behind but comes and goes as they like.

What I found interesting (and of course this is me being naive) from the ex's side it all became about the money. So it turns out she wants the house, she wants it paid for, she wants personal maintenance and of course maintenance for any kids remaining with her. She lied on her statement of means, didn't list all her money, lied about the incoming and lied about the outgoings. In court she kept shouting out my salary and basically implied she is living in poverty (which is far from the truth as she has yet to pay a bill)....on a side note claimed to live in fear of her life (which I just can't understand...living in fear from me yet agrees for the children to live with me)

I won't go into details but my solicitor basically said I need to pay her maintenance and maintenance for my child. I am very happy to cover my kids costs but I don't get the pay my ex maintenance (which my solicitor is basically saying is mandatory). My Ex works, is very experienced and is very capable of going from part time to full time (if she chose)...she could basically triple her income if she went to full time work.

In my world (again conscious of my naivety), I would cover half the mortgage, the cost of my kids and my wife would cover her half and get on with funding her own lifestyle. The problem I'm having...is that my solicitor doesn't seem to want to fight this, she's basically saying..sorry your salary is to good, get ready to pay :-/ ...given everything I've been through, everything I've been put through...this seems so unfair. I have yet to even start to challenge for the house, I don't even know when that happens...it seems these initial proceedings are now focused on maintenance.

Do I have options here, am I fooling myself into thinking a fair system/agreement can come from this...do I simply brace myself to go from having and providing a reasonable lifestyle to my kids to now stuggling all because my Ex does not care or want to fund her own lifestyle and costs

At this stage I'd almost certainly be seeking the advice of a different solicitor.The one you currently have isn't being nearly tenacious enough about this.

This is your life OP. You get one. And unless you fight tooth and nail at this next hearing it could spell out an awful lot of misery for a good few years in front of you.

Makapakka

Virgil° wrote: »

At this stage I'd almost certainly be seeking the advice of a different solicitor.The one you currently have isn't being nearly tenacious enough about this.

This is your life OP. You get one. And unless you fight tooth and nail at this next hearing it could spell out an awful lot of misery for a good few years in front of you.

I agree. I know it's scary and you tend you go with the advice of the first solicitor you get but I regretted my first solicitor and am happy with my second. Find someone else who will fight for you.

Can't you declare to see her bank statements/bills etc?

LegacyUser

tmalmb wrote: »

I won't go into details but my solicitor basically said I need to pay her maintenance and maintenance for my child. I am very happy to cover my kids costs but I don't get the pay my ex maintenance (which my solicitor is basically saying is mandatory). My Ex works, is very experienced and is very capable of going from part time to full time (if she chose)...she could basically triple her income if she went to full time work.

OP if your not happy with your solicitor then seek alternative opinions and consider changing but be aware you've been married for 15 years so your wife is entitled to apply for spousal support and has a high chance of getting it as there is a legal obligation under Irish law, to support your spouse.

This isn't about getting into who did what to whom in your particular case, this is just stating a fact that Spousal support is given. Your wife had three children and this effected her ability to earn/carer advancement and she can argue for spousal support from you while she gets herself back to working full time. You can say "o she could get a full time job and could earn X amount" but until she is actually doing that it's not taken into consideration. Judgements are based on your current standing/earnings not potential earnings. If she's made false claims about hers while it's up to you/solicitor to challenge this. The court will look at both your finical situations and base the judgement on that. It is not related to child maintenance, that is separate and there is no fixed rule in Ireland to determine an appropriate figure for maintenance payments.. She can't demand any old figure off you, the court will deem what is appropriate and be aware it is not something that is paid forever, you will very likely be required to pay spousal support for a period and then go back to court to have it adjusted or removed entirely. If she can earn as well as you say then you could be paying support for a very short time but cases are you will have to pay something for a period.

stickybookmark

tmalmb, it's unclear - did a maintenance hearing take place?
Surely the amounts would have been specified during the court case if so?
And if it didn't, do you have a date for one? I don't see why you'd start paying anything until after the maintenance hearing takes place? She has to take you to court to get maintenance you don't just start paying it.

Remember you Always have the power of the mortgage......courts and the guards (so they say...) will chase you for unpaid maintenance but they can't go near you for unpaid mortgage. If you get screwed for maintenance, just pay less mortgage to allow for it

tmalmb

yes it did kinda, in summary, the solicitors trashed out an interim agreement pending social worker reports, barring and safety orders adjourned till next court date. The interim agreement became the foundation of the maintenance order (which I missed completely...as in I thought we were agreeing something pending a maintenance hearing :-/).

Anyway we are back in Dec, I'm already hearing from my solicitor the Ex wants more and I need to do an updated statement of means. I get that I have to pay dues (whether I think its fair or not), my problem is that all they seem to care about is my salary...they are not looking at the Ex's incomings and outgoings (cause she is fudging the numbers)

I don't see the incentive for my Ex to go back to full time employment and increase her earning power (why would you when you can get the same via a maintenance order)

LegacyUser

She gets the house yet 2/3 of kids are living with you?
Maybe you need to suggest you go part time to be there for kids.Suggest she go back full time working.
Call her bluff in other words.

