Irish Rail - Risk of Strike Action

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1005/732524-irish-rail/


I notice both have conveniently left out turnout figures....

Don't see the relevance of same to be honest. The turn out is the turnout.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1005/732524-irish-rail/


I notice both have conveniently left out turnout figures....

I don't think I've ever seen turn out mentioned before in any industrial relations votes from any industry-it's not very relevant.

The only type of voting we ever seem to have turn out mentioned in is elections or referendums.

GM228

n97 mini

Turnouts are frequently mentioned, just Google strike ballot turnout. For example
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-threatens-one-day-strike-over-junior-cycle-reforms-1.1954871

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Don't see the relevance of same to be honest. The turn out is the turnout.

Of course but holding back the stats (certain they have released before) don't give the full picture. What if it was a turnout of less than 50% for example.

LXFlyer

That statistic is becoming an increasing issue across the water in Great Britain for that very reason - strikes being called in the public sector but based on very low turnouts.

Infini

lxflyer wrote: »

That statistic is becoming an increasing issue across the water in Great Britain for that very reason - strikes being called in the public sector but based on very low turnouts.

It may be a non issue in this case though. Alot of the frustrations are being felt by drivers due to the way management will stonewall everything as much as they can so I can at least believe that figure from talking to drivers myself. Alot of the problems as well seem to stem back to Franks hes micromanaging and blocking everything. End of the day the company cant simply say theyre willing to sit down and then refuse to talk about things. The drivers are more likely to engage in short rush hour strikes at the moment as well as a way of putting pressure on both managent and government without shutting down the system entirely.

Its not just the pay as well its the fact that thanks to the culling of too many staff and the lumping of more and more duties onto the drivers that theyre getting fed up. Its all thrown on them with nothing in return and some of this is going on nearly a decade or more. You got the likes of connolly run completely on overtime according to one driver because of less and less staff. Rail is just as badly manned as the health service becausd theres nothing but management jobs being made and filled too.

End of the day rail is an incredibly responsible job you can have a single driver responsible for a train with up to 1000 people on it and unlike a bus these things are extrely heavy and if your forced to break one of these things at speed you can travel for a good mile or more before actually stopping one of these. This aint something you pay someone minimum wage to drive its a skilled job with months of training involved before you even go out driving in one.

Jamie2k9

Sorry what new duties do they have lets say compared to 12 months ago which have come at the expense of staff.

EU regulation which have come into force do not count.

Infini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Sorry what new duties do they have lets say compared to 12 months ago which have come at the expense of staff.

EU regulation which have come into force do not count.

Its a multitude of issues going back years these aren't just things from last year, they were meant to setup a committee as part of the deal to sort these things but the company is basically saying sure well sit down but were not talking about this and that and so on. I mean if one side is refusing to talk about certain issues in a meeting that's meant to resolve these kind of issues whats the point in even being there in the 1st place?

Alot of problems are in part due to the fact that they're consistently running down staff in stations and part replacing them like the cleaning and such with low paid contractors while making the drivers take up the slack for the remaining things with nothing in return.

Meanwhile there's seemingly plenty of management jobs being advertised every few weeks. Its like everything else in the country lately you know why these strikes in the post or hospitals are breaking out? Cos management just want to ram everything they want through without any input from those actually doing the job. If this happens in any other place including your own eventually people get pissed off and go on strike or take industrial action because noones listening and your out of options.

Wild Garlic

Infini2 wrote: »

Its a multitude of issues going back years these aren't just things from last year, they were meant to setup a committee as part of the deal to sort these things but the company is basically saying sure well sit down but were not talking about this and that and so on. I mean if one side is refusing to talk about certain issues in a meeting that's meant to resolve these kind of issues whats the point in even being there in the 1st place?

Alot of problems are in part due to the fact that they're consistently running down staff in stations and part replacing them like the cleaning and such with low paid contractors while making the drivers take up the slack for the remaining things with nothing in return.

Meanwhile there's seemingly plenty of management jobs being advertised every few weeks. Its like everything else in the country lately you know why these strikes in the post or hospitals are breaking out? Cos management just want to ram everything they want through without any input from those actually doing the job. If this happens in any other place including your own eventually people get pissed off and go on strike or take industrial action because noones listening and your out of options.

Why not answer the question you were asked. What duties?

end of the road

Wild Garlic wrote: »

Why not answer the question you were asked. What duties?

he did answer the question

Wild Garlic

end of the road wrote: »

he did answer the question

Oh ok, must have been deleted then. Maybe he can repost it.

markpb

end of the road wrote: »

he did answer the question

Can you highlight the specific part of his post where he answered what duties the drivers have taken on?

