On Liveline right now - residential dog training

boomerang

On Liveline right now - two callers have phoned in about sending their childrens' dogs to Service Dogs Europe Ltd. for residential training as assistance dogs. It cost them 5,000 to 6,000 per dog and the dogs were at the centre for up to 11-12 weeks. Both dogs came home with service dog certificates, but both parents insist neither dog was in any way improved by the experience bar basic obedience and are still pulling on the lead/barking at strangers etc. Both were pets that were sent there for training - not pups/dogs bred for purpose.

Service Dogs Europe say they use the same guidelines as ADI (Assistance Dogs International) but they are not accredited by ADI. Don't think I should mention their location or the owner's name, but suffice to say when it comes to residential training, CAVEAT EMPTOR!

Nody

Fools and money, fools and money...

If they had taken 1/10th of that money and spent it on a local, certified and vetted dog behaviourist those problems would most likely been resolved (or have a action plan to resolve them by now). As for getting a certified assistance dog by paying a company in Ireland for it? Please send me a PM and I'll give you a deal of a lifetime on a lovely red bridge...

As always people want results without putting any time in not realizing that they are 90% of the problem in the human - dog relationship...

boomerang

The problem the callers had is the long waiting lists for certified assistance dogs and the time the (busy) parents would need invest in fundraising to gain one. Can't blame the charities for that, but it explains the callers' motivation. I think it's a bit harsh to call them fools, they were just sadly naive. More than simply wanting the dog trained, they wanted them certified so that the dog could accompany their children into shops, restaurants etc.

tk123

Ah missed the start of it but they're talking about it again! Will have to catch the podcast. I saw a dog in training having its face yanked off the other week - "trainer" teaching the mum to yank on the the lead which was attached to a head collar every time the dog pulled. Then saw another dog (possibly the same one now that I think of it) with 'owners' freaking out every time it looked at passing dogs - ie making the dog afraid of other dogs!

boomerang

One dog bit the son when it got home after the residential training. Trainer told the parent to hit the dog on the nose so he wouldn't do it again. Even the owner had the good sense to know you don't train a dog by hitting it.

Nody

boomerang wrote: »

I think it's a bit harsh to call them fools, they were just sadly naive. More than simply wanting the dog trained, they wanted them certified so that the dog could accompany their children into shops, restaurants etc.

If you pay 6.000 EUR without doing even basic research on how training is done, the certification is done etc. then sorry I'll call that person a fool. Naive would be thinking that all dogs would be suitable or that it would be an easy thing to get or that all certificates are equal.

tk123

Legends!!! They went back for the dog after 4 hours

i_Steve

Guys I've been in touch with adeu over the last couple of months Assistance Dogs Europe which are the governing body and they said they know of them but are in no way affiliated with them and they've had no training from any organisation
The only place in Ireland anyone can get properly trained for training an assistance dog is with Irish Guide Dogs

i_Steve

Also Assistance dogs from IGDB cost €2 for public but people don't want to wait for a fully trained dog

tk123

i_Steve wrote: »

The only place in Ireland anyone can get properly trained for training an assistance dog is with Irish Guide Dogs

There's actually a few other places like Dogs for the Disabled, AADI, My Canine Companion etc

i_Steve

tk123 wrote:

There's actually a few other places like Dogs for the Disabled, AADI, My Canine Companion etc

To right they are brilliant organisations and the dogs receive proper training

Tranceypoo

boomerang wrote: »

On Liveline right now - two callers have phoned in about sending their childrens' dogs to Service Dogs Europe Ltd. for residential training as assistance dogs. It cost them 5,000 to 6,000 per dog and the dogs were at the centre for up to 11-12 weeks. Both dogs came home with service dog certificates, but both parents insist neither dog was in any way improved by the experience bar basic obedience and are still pulling on the lead/barking at strangers etc. Both were pets that were sent there for training - not pups/dogs bred for purpose.

Service Dogs Europe say they use the same guidelines as ADI (Assistance Dogs International) but they are not accredited by ADI. Don't think I should mention their location or the owner's name, but suffice to say when it comes to residential training, CAVEAT EMPTOR!

I just came on here to post about this, was out walking the dogs (funnily enough) and was listening on my phone, my goodness those people paying all that money! And him telling the woman 'give him a tip on the nose'......oi vey!!