Another day

Op bear in mind Spousal Maintenance is tax deductible. Whatever you pay her for herself notify revenue of. She will then be taxed on it.

It is in your favour to do a new statement of means as you are now renting, have 2 of ypur children residing with you so obviously your situation has changed. Keep all receipts, rent paid, bills etc to back up new financials.

I know of a number of women who were berated by judges for being capable of fulltime work and told to get themselves back into fulltime employment.

Best of luck

Toots

Is there some way where she has to provide bank statements etc to the courts? I remember when I worked in banking and I had to print up about a year's worth of statements and they were being sent in to the courts because a couple was getting a divorce. I think it was called an order of discovery or something. I might be way off here, but it would definitely be worth asking your solicitor about. Also I'd definitely second the advice of chatting with another solicitor if you're not 100% happy with the work your current one is doing, you're paying them enough money, you should be satisfied that they're doing their very best for you.

Shrap

Toots wrote: »

I had to print up about a year's worth of statements and they were being sent in to the courts because a couple was getting a divorce. I think it was called an order of discovery or something.

Affidavit of Means. I just had to do one for my divorce (only the person seeking the divorce has to provide this, if it is not going to be contested....to my knowledge). I literally had to itemise EVERY little thing I spent money on, from laundry products/food/clothes/tax/car/heating/house maintenance ....everything, down to a weekly basis, and also my income from everywhere. Loans, bank statements, credit union, grants, child benefit, the works.

I wouldn't know if this is something that can be done through the courts before a divorce, but it sure would be interesting to see the OP's wife have to come up with one and compare it to the OP's version. This is one thing nobody gets away with lying about.

OP, you need a bulldog of a solicitor. Is your one a family law specialist?

stickybookmark

tmalmb wrote: »

Anyway we are back in Dec, I'm already hearing from my solicitor the Ex wants more and I need to do an updated statement of means. I get that I have to pay dues (whether I think its fair or not), my problem is that all they seem to care about is my salary...they are not looking at the Ex's incomings and outgoings (cause she is fudging the numbers)

The maintenance issue now appears to be getting thrashed out, outside of court. If you refuse to co-operate with this, then she will be forced to bring you back to court for maintenance again and then you might get a fairer hearing.

Sounds like she tried to pull a fast one on the maintenance on a day when you were expecting only barring order and protection order to be discussed i.e. you weren't ready

If you're near Dublin and could drop into that weekly meeting I told you about before, they could really help you with this stuff.

tmalmb

thought I'd give an update (given I've had some much help on here)

Its been a crazy few weeks, I've managed to get a house, I have two kids now living with me and the third sadly is drifting away from me (staying with her mum is having its effect and any time we engage or she comes to visit, she can be quite hostile, I persevere, try not to rise to her hostility...I send her txts every day to try stay in touch, tell her how much I miss here and love her but responses are few are far between

Back in court again before Christmas, follow up from last session. As I understand it from my solicitor my Ex is seeking more money..I'm already now living on Credit Cards so we'll see how that goes. I don't have enough cash to pay next weeks maintenance as I don't get paid till the week of Christmas (damn monthly wages) so I'm not sure what to do.

That said, have a house to call home (even if its substandard) does feel good, having the kids with me is also a blessing and despite the twice weekly solicitor letters with multiple demands and accusations I'm in a good place....I just need to sort out these finances and I can build from there.

Barring Orders etc...are unlikely to be heard till early next year (if I'm lucky)..my solicitor tells me we can't even start discussing selling the house and dividing assets for at least a year and that really all this is going to the circuit court and now its just time and due process

Anyone here ever miss a maintenance payment, should it be avoided (ie should I borrow to cover the payment to avoid the negative impact of missing a payment)

LegacyUser

Op I don't know anything about not paying maintenance orders but I don't think its a good idea to be running up debts on your credit cards as the interest rates on those are huge and when they do come looking for the money they can be pretty aggressive. Are you still paying all the bills and mortgage for the house you shared with your ex wife?

tmalmb

tabs101 wrote: »

Op I don't know anything about not paying maintenance orders but I don't think its a good idea to be running up debts on your credit cards as the interest rates on those are huge and when they do come looking for the money they can be pretty aggressive. Are you still paying all the bills and mortgage for the house you shared with your ex wife?

Yes, but that stops now, all bills up to now are covered, and utilities are now in my Ex's name...that's whats put me in the position, trying to cover two homes. That and the house I moved into was substandard and I had to put some money into it just to make it feel like a home :-/...(landlords should be embarrassed by what they provide people with...but that's another days thread )

I've put a moratorium on the mortgage for 3 mths so that buys me some breathing space (assuming I don't go to deep into debt for Christmas, and the courts don't increase the maintenance)

Merkin

As this has now become a legal issue I am going to close the thread. I hope you found it useful. Best of luck.