The only thing I saw related to tasks was station staff numbers being reduced and their (unspecified) work being split between contract cleaners (which apparently is a bad thing) and drivers? Are the drivers hopping off to sell tickets, give the windows a quick clean, check the toilet seat is down and then hopping back on the train again?

Hilly Bill

The only ones i know of is taking off wheelchairs at unmanned stations and having to deal with passenger issues . Constantly passengers are being asked to contact the driver via the emergency line at the end of the carriages when there is little or nothing he can do anyway and risk being assaulted if he leaves the cab. They cant fart now without it being recorded and checked to see if its within the company requlations.
Id support the mainline and commuter drivers but ive no support for the dart drivers. One dart driver was informed that there was a wheelchair going to a station that was unmanned and arrangements was made to get the passenger off. The driver wasnt asked to take him off but still said "I hope you told him that if there is nobody there , he will be going all the way to malahide as im not taking him off ".
Its that poor attitude that gets to me as he didnt have to say or do anything.
Aside from all that, they should take a day out and spend it with those that deal with the public everyday good and bad and see all the extra work thats been landed on them( Lost property, carers, assisting visually impared passengers, wheelchairs, fasttrack ( internal), complaints,accidents, glorified receptionists because people think they are dealing with head office rather than just a station and sometimes all at the same time as you are on your own plus having to make sure there is someone to take off the wheelchairs etc at the other end and all for taking the reduced pay which was supposed to be partially restored at this stage. Are the unions or anyone else concerned? no their not but will jump through hoops for drivers who may have to take off a wheelchair down the country somewhere or on the northside.

Infini

Its rosters as well they got a bunch of people doing overtime as well to make up gaps from lack of staff. Place atm is a mess wheelchair users should be able to be looked after but they arent always due to staff not present. Dart drivers not putting on wheelchairs is an issue but this is in part because a wheelchair is a big motorised scooter now and those can be a safety issue if they come off the ramp because of their size alone. Other thing I heard is mainline drivers do get paid to do wheelchairs but dart drivers dont. Its a murky issue that just hasnt been sorted out. Its a multitude of issues across the board that just arent being sorted out and it all piles up until it blows up into this.

Company talks about losing a million a month but if the funding hadnt been cut it wouldnt be losing anything at all its rather the companys UNDERFUNDED 1mil a month in subvention. Its the same across the board they should be putting in the investment to fix these things but they would rather buy an election and start vanity projects instead.

Jamie2k9

Its a multitude of issues going back years these aren't just things from last year, they were meant to setup a committee as part of the deal to sort these things but the company is basically saying sure well sit down but were not talking about this and that and so on. I mean if one side is refusing to talk about certain issues in a meeting that's meant to resolve these kind of issues whats the point in even being there in the 1st place?

Alot of problems are in part due to the fact that they're consistently running down staff in stations and part replacing them like the cleaning and such with low paid contractors while making the drivers take up the slack for the remaining things with nothing in return.

Meanwhile there's seemingly plenty of management jobs being advertised every few weeks. Its like everything else in the country lately you know why these strikes in the post or hospitals are breaking out? Cos management just want to ram everything they want through without any input from those actually doing the job. If this happens in any other place including your own eventually people get pissed off and go on strike or take industrial action because noones listening and your out of options.

I fully expect it's more than one issue however they are not valid grounds for striking. This action is a joke.

The only ones i know of is taking off wheelchairs at unmanned stations and having to deal with passenger issues . Constantly passengers are being asked to contact the driver via the emergency line at the end of the carriages when there is little or nothing he can do anyway and risk being assaulted if he leaves the cab. They cant fart now without it being recorded and checked to see if its within the company requlations.
Id support the mainline and commuter drivers but ive no support for the dart drivers. One dart driver was informed that there was a wheelchair going to a station that was unmanned and arrangements was made to get the passenger off. The driver wasnt asked to take him off but still said "I hope you told him that if there is nobody there , he will be going all the way to malahide as im not taking him off ".
Its that poor attitude that gets to me as he didnt have to say or do anything.
Aside from all that, they should take a day out and spend it with those that deal with the public everyday good and bad and see all the extra work thats been landed on them( Lost property, carers, assisting visually impared passengers, wheelchairs, fasttrack ( internal), complaints,accidents, glorified receptionists because people think they are dealing with head office rather than just a station and sometimes all at the same time as you are on your own plus having to make sure there is someone to take off the wheelchairs etc at the other end and all for taking the reduced pay which was supposed to be partially restored at this stage. Are the unions or anyone else concerned? no their not but will jump through hoops for drivers who may have to take off a wheelchair down the country somewhere or on the northside.

