Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

Seridisand

Looks like another Train strike going to happen, judging from past form and the mention of next month, I'd imagine they'll aim for the weekend of the September 20th to maximise disruption.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0817/721769-irish-rail/

flyingsnail

The article seems like a bit of posturing to me, they might ballot members that could result in strike action. Sounds like negotiations are not going their way and they want to up the ante.

Jamie2k9

Toys out of the pram again, need to make sure when pay is restored the smaller train sizes need to be taken into account, bet they won't be vocal about that!

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Toys out of the pram again, need to make sure when pay is restored the smaller train sizes need to be taken into account, bet they won't be vocal about that!

its doubtful the size of trains will be changed unless the NTA force it upon them. of course the fixed nature of much of the fleet means when a train is sized it can either be sized to much, or to little. hopefully any more procurements in the future will take advantage of the much better 2 coach unit sets as they can be better formed in to more numbers and matched to demand.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

its doubtful the size of trains will be changed unless the NTA force it upon them. of course the fixed nature of much of the fleet means when a train is sized it can either be sized to much, or to little. hopefully any more procurements in the future will take advantage of the much better 2 coach unit sets as they can be better formed in to more numbers and matched to demand.

I mean drivers pay restored according to train size after all they get increased pay because of longer trains. :rolleyes:

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I mean drivers pay restored according to train size after all they get increased pay because of longer trains.

ah yeah i know what you meant, don't worry. i was just saying in general.

Captain Chaos

Speaking of train sizes, I have noticed there are alot of 8 car formations going around over the past week. Even 8 car LHB sets and they are/were very rare.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Speaking of train sizes, I have noticed there are alot of 8 car formations going around over the past week. Even 8 car LHB sets and they are/were very rare.

you mean they have saw sense in terms of the dart? genuinely wouldn't have expected that.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

you mean they have saw sense in terms of the dart? genuinely wouldn't have expected that.

Sense is a stretch to far but a lot more tourists and in general commuting in Dublin is the reason.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sense is a stretch to far

very fair point.

Infini

Problems arent necessarily the train sizes but rather the LACK OF STAFF to support them. Driving the train is hard enough when you have to concentrate on whats ahead of you without people distracting you with 40 questions because theres no staff on board some of these long distance trains. On top of that theyre getting abuse and threats from drunken bellends while trying to do their job which is stressful enough with all the safety this and that without having to deal with that too. Theres a few idiots out there as well who think its fair game to give the drivers just doing their job a hard time as well.

In addition theres the issues with keeping even the main stations manned even. Theres noone around alot of the time to help wheelchairs and theyre beeing left on platforms sometimes. Drivers on the dart wont put them on not just because its not their job but because of health and safety issues ( paticularly the reason is many wheelchairs are not simple wheelchairs but heavy powered scooters ) and theres questions over wether theyre even insured about that.

Another is the new dart 10min timetable. From what Ive heard so far they were meant to hire more drivers for that but instead theyre replacing drivers leaving instead. That leaves existing drivers facing having to take up the slack with no support or reasonable breathing space.

The whole way the companys being managed with getting rid of staff and refusing to replace staff where theyre badly needed is the root issue. More work and issues are being pushed onto those with enough problems to deal with and theres no thanks or help given from maanagement. The whole strike threat is probably a warning across the bow for management to start doing something to help. Maybe its pay for having to take on more stuff or mebbe its just to get them to hire the staff thats badly needed in some parts.

Its easy to think its just about money when you want to but when you start seeing whats really going on then it becomes alot more understandable. I wouldnt wanna be going on strike myself but management have been dragging and ignoring some of these issues for years expecially with antisocial issues which are getting worse and more dangerous. Sooner or later somethings gonna happen and its because of these things going on that will end up being the cause.

Hilly Bill

There isn't a health and safety issue about putting a wheelchair on a train. All they do is put the ramp down, the passenger does the rest. No insurance issue either. I agree a driver should focus on driving and nothing else seeing as they are being suffocated with countless new safety regulations and any minor slip up could get you stood down but leaving someone stranded just to make a point is poor form.

Jamie2k9

Driving the train is hard enough when you have to concentrate on whats ahead of you without people distracting you with 40 questions because theres no staff on board some of these long distance trains. On top of that theyre getting abuse and threats from drunken bellends while trying to do their job which is stressful enough with all the safety this and that without having to deal with that too. Theres a few idiots out there as well who think its fair game to give the drivers just doing their job a hard time as well.

