Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

KingBrian2

The train service is good and people should just let the drivers get on with what they do best. If they need additional staff to help out with overcrowding or issues relating to passenger services we have plenty of people looking to get a job across the city.

markpb

Deleted User wrote: »

Your argument would carry more weight if we were in a world with cheap and infinite supply of fossil fuel, as it is, we don't and future generations will be very grateful if we don't destroy one of the most fuel efficient forms of transportation that is available.

I don't agree with their post but yours ignores the fact that our IC rail network runs on fossil fuels too and, considering the numbers carried on some of the services, isn't very efficient either.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

I don't agree with their post but yours ignores the fact that our IC rail network runs on fossil fuels too and, considering the numbers carried on some of the services, isn't very efficient either.

Yes it does use fossil fuel, but the point is that the rolling resistance of a vehicle on rails is about 20% of that of one on tyres. So the system is more fuel efficient relative to road for large loads, one freight train would use much less fuel than the equivalent number of lorries shifting the same load.

A full passenger train would be more fuel efficient than a fleet of buses doing the same journey.

markpb

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A full passenger train would be more fuel efficient than a fleet of buses doing the same journey.

The bit on bold is exactly my point.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

The bit on bold is exactly my point.

An empty passenger train would also be more fuel efficient than a fleet of buses as well.

beauf

I don't care if the buses were electric. I don't want to be stuck on one for an hour. Horrible way to travel in the city.

foggy_lad

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes it does use fossil fuel, but the point is that the rolling resistance of a vehicle on rails is about 20% of that of one on tyres. So the system is more fuel efficient relative to road for large loads, one freight train would use much less fuel than the equivalent number of lorries shifting the same load.

A full passenger train would be more fuel efficient than a fleet of buses doing the same journey.

One freight train goes from depot to depot and requires road freight at each end as well as the double and triple handling it is more economical faster and much more flexible to send freight by road as lorries go to far more places not serviced by rail! business want efficiency but they also require flexibility and the ability to change and adapt practically overnight which will never be possible on any Irish rail network.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

One freight train goes from depot to depot and requires road freight at each end as well as the double and triple handling

not if set up properly. it would simply be ship, train, depot. the only road bit would be to the shops from a distribution depot where used (which exist anyway even with road freight)

foggy_lad wrote: »

it is more economical faster and much more flexible to send freight by road as lorries go to far more places not serviced by rail!

actually it being more economical is debatible. it might be cheeper to the customer but not to the tax payer over all. faster is debatible. flexibility is debatible depending on how it is distributed in the first place. not everything goes straight to the customer, it may go to a distribution depot first. also, the railway is practically empty at night anyway so flexibility there could be over come.

foggy_lad wrote: »

business want efficiency but they also require flexibility and the ability to change and adapt practically overnight which will never be possible on any Irish rail network.

we aren't talking about getting every single bit of freight on to the railway, no country operates that way. however plenty of flows from port to distribution depots in places served by rail could have easily been taken off the road had the distribution depots been built by the lines. the network has flexibility over night and plenty of it. could very easily have been done with some political will. but as none was fourth coming and none will be then the whole debate around it is mute anyway

suicide_circus

Industrial action called off

Jon Stark

That's a relief, just checked their twitter.

Rashers72

Bound to still be a little confusion. I got up an hour early to head on only early operating train from Dundalk to Connolly. Irish Rail online timetable still shows no trains running this morning (as at 6am). Also story completely missing off independent.ie and irishtimes.ie. No updates since yesterday. I wonder will it be a little too late to get some trains running, as I think everyone was convinced they would not run (including me).

ThunbergsAreGo

Alternate arrangement made, and days taken off by people. This just kicks the strike somewhere down the road when we go through all this again

efb

Rashers72 wrote: »

Bound to still be a little confusion. I got up an hour early to head on only early operating train from Dundalk to Connolly. Irish Rail online timetable still shows no trains running this morning (as at 6am). Also story completely missing off independent.ie and irishtimes.ie. No updates since yesterday. I wonder will it be a little too late to get some trains running, as I think everyone was convinced they would not run (including me).

IR said its real time info and planner are not working. One assumes they were deactivated

Jon Stark

Got my usual train there, doesn't look like many missed a beat going by the amount of people on it.

Stranger Danger

Deleted User wrote: »

Your argument would carry more weight if we were in a world with cheap and infinite supply of fossil fuel, as it is, we don't and future generations will be very grateful if we don't destroy one of the most fuel efficient forms of transportation that is available.