I accept they is an increase in call's but the % of services per driver in which the button would be activated would be like 90% no 10 yes. Nobody is asking them to leave the cab, all it requires is for the train to stop at the next station where there is another staff member and deal with most issues and otherwise call the guards.

If anything passengers are scared to press the button for fear of been ate out of it by the driver on in some anti social cases feeling to intimidated to.

Now moving on to the planned action anybody want to speculate as to why the unions are been very generous and giving IE over 2 weeks notice and only stopping for 3 hours in the morning which will cause problems but nothing as Friday evening would.

Hoping for talks to start and/or trying to keep the public on side to an extent?

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I fully expect it's more than one issue however they are not valid grounds for striking. This action is a joke.

they are valid grounds as everything else has been tried. i agree the action is unfortunate but it is necessary to force the management back into talks

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I accept they is an increase in call's but the % of services per driver in which the button would be activated would be like 90% no 10 yes. Nobody is asking them to leave the cab, all it requires is for the train to stop at the next station where there is another staff member and deal with most issues and otherwise call the guards.

what if staff aren't existing at that station? the gards take time to get to the train, hence why staff are needed back aboard long distance trains. driver only doesn't work on these services. which is why i support the gards in the UK fighting against it and lament that our former onboard staff didn't here

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If anything passengers are scared to press the button for fear of been ate out of it by the driver on in some anti social cases feeling to intimidated to.

well in fairness i wouldn't blame a driver for being annoyed at the pressing of the button all though i would hope they would keep it to themselves. infact i would bet they do. they have enough to do driving the train without dealing with passenger issues. they are train drivers not customer service staff.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Now moving on to the planned action anybody want to speculate as to why the unions are been very generous and giving IE over 2 weeks notice and only stopping for 3 hours in the morning which will cause problems but nothing as Friday evening would.

Hoping for talks to start and/or trying to keep the public on side to an extent?

probably hoping for talks. after all while having public support is nice, it won't solve any of the issues ultimately.

Hilly Bill

Infini2 wrote: »

Its rosters as well they got a bunch of people doing overtime as well to make up gaps from lack of staff. Place atm is a mess wheelchair users should be able to be looked after but they arent always due to staff not present. Dart drivers not putting on wheelchairs is an issue but this is in part because a wheelchair is a big motorised scooter now and those can be a safety issue if they come off the ramp because of their size alone. Other thing I heard is mainline drivers do get paid to do wheelchairs but dart drivers dont. Its a murky issue that just hasnt been sorted out. Its a multitude of issues across the board that just arent being sorted out and it all piles up until it blows up into this.

Company talks about losing a million a month but if the funding hadnt been cut it wouldnt be losing anything at all its rather the companys UNDERFUNDED 1mil a month in subvention. Its the same across the board they should be putting in the investment to fix these things but they would rather buy an election and start vanity projects instead.

Dart drivers think they have to lift the wheelchair off when all they have to do is put the ramp down. One refused because he hadnt been trained on how to put a ramp down . They were getting extra money for doing it but still refuse.
I can understand them not wanting to get out of the cab, but they dont have to be such pricks with it.

Jamie2k9

what if staff aren't existing at that station? the gards take time to get to the train, hence why staff are needed back aboard long distance trains. driver only doesn't work on these services. which is why i support the gards in the UK fighting against it and lament that our former onboard staff didn't here

Most stations are manned and the guards would speed up if there was a immediate danger.

well in fairness i wouldn't blame a driver for being annoyed at the pressing of the button all though i would hope they would keep it to themselves. infact i would bet they do. they have enough to do driving the train without dealing with passenger issues. they are train drivers not customer service staff.

Driving does not take a lot of effort, t's not as if they have to do anyone once the button is pressed.....the train does the work to allow him talk while continue driving.

Infini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Driving does not take a lot of effort, t's not as if they have to do anyone once the button is pressed.....the train does the work to allow him talk while continue driving.

A train isnt like driving a car and if someones looking for an argument over the intercom its the LAST thing you need to be doing while DRIVING. Its also an EMERGENCY thing but some people forget even that!

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

A train isnt like driving a car and if someones looking for an argument over the intercom its the LAST thing you need to be doing while DRIVING. Its also an EMERGENCY thing but some people forget even that!

Your right it easier than a car.......

It is not wildly pressed and I expect an argument is very rare and anyway the driver can cut them off if he likes.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Your right it easier than a car.......

It is not wildly pressed and I expect an argument is very rare and anyway the driver can cut them off if he likes.

I take it, you never driven a train then?

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I take it, you never driven a train then?

Hint of sarcasm but seriously it's not much to expect them to speck to passengers the odd time it's pressed.

If it's a big issue/distraction then should all verbal communication with Central Control be cut when trains are moving.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Most stations are manned and the guards would speed up if there was a immediate danger.

but not all. and how long will they remain manned? it certainly won't be forever. considering the underfunded understaffed gards i'm surprised they would be able to get to any danger quick.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Driving does not take a lot of effort, t's not as if they have to do anyone once the button is pressed.....the train does the work to allow him talk while continue driving.

doesn't matter whether it doesn't take a lot of effort. he is a train driver, not customer service staff. his job is to drive the train and he should be able to concentrate on that without dealing with passenger issues. its what i expect him to be able to do

Infini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Hint of sarcasm but seriously it's not much to expect them to speck to passengers the odd time it's pressed.

If it's a big issue/distraction then should all verbal communication with Central Control be cut when trains are moving.

Drivers are there to drive trains not deal with 40 questions. The communications are only there to be used IN AN EMERGENCY like someone collapsing not query's like what station is such and such near or complaints about the toilets.

Jamie2k9

Infini2 wrote: »

Drivers are there to drive trains not deal with 40 questions. The communications are only there to be used IN AN EMERGENCY like someone collapsing not query's like what station is such and such near or complaints about the toilets.

Do tell me a journey when a button is pressed 40 times, it is not pressed every minute by any stretch and saying otherwise is rubbish. As a regular users I have never saw it been pressed for a random question, I have pressed twice and have witnessed it been hit by accident.

but not all. and how long will they remain manned? it certainly won't be forever. considering the underfunded understaffed gards i'm surprised they would be able to get to any danger quick.

I don't see a major culling on station staff on the way, anyway stations are close and unions can cross that bridge when if it becomes a major problem.

doesn't matter whether it takes a lot of effort. he is a train driver, not customer service staff. his job is to drive the train and he should be able to concentrate on that without dealing with passenger issues.

And they do drive the train, they don't deal with passenger issues and lets say there is a second member of staff on board they would have to enter the cab and speak to the driver if it was an anti social issue and they would have to communicate it with control. This just cuts out the middle man.

alcaline

Just another symptom of the complete lack of trust between the workers and management in a CIE company.
Should the Minister of Transport not be asking questions why the staff don't have any faith or trust in the management.
The drivers in Dublin Bus have not had a pay rise since 2007, only cuts,DB pleads poverty when it comes to drivers wages, yet there has just been a round of promotions at management level, naturally these promotions come with pay rises.
Bet the farm it's the same in IE and BE.

Jamie2k9

alcaline wrote: »

Just another symptom of the complete lack of trust between the workers and management in a CIE company.
Should the Minister of Transport not be asking questions why the staff don't have any faith or trust in the management.
The drivers in Dublin Bus have not had a pay rise since 2007, only cuts,DB pleads poverty when it comes to drivers wages, yet there has just been a round of promotions at management level, naturally these promotions come with pay rises.
Brt the farm it's the same in IE and BE.

The poor souls, who has had pay rises.....

Bus/Rail drivers excluding lowest paid staff have been over paid for years.

alcaline

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The poor soles, who has had pay rises.....

Bus/Rail drivers excluding lowest paid staff have been over paid for years.

What have their feet got to do with it?

Jamie2k9

alcaline wrote: »

Just another symptom of the complete lack of trust between the workers and management in a CIE company.
Should the Minister of Transport not be asking questions why the staff don't have any faith or trust in the management.
The drivers in Dublin Bus have not had a pay rise since 2007, only cuts,DB pleads poverty when it comes to drivers wages, yet there has just been a round of promotions at management level, naturally these promotions come with pay rises.
Bet the farm it's the same in IE and BE.

alcaline wrote: »

What have their feet got to do with it?

Fixed now!

alcaline

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Fixed now!

Good man.

The point of the post is the staff of CIE don't trust the management one little bit, they go back on there word consistently.
There is no money for staff pay rises, but that is not a issue when it comes to a management pay rise.

Jamie2k9

alcaline wrote: »

Good man.

The point of the post is the staff of CIE don't trust the management one little bit, they go back on there word consistently.
There is no money for staff pay rises, but that is not a issue when it comes to a management pay rise.

I'm not surprised they don't trust them however some of what management have did over the last number of year's was needed while other aspects should of been fulfilled. Staff are very well paid for what they do and way over the odds in some cases. If they are that un happy why not change jobs....I will tell you why because they have a nice little set up.

As for CIE, break it up.

alcaline

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I Staff are very well paid for what they do and way over the odds in some cases.

As for CIE, break it up.

There might be a few who are over paid, but not the majority. Can you give examples?
As for breaking up CIE, might be a good idea, the trains are loosing money, DB are in profit, don't know about BE.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The poor souls, who has had pay rises.....

Bus/Rail drivers excluding lowest paid staff have been over paid for years.

no, they haven't. they have never been and never will be over payed

Wild Garlic

end of the road wrote: »

no, they haven't. they have never been and never will be over payed

Nor overworked

end of the road

alcaline wrote: »

There might be a few who are over paid, but not the majority. Can you give examples?
As for breaking up CIE, might be a good idea, the trains are loosing money, DB are in profit, don't know about BE.

CIE was broken up in 1987 into BE IE DB. CIE is just a holding company now like translink is in the north.
trains for the most part will lose money but its worth it for what they provide. of course what is provided in ireland needs improvement and the politics toards certain lines because they were built by the wrong company needs to end

alcaline

Wild Garlic wrote: »

Nor overworked

The are just good at their job and make it look easy

end of the road

Wild Garlic wrote: »

Nor overworked

so? staff should never be "overworked" at all.

hmmm

alcaline wrote: »

DB are in profit, don't know about BE.

Nowhere is in profit, every one of the CIE companies receive an annual bailout/subvention from the taxpayer.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

Nowhere is in profit, every one of the CIE companies receive an annual bailout/subvention from the taxpayer.

getting a subsidy doesn't automatically mean a company isn't making a proffit, that subsidy is to run routes that are loss making but are vital to people in terms of transport needs.

alcaline

hmmm wrote: »

Nowhere is in profit, every one of the CIE companies receive an annual bailout/subvention from the taxpayer.

DB made a profit this year, looks like a lot of people here will be disappointed.

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

getting a subsidy doesn't automatically mean a company isn't making a proffit, that subsidy is to run routes that are loss making but are vital to people in terms of transport needs.

Right. I suppose it's a convenient fantasy that allows workers to claim that they should paid more because their company is "profitable".

If CIE workers want to allow competition into their markets and get the reward from their wonderfully well run companies, they should allow it.

alcaline

hmmm wrote: »

If CIE workers want to allow competition into their markets and get the reward from their wonderfully well run companies, they should allow it.

!0% of routes are open for private operators, none are interested.

hmmm

alcaline wrote: »

!0% of routes are open for private operators, none are interested.

That's untrue. The recent strike was in opposition to the opening of routes to competition.

alcaline

hmmm wrote: »

That's untrue. The recent strike was in opposition to the opening of routes to competition.

And as result of the strike the 10% are still open to private operators,none want them.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

Right. I suppose it's a convenient fantasy that allows workers to claim that they should paid more because their company is "profitable".

no, its fact. a subsidy is to run loss making routes. it has nothing to do with proffitability

hmmm wrote: »

If CIE workers want to allow competition into their markets and get the reward from their wonderfully well run companies, they should allow it.

in terms of the bus market, there is plenty of competition in the market where such competition is viable. CIE have never stopped it nor can they allow it as it has nothing to do with them. its up to competitors to come in and compete. however much of what CIE run simply isn't viable and therefore isn't going to attract competitors as its just not viable financially. the rail network due to its nature will not be able to have competition unless you want to build competing lines to every place served all ready, or 8 or more track everything.

hmmm wrote: »

That's untrue. The recent strike was in opposition to the opening of routes to competition.

it wasn't. it was to do with tendering.

Wild Garlic

end of the road wrote: »

so? staff should never be "overworked" at all.

Ah sure won't the unions see to that so no worries there eh

alcaline

Wild Garlic wrote: »

Ah sure won't the unions see to that so no worries there eh

Sure why would you pay union dues if they did not look out for your best interests?

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

the rail network due to its nature will not be able to have competition unless you want to build competing lines to every place served all ready, or 8 or more track everything.

You know that's not how competition works on railways. The infrastructure remains the same, the operating companies compete to win the tender to run the railway. We don't require private bus companies to build their own motorways.

Wild Garlic

alcaline wrote: »

The are just good at their job and make it look easy

They make it look easy because it is easy. As long as they stay awake they are grand

end of the road

Wild Garlic wrote: »

Ah sure won't the unions see to that so no worries there eh

yes, and rightly so.