From a driving point it probably easier than ever and while you have "some" points however the question thing is such rubbish.

When there is staff on board they are generally in with the driver and I expect it's far from dead silence between both of them....

As for been abused is it really a big deal, passengers get abuse nothing IE can do even if they have a hundred staff on the platforms/trains.

Another is the new dart 10min timetable. From what Ive heard so far they were meant to hire more drivers for that but instead theyre replacing drivers leaving instead. That leaves existing drivers facing having to take up the slack with no support or reasonable breathing space.

Slack, remind me when the 10 minute timetable was introduced....

If drivers are replacing ones going then what is the issue when service has not increased.

Its easy to think its just about money when you want to but when you start seeing whats really going on then it becomes alot more understandable. I wouldnt wanna be going on strike myself but management have been dragging and ignoring some of these issues for years expecially with antisocial issues which are getting worse and more dangerous. Sooner or later somethings gonna happen and its because of these things going on that will end up being the cause.

There is going on about money but call a spade a spade here if they were offered a couple of quid extra per day we would hear next to nothing.

Whatever way you look at it it comes down to money. They will have their pay restored from end of next year and it's a small price to put up with until then when passengers have put up with a lot more.

I agree a driver should focus on driving and nothing else seeing as they are being suffocated with countless new safety regulations and any minor slip up could get you stood down but leaving someone stranded just to make a point is poor form.

While H & S is a pain in many respects not a lot IE can do perhaps they had more notice about new measures but there is not a lot of consultation that IE can do if RSC here or EU laws have been drafted and implemented.

What do unions want to discuss the regulations and pick which ones they want?

For a long time in IE, throwing money to fix problems worked with unions but that tap has run dry now...

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

From a driving point it probably easier than ever and while you have "some" points however the question thing is such rubbish.

no it isn't. a drivers job is to drive, nothing more. there is no excuse not to have other staff on board long distance trains.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

When there is staff on board they are generally in with the driver and I expect it's far from dead silence between both of them....

so have them out in a customer facing roll, and ensure they can only use the non driving cab.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

As for been abused is it really a big deal,

it absolutely is .

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

passengers get abuse nothing IE can do even if they have a hundred staff on the platforms/trains.

thats no excuse

Jamie2k9

no it isn't. a drivers job is to drive, nothing more. there is no excuse not to have other staff on board long distance trains.

If the whole county did exactly what their job descriptions say out unemployment figures would be 0 overnight.

Driving a train is straight forward and if anything gets in the way not a lot can be done. I really can't see any issues with them having to put on/off odd wheelchair. There is safety systems in place if passengers require assistance from drivers when they are driving ie-speed drops to around half of what a driver is doing to allow them speak to passengers in a safe way.

They do a great job but a lot of what the union are moaning about is beyond the control of IE.

IE management and unions are probably as bad as each other trying to push each other to the limits.

so have them out in a customer facing roll, and ensure they can only use the non driving cab.

I don't have a problem with them with drivers etc but it's rich of drivers to moan about such things when it happens all the time. How would you police such procedures?

it absolutely is .

thats no excuse

I'm not making an excuse but what are other IE staff going to do, they are unlikely going to interfere as they more less legally can't and it will be a case of waiting for the guards. I agree major stations should be staffed but I don't believe full station staffing is required, the number of passengers is not viable to warrent such an operation which happens across Europe in most stations.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If the whole county did exactly what their job descriptions say out unemployment figures would be 0 overnight.

Driving a train is straight forward and if anything gets in the way not a lot can be done. I really can't see any issues with them having to put on/off odd wheelchair. There is safety systems in place if passengers require assistance from drivers when they are driving ie-speed drops to around half of what a driver is doing to allow them speak to passengers in a safe way.

They do a great job but a lot of what the union are moaning about is beyond the control of IE.

IE management and unions are probably as bad as each other trying to push each other to the limits.



I don't have a problem with them with drivers etc but it's rich of drivers to moan about such things when it happens all the time. How would you police such procedures?




I'm not making an excuse but what are other IE staff going to do, they are unlikely going to interfere as they more less legally can't and it will be a case of waiting for the guards. I agree major stations should be staffed but I don't believe full station staffing is required, the number of passengers is not viable to warrent such an operation which happens across Europe in most stations.

which is why its important to have staff on the long distance trains instead. that way stations that don't justify staff don't have to be staffed. however the drivers job is simply to drive and they should not be expected to do any more.

Hilly Bill

They shouldn't be expected to do more but you wouldn't leave someone on a platform just to make a point. The money will be restored this time next year but the i think the argument here is that staff was promised that the money would be partially restored if the finances got better. Rumour has it, that come next year, they won't restore it and it will remain on the current level indefinitely. Only a rumour though.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They shouldn't be expected to do more but you wouldn't leave someone on a platform just to make a point. The money will be restored this time next year but the i think the argument here is that staff was promised that the money would be partially restored if the finances got better. Rumour has it, that come next year, they won't restore it and it will remain on the current level indefinitely. Only a rumour though.

I expect this will happen however it cannot be an issue until 2016.

The company finance has improved and one would expect a profit this year and next and while drivers may feel they should have pay restored earlier such surplus should be reinvested in infrastructure which is badly needed.

There is also the fact that Income Tax/USC will be cut again this year so after all one wonders how badly will many staff particularly those above lowest grades of pay will actually be off in 2016 compared to 2013.

Looking at bigger picture if they restore it fully from late next year then how many months will we be waiting until unions are calling for everything lose since 2008 to be restored which I hope many staff wouldn't expect but you never know.

Hilly Bill

The only crowd that get looked after are the signal men. When the rest got money cut or refused the agreed pay increase, they got an increase. Maybe its these the drivers mean that got the increase ?
Either way, for an union or a group of unions, they treat the majority of their members as mushrooms as they are in the dark as to what is actually going on and only a chosen few get a say over the rest of them.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The only crowd that get looked after are the signal men. When the rest got money cut or refused the agreed pay increase, they got an increase. Maybe its these the drivers mean that got the increase ?
Either way, for an union or a group of unions, they treat the majority of their members as mushrooms as they are in the dark as to what is actually going on and only a chosen few get a say over the rest of them.

And those mushrooms allow it and go along like the sheep they are and vote to strike.

As for signal lads would I be correct in saying IE wouldn't want to lose any of them as training them up would require much more work/time than a drivers.

LXFlyer

While I'm not going to comment on the particular issues relating to a potential dispute as I don't know what is involved, I think people need to stand back a little when making comments about company finances.

Company finances form two parts:
1) Annual Profit & Loss Account
2) Balance Sheet at year end

Now while the company P & L account might show a profit in one year, that does not mean that you can suddenly relinquish whatever cost saving measures are in place.

You can't simply look at one year in isolation. As at 31 December 2014. Irish Rail had an accumulated deficit of €135m and net current liabilities of €196m.

There needs to be some inroads made into that in order to get the company finances back on track and recoup the losses made in recent years - you don't simply look at the P & L account in one year, see a profit and then say, ok everything can go back to normal.

Those accumulated losses need to reduce and set the company back on track so to speak. Otherwise we could end up back where this started and the company facing financial oblivion.

Heisenberg1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The only crowd that get looked after are the signal men. When the rest got money cut or refused the agreed pay increase, they got an increase. Maybe its these the drivers mean that got the increase ?
Either way, for an union or a group of unions, they treat the majority of their members as mushrooms as they are in the dark as to what is actually going on and only a chosen few get a say over the rest of them.

I would imagine the signal mans job would be more stressful and of a higher grade than a driver so they should earn more than a driver.

Hilly Bill

It's not about who gets a higher basic and why.

Heisenberg1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's not about who gets a higher basic and why.

But you implied that the drivers are not happy the signalmen got an increase and that they would like parity no??

Hilly Bill

No.

Heisenberg1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No.

Then why mention a particular group of employees and that they got an increase in salary ?

Hilly Bill

It's about a certain group getting an agreed pay rise and others being refused it. It's not about wanting to be on the same pay.

Heisenberg1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's about a certain group getting an agreed pay rise and others being refused it. It's not about wanting to be on the same pay.

Why were the signalmen given a raise? Are the drivers doing more work than they were 2 years ago?

Hilly Bill

Yes.

Heisenberg1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Yes.

Such as?

Infini

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/luas-drivers-plan-strikes-in-protest-over-wages-31478937.html

And now the Luas drivers are getting fed up as well.

StreetLight

Infini2 wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/luas-drivers-plan-strikes-in-protest-over-wages-31478937.html

And now the Luas drivers are getting fed up as well.

At least the moaners amongst us can't say: "Privatise it".