I missed the beginning bit though, I thought that the company had supplied them with the puppies, so these were puppies that the people had got (from where?) and brought them to this company?

muddypaws

I was told about it, but missed it, hopefully there is a podcast. I'm just glad that people are finally finding out the truth about this organisation, I was asked to help at a fundraiser for a family to get a dog from them, and it didn't go down well when I explained that I couldn't, and why. It is very, very sad that people are in desperate need of assistance dogs, and in their desperation have believed the hype, sad for the families and for the dogs.

tk123

muddypaws wrote: »

I was told about it, but missed it, hopefully there is a podcast. I'm just glad that people are finally finding out the truth about this organisation, I was asked to help at a fundraiser for a family to get a dog from them, and it didn't go down well when I explained that I couldn't, and why. It is very, very sad that people are in desperate need of assistance dogs, and in their desperation have believed the hype, sad for the families and for the dogs.

Funny I just know I'll be contacted one of these days for a family member doing the same thing and I'll be saying the same as you!

mymo

I actually know of a family that bought a pup and sent it there, they were fundraising for it and asked me, I said I couldn't in good conscience donate as I had heard bad things about the place and asked them to do some research. They were very offended, rude and upset about it, had a right go about what would I know etc.
(My close friend looked at assistance dog for her two children and chose to wait on the list rather than go to this place after researching for months)
3 weeks later the dog was sent away, not heard anything since, I do hope for their child's sake it went well.
It's so sad someone can, as I see it, take advantage of often desperate families.

muddypaws

I've never been a Joe Duffy fan, today that has changed. Not letting them off the hook. Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

boomerang

It took up the whole programme. He really seemed affected by it, didn't he.

tk123

Did he say it's on again tomorrow? I've never listened to him until now but thought it was very good.

Tranceypoo

tk123 wrote: »

Did he say it's on again tomorrow? I've never listened to him until now but thought it was very good.

Yes it sounded like it was going to be on again tomorrow, very interesting listening, that guy from the company sounded like he didn't know his a**e from his elbow!!

muddypaws

I felt a bit sorry for the man, I bet he didn't think this is how his job would go.

So sad that so many families feel let down like this, and dangerous as the father with the diabetic son pointed out.

boomerang

Can't believe they are taking dogs out of the pound and buying dogs on the internet to train as service dogs. Surely the pup has to come from the right breeder.

Raminahobbin

boomerang wrote: »

Can't believe they are taking dogs out of the pound and buying dogs on the internet to train as service dogs. Surely the pup has to come from the right breeder.

And not even properly assessed for suitability- the guy selling his dog on donedeal was just asked if the dog was shy or not, essentially.

So, all the other assistance dogs trained by the reputable places named by tk123 are sourced correctly, taken from puppyhood, and raised by experienced puppy handlers until they're about a year and a half old, THEN placed with the family.

This crowd give you any dog they can get their hands on by the sounds of it, and you're responsible for the socialisation and basic training of the pup- no easy feat, especially for the inexperienced dog owner with a special needs kid on their hands who might not have the time or knowledge to do this. Then the dog is taken away for 8 weeks and "trained" in a crash course of everything they need to know??

I'm surprised they have so many good reviews if this is the way they carry on. But then, they've surely had no small part to play in ensuring this is the case- I can't find any accounts online speaking negatively about them. I think I remember threads here in the past about the residential training at what I assume is the same location, but they're gone now. Surprise surprise.

tk123

boomerang wrote: »

Can't believe they are taking dogs out of the pound and buying dogs on the internet to train as service dogs. Surely the pup has to come from the right breeder.

There's been threads on here with people rehoming labs/retrievers and somebody calling them to take them as service dogs too(!)

Well what goes around comes around as they say .... just a pity so many dogs and people have gotten screwed over in the process!

i_Steve

Raminahobbin wrote:

And not even properly assessed for suitability- the guy selling his dog on donedeal was just asked if the dog was shy or not, essentially.

It goes on from that pups are in homes from about 7 weeks old until around 14/15 months old if they're good enough they'll go in for their formal training which lasts approx 28 weeks so the dog is nearly 2 years old when they qualify
Taking a "pup" in at 11/12 weeks old is terrible they've already missed out on critic training/learning/development these guys don't have a clue what they're at by the look of things

tk123

I remembered to tune in today ... Those poor people and dogs though!

Pretzill

tk123 wrote: »

I remembered to tune in today ... Those poor people and dogs though!

Yes and how right the caller on now is about the age of dogs and their training ability. People are too trustworthy - this company sounds highly dodgy -

tk123

And shock horror some randomer on now saying how great they are. Just like the olden days of API!:rolleyes::mad:

foggy_lad

This crowd are scamming people who should be spending all those thousands of euro/£ on their child or family member who needs the help of an assistance dog!

muddypaws

Ah that woman is definitely singing from the company hymn sheet. I wonder what her relationship is, Henry phoned her to get her onto the programme? Hmmmmm.