And your argument would carry more weight other than the fact it take more fossil fuel to carry the same number of passengers by rail than it does by bus over the distances we have in Ireland.


Next.

Captain Chaos

Jon Stark wrote: »

Got my usual train there, doesn't look like many missed a beat going by the amount of people on it.

There was next to no one on my usually DART this morning and the ones going the other way had next to no one either.

Most people took the day off and made other plans by the looks of things as the traffic is very light in the city centre.

GLaDOS

Never would have realised if there wasn't a load of people getting off at the drumcondra station bus stop

L1011

Real time apps only have trains that left before 6 on them. Hence I'm on an invisible train.

may06

Rashers72 wrote: »

Bound to still be a little confusion. I got up an hour early to head on only early operating train from Dundalk to Connolly. Irish Rail online timetable still shows no trains running this morning (as at 6am). Also story completely missing off independent.ie and irishtimes.ie. No updates since yesterday. I wonder will it be a little too late to get some trains running, as I think everyone was convinced they would not run (including me).

Not true. There was Twitter updates all through the night and from very early this morning, in fact it was between 4-5am i got Irish Rail tweet confirming the strike was called off.
IR confirmed also that their real time time table was not operationing at that time, also viaTwitter.

StreetLight

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Most people took the day off and made other plans by the looks of things as the traffic is very light in the city centre.

Hmmm, so that's why the bus lane on Conyngham Road is stuffed full of cars......

Captain Chaos

StreetLight wrote: »

Hmmm, so that's why the bus lane on Conyngham Road is stuffed full of cars......

Well I start work at 7am so the traffic was very quiet, more so than usual for that hour of the morning of 6:45am as I went through the city.

GLaDOS

Train to Maynooth a lot less busier than usual. Train going the other way which is usually jammed at this point had nobody standing.

L1011

There were seats at coolmine on my train, which is unheard of otherwise. There'll still be lost income today for IR.

hmmm

L1011 wrote: »

There were seats at coolmine on my train, which is unheard of otherwise. There'll still be lost income today for IR.

Drivers get paid and still manage to cause disruption to customers and loss of money to the company.

There must be some sanction if you call a strike off at the last minute?

GM228

hmmm wrote: »

There must be some sanction if you call a strike off at the last minute?

No there isn't, and if there were who would you sanction?

You can't sanction the drivers as the union have the say in cancelling the strike, not the drivers and you can't sanction the union as the company were the ones in the talks trying to avert the strike in the first place, would be a bit ironic then if sanctions were made for cancelling the strike don't you think when that's the prinary ovjective of a company!

GM228

BoatMad

end of the road wrote: »

no no . they don't suit some. the vast majority of lines pass through large towns, so clearly do suit many patterns. what "national culture" don't they suit? trains are here to stay for now, get used to it. no nonsense about national culture will change it

Rosslare , Limerick , Waterford passagner traffic negligible , due to appalling timetable and high fares. Whole line will be lost to the junction in the next few years

Nenagh ballybrophy next up for closure as is Wexford to rosslare , east coast line to Wexford , passing through huge dormitory areas , has appaling service , terrible running times , inadaquate stock, terrible timetable.

Waterford line subject to large numbers of speed restrictions , Station track work and platform usage gutted

Then the scandal of perfectly good 125 mph capable mk3 carraiges left to rot and then scrapped when in the uk they are expected to have 60 year life span

30 201 locomotives bought recently at enormous cost, left to rot in inchicore or used to pull a weed sprayer train !! Millions squandered in poor decisions, glossy projects and misguided thinking. All fur coat and no knickers

Not to mention complete abandonment of freight , a ctc signalling system that dates from the late 70s. 50 year old 071 class being glued together with sticky plaster to keep a few operational locos.

You couldn't make it up.


Sure railways are here to stay - sure they are .........

Mycro

efb wrote: »

IR said its real time info and planner are not working. One assumes they were deactivated

The "real time" info generally seems to be a real time depiction of where a train should be rather than where it is. If a train is running late, the realtime map shows it trundling away on up the line as if a ghost train had passed you by at the station.

Mycro

Now that the talks are moving to the Labour Court, I wonder if the unions will be able clearly outline to the court what extra duties and what extra hours drivers have taken on that need to be recognised. Goodness knows, it has been asked on this forum enough times and nobody has been able to give a specific answer.

The court will not accept the vagueness of the way it has been represented on this thread.

GM228

Mycro wrote: »

Now that the talks are moving to the Labour Court, I wonder if the unions will be able clearly outline to the court what extra duties and what extra hours drivers have taken on that need to be recognised. Goodness knows, it has been asked on this forum enough times and nobody has been able to give a specific answer.

The court will not accept the vagueness of the way it has been represented on this thread.

It's only vague to us outsiders as unfortunately we don't have the knowledge or specifics of what the issues are, I'm sure that specifics and not just vague issues were talked about at the WRC, obviously if it's going that far there are specifics.

I very much doubt that any groups of employees or unions in any industry would have vague issues or go that far without clarify.

GM228

Infini

L1011 wrote: »

There were seats at coolmine on my train, which is unheard of otherwise. There'll still be lost income today for IR.

Well regardless of what happens..... you STILL got a seat!

L1011

Infini2 wrote: »

Well regardless of what happens..... you STILL got a seat!

I get on at Maynooth or Hansfield - I ALWAYS get a seat :pac:


(actually, Hansfield is starting to get a bit tight for seats the past few weeks...)

Thargor

Anyone know what the road traffic was like in town this morning? Trying to gauge what it will be like in rushhour this evening, much of an increase?

end of the road

Stranger Danger wrote: »

And your argument would carry more weight other than the fact it take more fossil fuel to carry the same number of passengers by rail than it does by bus over the distances we have in Ireland.

no it doesn't. it takes less.

hmmm wrote: »

Drivers get paid and still manage to cause disruption to customers and loss of money to the company.

There must be some sanction if you call a strike off at the last minute?

why would there be . obviously some common ground was found, strike called off. would people rather it went ahead? i don't believe they would.

BoatMad wrote: »

Rosslare , Limerick , Waterford passagner traffic negligible , due to appalling timetable and high fares. Whole line will be lost to the junction in the next few years

Nenagh ballybrophy next up for closure as is Wexford to rosslare , east coast line to Wexford , passing through huge dormitory areas , has appaling service , terrible running times , inadaquate stock, terrible timetable.

Waterford line subject to large numbers of speed restrictions , Station track work and platform usage gutted

Then the scandal of perfectly good 125 mph capable mk3 carraiges left to rot and then scrapped when in the uk they are expected to have 60 year life span

30 201 locomotives bought recently at enormous cost, left to rot in inchicore or used to pull a weed sprayer train !! Millions squandered in poor decisions, glossy projects and misguided thinking. All fur coat and no knickers

Not to mention complete abandonment of freight , a ctc signalling system that dates from the late 70s. 50 year old 071 class being glued together with sticky plaster to keep a few operational locos.

You couldn't make it up.


Sure railways are here to stay - sure they are .........

you don't need to remind us all of the bad management. we know. it has been debated on this forum for years, and i'd be one of the first to admit it. however just because it was managed badly doesn't mean it can't be turned around. remember the government here are just as responsible for the mess. you don't need to tell me about the treatment of lines, after all the belief that the treatment of lines is based on the company who originally built them is a widely held belief, so there has to be something in it. we may have large scale closures, we may not, hence i stated "for now" in plenty of my posts on the subject. i'd hardly call the 071s glued together, EMD locomotives are known for being long lasting.

Stranger Danger

end of the road wrote: »

no it doesn't. it takes less.

No it doesn't it takes more.

Not just a bit more - lots more.

Fuel economy on 300-500 mile trips is far superior for busses as can be seen from the figures in the attached report.


http://www.theicct.org/blogs/staff/planes-trains-and-automobiles-counting-carbon


Feel like posting some backup to support your own assertions?

n97 mini

end of the road wrote: »

no it doesn't. it takes less.

Can you back that up with a link to some research you've found? I also find it hard to believe that trains are cheaper in terms of fuel costs alone considering the vast differences in weight.

Stranger Danger

n97 mini wrote: »

Can you back that up with a link to some research you've found? I also find it hard to believe that trains are cheaper in terms of fuel costs alone considering the vast differences in weight.

That's because you're right - they're not.

www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10311

Rail wins!
should really have another thread for this

Stranger Danger

Deleted User wrote: »

www.afdc.energy.gov/data/10311

Rail wins!

If you read the notes under the graph you'll see how they jimmied the figures to get rail first.

Plus it doesn't mention what distance is involved in the calc. rendering it a meaningless comparison.

Over Irish distances busses don't just 'win', they leave rail for dead.

Mycro

Anyway, back to the question. What extra duties have drivers taken on and how many extra hours are they working unpaid for which they are seeking recognition? Cannot understand why this question cannot be answered.

Infini

Mycro wrote: »

Anyway, back to the question. What extra duties have drivers taken on and how many extra hours are they working unpaid for which they are seeking recognition? Cannot understand why this question cannot be answered.

To quote the earlier post.

GM228 wrote: »

It's only vague to us outsiders as unfortunately we don't have the knowledge or specifics of what the issues are, I'm sure that specifics and not just vague issues were talked about at the WRC, obviously if it's going that far there are specifics.

I very much doubt that any groups of employees or unions in any industry would have vague issues or go that far without clarify.

GM228

Noone has the exact info because none of us here are drivers. We can only post what info we know from boards the news and from what info we can get from asking drivers so theres little point in asking over and over as until we get details from the labour court we wont know any further.

Mycro

Infini2 wrote: »

To quote the earlier post.



Noone has the exact info because none of us here are drivers. We can only post what info we know from boards the news and from what info we can get from asking drivers so theres little point in asking over and over as until we get details from the labour court we wont know any further.

Or rather, those who are, are not answering. I simply bet they don't know because they don't have a strong case.

Mycro

Mycro wrote: »

Or rather, those who are, are not answering. I simply bet they don't know because they don't have a strong case.

I suspect that may be the case for both sides.

GM228

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I suspect that may be the case for both sides.

If both sides have a weak case I suppose you could argue both sides have a case of equal strenght!

GM228

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

If both sides have a weak case I suppose you could argue both sides have a case of equal strenght!

GM228

We'll agree to disagree on that one

Mycro

It's easy to see why the talks are going nowhere fast if the drivers or their representatives can't specify what they want past recognition for. Are there other motives afoot I wonder?

LXFlyer

Mycro wrote: »

It's easy to see why the talks are going nowhere fast if the drivers or their representatives can't specify what they want past recognition for. Are there other motives afoot I wonder?

I'm not sure how you're reaching that conclusion? Industrial relations negotiations do not take place on an internet message board - do you seriously expect either side to start outlining their case here?

While I don't for one minute agree with the strike action, nor do I defend those who like to tell you that black is white (I've long since put them onto ignore status), but I think you're expecting a bit much for internal company matters to be discussed in detail here. It's not going to happen.

There would be detailed discussion going on at the negotiations behind closed doors, and that's frankly where it should stay.

I only am aware of one IE driver who has posted on these boards, and that is very irregularly, and to be fair he has never really got involved in IR issues here.

Wild Garlic

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm not sure how you're reaching that conclusion? Industrial relations negotiations do not take place on an internet message board - do you seriously expect either side to start outlining their case here?

While I don't for one minute agree with the strike action, nor do I defend those who like to tell you that black is white (I've long since put them onto ignore status), but I think you're expecting a bit much for internal company matters to be discussed in detail here. It's not going to happen.

There would be detailed discussion going on at the negotiations behind closed doors, and that's frankly where it should stay.

I only am aware of one IE driver who has posted on these boards, and that is very irregularly, and to be fair he has never really got involved in IR issues here.

You'd be surprised how many drivers post here..

Jamie2k9

Mycro wrote: »

Anyway, back to the question. What extra duties have drivers taken on and how many extra hours are they working unpaid for which they are seeking recognition? Cannot understand why this question cannot be answered.

They should be grateful that Irish Rail have kept them in employment over the last 8 years despite everything.

Yes they have some additional measures in place however in a court of law these would not be outside of their job descriptions and the Labor Court will point this out to unions. I accept a few things are however a pay increase is not justified for them.

For a bunch of staff that are always moaning and groaning (not just drivers) it seem's almost impossible for Irish Rail to get rid of them. Speaks volumes in my book!

You'd be surprised how many drivers post here..

And your one...?

LXFlyer

Wild Garlic wrote: »

You'd be surprised how many drivers post here..

Either way - expecting IR to be conducted here is pushing things.

This is an Internet forum - not an IR forum.

Mycro

lxflyer wrote: »

Either way - expecting IR to be conducted here is pushing things.

This is an Internet forum - not an IR forum.

This doesn't normally stop people posting the facts. Could it be the case that there is no case to answer and this is why drivers and the drivers' union are being coy about past productivity demands?

In this economic climate, an offer of 8% over three years is not to be sniffed at. Private sector jobs have been lost left right and centre since the economy collapsed. Public sector jobs remain secure - there have been no mass involuntary redundancies over the last 8 years and none are planned at Irish Rail either it seems.

I'm not saying the drivers don't have a case but there is absolutely no information available to justify the industrial action to the travelling public and those of us who are taxpayers and effectively shareholders in this company. This is a public relations disaster for the drivers. There is minimal sympathy.