Jamie2k9

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-rail-staff-failing-to-report-near-misses-for-fear-of-being-reprimanded-31484298.html

Irish Rail workers are failing to report "near misses" or incidents on the country's railways for fear of being blamed by senior management, a damning safety audit reveals.

Infini

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/rail-boss-tackles-unrest-over-near-misses-31486711.html

Another article as well. Tbh I dont know what to make of it myself its certainly odd the way it came out but at the same time im not suprised as it shows how little trusts their is with management. Their 1st responce to any issue is to blame someone rather than listen to whats happening and do something about it.

markpb

StreetLight wrote: »

At least the moaners amongst us can't say: "Privatise it".

Luas is far better run than Irish Rail. Frequency is better. Operating hours are better. Passenger information is better (look how long RUI campaigned just to get DART staff to put the correct destination on the trains), RPU staff are reasonable. There have been no strikes and far less threats of strikes. Trams were lengthened without any ridiculous claims for increased pay from the drivers. The list is endless.

It's far from scientific but a quick look at this very forum is littered with people complaining about problems with Irish Rail. On the other hand, there's hardly a mention of Luas (other than anti social behaviour on the Red line). Why is that considering they carry the same number of people?

Having new infrastructure helps with the service but the rest is down to TransDev being a far superior rail operator to Irish Rail. I don't believe that's (entirely) because they're a private company and have something to prove and lose. I think it's just because they're better.

end of the road

markpb wrote: »

Luas is far better run than Irish Rail. Frequency is better. Operating hours are better.

and why is that? is it because the company running it are doing it off their own backs at their own expence, or because it gets enough funding for extra hours and frequency? either way its still rather slow and still doesn't have the traffic priority it should, which means its a lot slower then it could have been.

markpb wrote: »

There have been no strikes and far less threats of strikes.

i'm sure there was a strike going back a bit. nothing wrong with strikes anyway, they are a necessary evil. they don't happen unless there is a genuine reason, considering one doesn't get payed while on strike.

markpb wrote: »

Trams were lengthened without any ridiculous claims for increased pay from the drivers.

whats ridiculous about the claims. a train is a lot longer then a tram ever could be. more people = more responsibility. if luas drivers don't want to claim more money thats their right, but it doesn't mean irish rail drivers are wrong.

markpb wrote: »

It's far from scientific but a quick look at this very forum is littered with people complaining about problems with Irish Rail. On the other hand, there's hardly a mention of Luas (other than anti social behaviour on the Red line). Why is that considering they carry the same number of people?

because its a bog standard tram which goes from a to b and only has to offer a seat or just room to get on? on infrastructure that simply has tram only and doesn't have to share services with other forms of train. where as with irish rail there are a large number of things to go wrong due to the nature of the rail network and the different types of services it has to manage. + management who are interested in operational convenience only. all could be dealt with by putting the relevant specifications in the contract with irish rail. why didn't the NTA implement specifications in relation to widely discussed issues in the contract with IE when they renewed it?

markpb wrote: »

Having new infrastructure helps with the service but the rest is down to TransDev being a far superior rail operator to Irish Rail.

far superior how? maybe its the fact they get payed to do a job and if not they can be dealt with. TransDev do what they are payed to and nothing more, why would they? why would anyone? nothing to be excited over. any improvements to irish rail could be implemented tomorrow, but its much easier to play politics then improve the railway.

markpb wrote: »

I don't believe that's (entirely) because they're a private company and have something to prove and lose. I think it's just because they're better.

i believe its because they get payed to do something and there are penalties for not doing it. you could implement a penalty on irish rail if you wanted to, docking a weeks wages from management would be a start unless they have a genuine reason for such failure. (that means actually listening to what is said and making an independant decisian rather then just simply going at them to satisfy the media)

Jamie2k9

Vote for action to commence on Monday!

n97 mini

Is the Enterprise affected if IE's brightest and best decide to down tools?

hmmm

The unions said they were ballotting drivers because the company has failed to fulfill a commitment to reward past productivity increases.

"It's not about money" is what we were told on this thread.

Jamie2k9

n97 mini wrote: »

Is the Enterprise affected if IE's brightest and best decide to down tools?

Most likely

McAlban

hmmm wrote: »

"It's not about money" is what we were told on this thread.

It's NOT about money. It's about Managment breaking their promise to give us money for the increased productivity that never materialised because management failed to implement a more efficient process because we opposed that process unless we got a productivity increase.

n97 mini

McAlban wrote: »

It's NOT about money. It's about Managment breaking their promise to give us money for the increased productivity that never materialised because management failed to implement a more efficient process because we opposed that process unless we got a productivity increase.

So there's been no increase in productivity (whoever is to blame) but workers want a pay increase anyway, and are striking for not getting it?

Infini

McAlban wrote: »

It's NOT about money. It's about Managment breaking their promise to give us money for the increased productivity that never materialised because management failed to implement a more efficient process because we opposed that process unless we got a productivity increase.

I don't know weather this is a troll or not..... -.o

Seriously tho I don't know what will happen plenty of people would rather not strike as on its own it wouldn't accomplish anything. Would rather hit em with work to rule or refusal to work rest days or overtime instead since this would be more effective. It would show both how badly the company been managed as well how poor staffing levels are. Wouldn't even be a strike as well so no loss of core pay.

Realistically the problems that's occurred over the last few years is additional stuff has been taken on by staff but no appreciation has been shown by management. Just throw more stuff on people who actually keep the place going until theyre nearly overloaded. This whole thing about the company losing money is all bull, the goverment cut the funding to the place because FG would rather dump as much of the costs onto the passengers as possible. Its also part of FGs little plan to run things down so they can sell it off look at the water, they cut the funding down drastically and then turn round and say people need to pay more cos we cant afford it with taxes etc. Hell I even wonder who exactly on the board even worked their way up through the company and isnt some political apointee from outside the country, I mean why would we bring someone in from outside instead of getting people who know how the place runs into the top seat?

markpb

Infini2 wrote: »

Hell I even wonder who exactly on the board even worked their way up through the company and isnt some political apointee from outside the country, I mean why would we bring someone in from outside instead of getting people who know how the place runs into the top seat?

The current chairman Phil Gaffney was formerly managing director of the Hong Kong Metro, having also served as Chief Engineer and Operations Director during his 28 years with that company. He is also a non-executive Director of London’s Crossrail Board and a member of the Crossrail Health & Safety Committee.

The rest of the board are the usual people that large companies allow to populate their boards: accountants, mediators, etc. I don't have much time for them but that's just my opinion.

Of course, before anyone complains about no-one on the board knowing what it's really like at the coalface: John Moloney was appointed to the Board in December 2005 under the Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Acts, 1977 to 2001. John joined Bus Éireann in 1978 and works in Capwell Garage in Cork as a bus driver. He is a member of the NBRU.

McAlban wrote: »

It's NOT about money. It's about Managment breaking their promise to give us money for the increased productivity that never materialised because management failed to implement a more efficient process because we opposed that process unless we got a productivity increase.

What does that even mean!?

hmmm

McAlban wrote: »

It's NOT about money. It's about Managment breaking their promise to give us money

What?

McAlban

Sorry Should have engaged the [Sarcasm][/Sarcasm] tags.

It's more tongue in cheek of course. It's a comment on the cyclical nature of industrial relations in IE. They'll eventually reach a compromise and even though Management and Workers will not be 100% happy they'll agree to return to the issue at a later date. And so begins the cycle again.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

What?

its not about money.

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

its not about money.

They're balloting for a strike to get paid more money, but it's not about money?

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

They're balloting for a strike to get paid more money, but it's not about money?

you will have to ask them.

Infini

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0928/730976-luas-drivers-pay/

Interestingly enough the LUAS drivers are looking for a sizable increase of 40% to bring em into line with the rail drivers. I don't blame them considering they're in a more exposed environment tho I don't think they'd get that kind of pay rise in one go either.

Way things are going I wonder if things dont improve that ol Fine Gobshyte ends up with a double strike by both luas and rail staff.

Jamie2k9

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1005/732524-irish-rail/

SIPTU train drivers in Irish Rail have voted overwhelmingly for industrial action in a dispute over pay.

SIPTU organiser Paul Cullen said: "The result of this ballot, which saw 92% of drivers vote in favour of industrial action, indicates the level of frustration felt at the company's refusal to honour an agreement it entered into in September 2014.

"Our members still hope that management will step back from the brink and honour the terms of this agreement to negotiate on past productivity produced by drivers."

He added: "Failure to do so will inevitably lead to the disruption of services provided by Irish Rail."

The National Bus and Rail Union has voted by 95% to back industrial action in a row over pay.

I notice both have conveniently left out turnout figures....