My sympathy for Michael after yesterday has completely gone after that revelation that he told the man after the programme that he did not promise a refund, but that they would discuss a refund. Is he a complete idiot? It is on record.

Raminahobbin

muddypaws wrote: »

My sympathy for Michael after yesterday has completely gone after that revelation that he told the man after the programme that he did not promise a refund, but that they would discuss a refund. Is he a complete idiot? It is on record.

I'm not defending him at all, but I'd say he got read the riot act for that, was told he wouldn't be let on air today, and just clumsily backtracked on what he said because his employer told him to. I forget what his job is up there but assuming it's some sort of managerial position, he knew full well that the best course of action was a full refund in this case and that anyone with a reasonable, customer focused business would provide one. Once he got off the air I'm sure he was reminded quite loudly and sharply that this is not the type of business he works for and was forced to retract.

As the face of the company on air, he deserved all that was thrown at him yesterday, but I still felt a bit sorry for him on a personal level tbh. He's only there 8 months, probably didn't know anything about the company really before he joined. I will be very surprised if he doesn't resign soon after everything he heard yesterday, and I'll completely retract my feeling sorry for him statement if he doesn't.

I think it's pretty clear he himself doesn't pull any strings and isn't involved in the decision making- he was very stumped for answers to some of the allegations yesterday and I don't think he knows anything about the day to day running of that place.

I think I know this place...and I've sent a couple of dogs here before for boarding and recommended other people do so also. Am I lucky? I've never had any issues and I like a couple of the guys I've met working there...

tk123

Deleted User wrote: »

I think I know this place...and I've sent a couple of dogs here before for boarding and recommended other people do so also. Am I lucky? I've never had any issues and I like a couple of the guys I've met working there...

If it is the same place then yes, you're lucky your dogs weren't damaged by being there... and maybe lucky to hear what the place is like? We're not allowed name them on here anymore - that says it all!

hardCopy

Deleted User wrote: »

I think I know this place...and I've sent a couple of dogs here before for boarding and recommended other people do so also. Am I lucky? I've never had any issues and I like a couple of the guys I've met working there...

From what the first customer said, you were lucky the dog was even housed in sanitary conditions.

muddypaws

Raminahobbin wrote: »

I'm not defending him at all, but I'd say he got read the riot act for that, was told he wouldn't be let on air today, and just clumsily backtracked on what he said because his employer told him to. I forget what his job is up there but assuming it's some sort of managerial position, he knew full well that the best course of action was a full refund in this case and that anyone with a reasonable, customer focused business would provide one. Once he got off the air I'm sure he was reminded quite loudly and sharply that this is not the type of business he works for and was forced to retract.

As the face of the company on air, he deserved all that was thrown at him yesterday, but I still felt a bit sorry for him on a personal level tbh. He's only there 8 months, probably didn't know anything about the company really before he joined. I will be very surprised if he doesn't resign soon after everything he heard yesterday, and I'll completely retract my feeling sorry for him statement if he doesn't.

I think it's pretty clear he himself doesn't pull any strings and isn't involved in the decision making- he was very stumped for answers to some of the allegations yesterday and I don't think he knows anything about the day to day running of that place.

Fair point. I wouldn't want his job for any money.

tk123

Talk to Joe again today!!

Holy sh1t - it goes from bad to worse!

boomerang

When some, previously well-adjusted dogs are coming out of there as cowering liabilities (I know of two that went on to bite a child) you've GOT to wonder what they are doing to the dogs to get them to comply.

hardCopy

Their fundraising site just crashed. DDOSed by Joe Duffy.

Millem

Oh gosh, I am just catching up on this now! I can see how a parent would be desperate to get an assistance dog but they really didn't do their research.

It is just bonkers. I know the waiting lists are huge and in some cases closed with the reputable organisations but I would prefer to fundraise for them or else consider a companion dog or try and source a pup from a breeder who donates pups to the organisations.

tk123

Millem wrote: »

Oh gosh, I am just catching up on this now! I can see how a parent would be desperate to get an assistance dog but they really didn't do their research.

It is just bonkers. I know the waiting lists are huge and in some cases closed with the reputable organisations but I would prefer to fundraise for them or else consider a companion dog or try and source a pup from a breeder who donates pups to the organisations.

In fairness any bad reviews are deleted so all they're going to see is good ones!! The problem is that these organizations don't get state funding so it creates a market!

hardCopy

Millem wrote: »

Oh gosh, I am just catching up on this now! I can see how a parent would be desperate to get an assistance dog but they really didn't do their research.

It is just bonkers. I know the waiting lists are huge and in some cases closed with the reputable organisations but I would prefer to fundraise for them or else consider a companion dog or try and source a pup from a breeder who donates pups to the organisations.

To be fair to the parents, I think most people would assume that it would be impossible to operate a scam on this scale in Ireland. They've even set up their own GoFundIt type website to 'help' victims pay for the training.

People generally have a perception that if you have a professional looking website, a landline number and a bricks and mortar premises then you must be legit. The fact that they claim to have branches all over Europe adds to this air of credibility.

In any unregulated industry it can be difficult to understand which professional accreditations you should look for, even the puppy farming industry have created a legitimate sounding representative body.

Similar problems exist in most forms of complimentary healthcare.

Millem

tk123 wrote: »

In fairness any bad reviews are deleted so all they're going to see is good ones!! The problem is that these organizations don't get state funding so it creates a market!

Sorry I mean research in how long it takes etc to get trained.
A quick phone call to any of those organisations will tell you! Or I am sure it is on their websites. Surely the parents have seen "pups in training" out and about?

tk123

Millem wrote: »

Sorry I mean research in how long it takes etc to get trained.
A quick phone call to any of those organisations will tell you! Or I am sure it is on their websites. Surely the parents have seen "pups in training" out and about?

I agree but I think they're just that desperate to get the dog to help their child and then see a website with all these great reviews etc etc and like a lot of people think they high price tag = quality

Millem

tk123 wrote: »

I agree but I think they're just that desperate to get the dog to help their child and then see a website with all these great reviews etc etc and like a lot of people think they high price tag = quality

Oh gosh I know they are desperate. Assistance dogs are amazing I have seen it with my own eyes with kids in school.

scarepanda

I'm catching up on this as well at the moment. It's horrifying to listen to, both with what the families go through and also what the dogs go through as well. There are so many red flags raised about the treatment of the dogs from the first caller on, it's very scary.

muddypaws

I was out all day today, so just catching up now. Scarey stuff.

I think that for those of us for whom dogs are a huge part of our lives, we forget that for most people, they are just a small part, they don't do the same research that we do, have anything like the same knowledge, so they do believe things they see on websites, in the media etc.

ShaShaBear

I had to inform a family member recently that this business is just in one county in Ireland, not an office branch in one county that represents a huge European organisation - which is what she was led to believe by the married-in family member that told her what SHE was led to believe. There would be no talking to her and I have to live with the knowledge that one of these potentially badly abused dogs are going to end up around three children under 4, one of which has autism and another of which is only a newborn

I think the message here is to research the place and what they offer before sending your dog here. I've had nothing but positive experiences with this place as I've mentioned. I am concerned by what I've read here though however I think the best thing for all future customers or people reading this thread is to do your own analysis, visit the places you're thinking of, check out their Facebook profiles and see what other customers say and make a call for yourself...

tk123

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the message here is to research the place and what they offer before sending your dog here. I've had nothing but positive experiences with this place as I've mentioned. I am concerned by what I've read here though however I think the best thing for all future customers or people reading this thread is to do your own analysis, visit the places you're thinking of, check out their Facebook profiles and see what other customers say and make a call for yourself...

AFAIK that place don't allow visitors so I wonder if it IS the same place? Looking up FB profiles is a waste of time when fake positive reviews are all that's posted and the bad reviews are removed though. A quick google of their other company name would land anyone back here with thread after thread of real reviews.. so probably why they have a second name!

If I wanted a shock collar and choke chain slapped on my dog for their 'holiday' I'd know where to send them..

tk123

tk123 wrote: »

AFAIK that place don't allow visitors so I wonder if it IS the same place? Looking up FB profiles is a waste of time when fake positive reviews are all that's posted and the bad reviews are removed though. A quick google of their other company name would land anyone back here with thread after thread of real reviews.. so probably why they have a second name!

If I wanted a shock collar and choke chain slapped on my dog for their 'holiday' I'd know where to send them..

Hmmm I think we're talking about the same place but I was able to freely visit...have you sent your dog there?

My dog never had a shock collar put on him and if he did, he wouldn't be going there.

EDIT: There seem to be number of different services offered - I'm referring to the boarding facility. I've had positive experiences here.

tk123

My dad came home yesterday "Hey I was listening to Joe Duffy today and they were talking about dogs" - he'd didn't hear the other shows and knew nothing about it.. Looks like they've closed their service dog business!

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/

ShaShaBear

tk123 wrote: »

My dad came home yesterday "Hey I was listening to Joe Duffy today and they were talking about dogs" - he'd didn't hear the other shows and knew nothing about it.. Looks like they've closed their service dog business!

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/

Closed?!?! :eek: