Got Caught Speeding in NI

michealsad

Hi All,

Now I got caught speeding in Northern Ireland, just over the border, on the way to Belfast.

Before anyone starts lashing out about accepting punishment etc, I already know that I am 100% at fault, and acted carelessly. There is no excuse. I broke the law.

I was doing 83MPH in a 65MPH zone, (which was reduced to roadworks). The PSNI pulled me over and took my irish drivers license and started screaming about 'drivers from the south taking the P1ss and acting carelessly.

He told me he was going to take my license and get a ghost license created in the UK and add penalty points to it and that I would get the license back in 4-8 weeks, he'd give me a receipt incase i was stopped down here and needed to present a license.

I explained that I was travelling for work to the USA and would need to hire a care, he asked for proof which I luckily had my work phone on me and was able to show him the car rental reservation in the USA and he let me off...phew.....

I wont be speeding again, trust me, pretty scary experience, when i refused to give him my license before I explained everything, he was gonna throw me in a cell for the night apparently and get me barred from driving in the UK again.

Just wondering, can the PSNI take your license like that? IS that what happens down here when people on UK licenses get caught ?

awec

michealsad wrote: »

Hi All,

Now I got caught speeding in Northern Ireland, just over the border, on the way to Belfast.

Before anyone starts lashing out about accepting punishment etc, I already know that I am 100% at fault, and acted carelessly. There is no excuse. I broke the law.

I was doing 83MPH in a 65MPH zone, (which was reduced to roadworks). The PSNI pulled me over and took my irish drivers license and started screaming about 'drivers from the south taking the P1ss and acting carelessly.

He told me he was going to take my license and get a ghost license created in the UK and add penalty points to it and that I would get the license back in 4-8 weeks, he'd give me a receipt incase i was stopped down here and needed to present a license.

I explained that I was travelling for work to the USA and would need to hire a care, he asked for proof which I luckily had my work phone on me and was able to show him the car rental reservation in the USA and he let me off...phew.....

I wont be speeding again, trust me, pretty scary experience, when i refused to give him my license before I explained everything, he was gonna throw me in a cell for the night apparently and get me barred from driving in the UK again.

Just wondering, can the PSNI take your license like that? IS that what happens down here when people on UK licenses get caught ?

Firstly, are you sure the limit was 65? That is not a normal speed limit given the national speed limit is 70 and it would make no sense at all for roadworks to reduce the limit by 5mph. If there were roadworks the limit was probably a lot lower than that.

In the UK when you are done for speeding you surrender your license. Usually the officer gives you a ticket and you have a few days to bring your license along with the paper bit that goes with it to your local PSNI station.

It's sent off to the DVLNI I think and you get it back about 6 weeks later. For Irish licenses I suspect the police take it themselves and they'll take your address to post it back to you.

While it sounds he was trying to scare you into slowing down in the UK you can get an instant ban for excessive speeding.

Fred Swanson

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awec

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Where you can be banned, irrespective of your current points situation.

I didn't mean instant ban as in you are banned instantly from that moment, it's instant ban as in you can be banned even if you have a completely clean license if your speeding is deemed bad enough.

michealsad

Thanks for the replies,

But the PSNI cannot endorse points onto an Irish license, so effectively the points would be stored on a UK database against my name.

Just thought it was strange that he would take an license issued outside of the jurisdiction.

Now, in the UK they have two parts to the license, a paper piece aswell ? Is that where the points go? in the republic we don't have that, so just seems pointless him taking the plastic card? Going to all that hassle for someone who doesn't live in the jurisdiction.

I checked the speed limit, it was 60, apologies.

Fred Swanson

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Very Bored

One thing which came to mind reading this is the proximity to the border the OP suggested he was within. Suppose he was only a few yards over it and I would guess that the PSNI officer was not in his own car at the time of the discussion. Even by reversing the OP could have been back in the south before the PSNI officer could do anything. Now, I am not suggesting it as a suitable nor appropriate course of action, but what would happen if the OP had done that? Could the PSNI officer have done anything?

awec

Very Bored wrote: »

One thing which came to mind reading this is the proximity to the border the OP suggested he was within. Suppose he was only a few yards over it and I would guess that the PSNI officer was not in his own car at the time of the discussion. Even by reversing the OP could have been back in the south before the PSNI officer could do anything. Now, I am not suggesting it as a suitable nor appropriate course of action, but what would happen if the OP had done that? Could the PSNI officer have done anything?

They can alert the Gardai to the make, model and registration.

You'd be stupid to try this and would probably be making a much bigger problem for yourself, aside from the fact it would be a highly dangerous maneuver to attempt on a busy dual carriageway. Probably impossible as the police will pull in behind you when they stop you usually.

OldMrBrennan83

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Fred Swanson

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Richard

Fred Swanson wrote: »

There is no longer the paper part in the UK.

Actually, that's not completely true. The paper part is only gone in Great Britain. In NI it is still in force. Also, the DVLNI (Now DVA) is still in existence. It is only vehicle registration that has gone to Swansea. The DVA still do licences and MOTs in Coleraine

marmurr1916

In no part of the UK do the police normally seize your driving licence. What usually happens after you're stopped is that they'll ask to see your licence. If you don't have it with you (not an offence in itself) they can give you a form requiring you to present your licence at your local police station within a specified period. Obviously that's not practical if you're from outside the juisdiction and you should always have your Irish licence on you if you're driving in the North or Britain. If they decide to prosecute you'll be told at the roadside and issued with a notification of intention to prosecute. This is usually followed up (can be several months later) with a court summons that gives you the option to appear in person or admit guilt by post (fill in the form included with the summons and send it back to the court that issued the summons). There's generally no need to appear in person in court for a simple speeding offence unless you're so over the speed limit that you're also being prosecuted for a more serious offence such as driving without due care and attention or dangerous driving. The speed limit on a dual carriageway is generally 70mph in a car unless signposted otherwise, either as a permanently reduced limit or temporarily during roadworks. There is no 65mph speed limit so you must be mistaken about that. Reduced speed limits during road works would never be shown in increments of 5mph or at least I've never seen them - usually on a dual-carriageway the roadworks limit is set at 50mph or 40mph.

You don't need to worry about penalty points. A shadow driving licence can be created if you don't have a UK driving licence and penalty points can be applied to it but it's up to a court to decide on whether or not to issue penalty points, not an angry cop at the side of the road. Even if you did get penalty points on a shadow UK licence they can't be added or transferred to your Irish driving licence.

Only a court could decide on a driving ban not a cop at the roadside. A UK driving ban has no legal force outside of the UK's jurisduction so unless you drive in the North or Britain regularly it wouldn't have much effect on you. It doesn't matter if you don't have a UK licence for a driving ban to be in effect in the UK. So if you ever get a UK driving ban don't drive in the UK for the duration of the ban even if you have a non-UK licence. But the ban only applies within the UK, not in the republic or any other foreign country.

I wouldn't believe too many of the horror stories about being banned or sent to prison in the UK for speeding. Those kind of harsher punishments are usually only given to idiots who do stupid and dangerous things like driving at 80mph in a 30mph residential area.

An "ordinary" speeding offence (like doing 83mph on a 70mph dual-carriageway) will usually result in 3 penalty points plus an £80 fine (and court costs in England & Wales) or a cop giving you a stern lecture and a warning before letting you go.

michealsad

Thanks Again,

So yeah per my other post the speed limit was 60 on the dual carriageway because of roadworks.

So after doing research, if you are caught speeding in NI, the PSNI, will take your irish license and send it off to get a ghost UK license created to add points that are only applicable in the UK.

Takes about 8 weeks and is a total waste of time if you live in the republic.

awec

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Only a court could decide on a driving ban not a cop at the roadside. A UK driving ban has no legal force outside of the UK's jurisduction so unless you drive in the North or Britain regularly it wouldn't have much effect on you. It doesn't matter if you don't have a UK licence for a driving ban to be in effect in the UK. So if you ever get a UK driving ban don't drive in the UK for the duration of the ban even if you have a non-UK licence. But the ban only applies within the UK, not in the republic or any other foreign country.

I don't believe this is true.

As far as I know the UK and the ROI have a mutual agreement when it comes to driving bans. If you're banned in one you're banned in the other.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/cross-border-driving-ban-order-signed-1.852428

"Motorists who are banned from driving in the UK and Northern Ireland will have their disqualifications recognised and applied in the Republic from today."

Very Bored

Thanks for your replies to my question. On the subject of stupidity, I was playing devil's advocate by asking a hypothetical question rather than suggesting it as an appropriate course of action. Also, I can now, re-reading, see the OP was on a fast road where he could only go in one direction. In my mind, he had crossed the border on some country lane near Crossmaglen lol.

I felt they would probably contact the guards but would the guards have an automatic right to pursue something that happened in another jurisdiction? Wouldn't it be incredibly messy? Wouldn't it then involve extradition laws? Again, I am not suggesting it as a valid course of action, its the hypothetical nature of the situation which interests me.

slimjimmc

awec wrote: »

I don't believe this is true.

As far as I know the UK and the ROI have a mutual agreement when it comes to driving bans. If you're banned in one you're banned in the other.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/cross-border-driving-ban-order-signed-1.852428

"Motorists who are banned from driving in the UK and Northern Ireland will have their disqualifications recognised and applied in the Republic from today."

He's correct on this point, it doesn't matter where your licence is from; if a UK court bans you from driving in the UK then you're banned from driving in the UK.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

It doesn't matter if you don't have a UK licence for a driving ban to be in effect in the UK. So if you ever get a UK driving ban don't drive in the UK for the duration of the ban even if you have a non-UK licence.

His next point is generally correct also imo, as the mutual agreement between Ireland and UK is not an automatic recognition. The UK authorities must request to have a UK ban recognised here and an Irish court must review the case and decide if it agrees. The mutual recognition also only applies to court issued bans not penalty point bans.

marmurr1916 wrote: »

But the ban only applies within the UK, not in the republic or any other foreign country

marmurr1916

awec wrote: »

I don't believe this is true.

As far as I know the UK and the ROI have a mutual agreement when it comes to driving bans. If you're banned in one you're banned in the other.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/cross-border-driving-ban-order-signed-1.852428

"Motorists who are banned from driving in the UK and Northern Ireland will have their disqualifications recognised and applied in the Republic from today."

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that. I wonder if it's even remotely constitutional under the Irish constitution?

Edit: just saw the post above explaining that it must be reviewed and approved by an Irish court before it comes into effect - that would get around the constitutional objections.

marmurr1916

Very Bored wrote: »

Thanks for your replies to my question. On the subject of stupidity, I was playing devil's advocate by asking a hypothetical question rather than suggesting it as an appropriate course of action. Also, I can now, re-reading, see the OP was on a fast road where he could only go in one direction. In my mind, he had crossed the border on some country lane near Crossmaglen lol.

I felt they would probably contact the guards but would the guards have an automatic right to pursue something that happened in another jurisdiction? Wouldn't it be incredibly messy? Wouldn't it then involve extradition laws? Again, I am not suggesting it as a valid course of action, its the hypothetical nature of the situation which interests me.

Let's say you did cross the border on a country road, were speeding and passed a PSNI patrol car. You could do a quick u-turn and head back across the border. If you make it across what could the gardaí do? If you weren't speeding or committing any other offence in the republic the gardaí have no power to arrest you on behalf of the PSNI and send you back across the border and the gardaí can't prosecute for a road traffic offence committed outside the state. All they could do is pull you over and give you a bit of a lecture and you'd be well within your rights to make a complaint to GSOC if they arsed you about and held you up for too long. Unless the PSNI put in an extradition request (prettty unlikely for a simple speeding offence) you'd get away with it, although I suppose they could theoretically request extradition for the more serious offence of failing to stop for the police if they could be bothered. Of course, you'd have to stay out of the north (at least in the car you were caught speeding in) forever or risk being pulled by the PSNI next time you cross the border.

marmurr1916

michealsad wrote: »

Thanks Again,

So yeah per my other post the speed limit was 60 on the dual carriageway because of roadworks.

So after doing research, if you are caught speeding in NI, the PSNI, will take your irish license and send it off to get a ghost UK license created to add points that are only applicable in the UK.

Takes about 8 weeks and is a total waste of time if you live in the republic.

I wonder if they bother summonsing Irish drivers to court so they can be fined or do they just issue a shadow UK licence and ask the court to impose penalty points on it (or get you to agree to have penalty points added to the shadow licence after they've pulled you over)?

If you get issued with a notice of intention to prosecute, followed by a summons, you can either choose to accept the penalty points (and why not if they're not going to affect your Irish licence?) and the fine. If you decide to contest it you'd normally be expected to appear in person in court or at the very least get a solicitor to make your case on your behalf.

If all they do is get penalty points added onto your ghost UK licence it's pretty pointless as a punishment!

Fred Swanson

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awec

On the subject of penalty points, while they may not actually go on your license what happens if you fail to declare them to your insurer, you have an accident and they become aware that you have UK points?

When I checked this out last time (I was in the opposite situation of having a UK license and got Irish points) I was told I must declare the "ghost" points to my insurer.

This may have been because I was getting insurance in Ireland, and had Irish ghost points (so may not apply if you are getting Irish insurance with UK ghost points), but does anyone know the definitive answer here?

lismed

Hi all, sorry for dragging an old thread up, but something similar happened to me 18 months ago. Caught speeding and told I would be arrested if I could not produce a NI address to send the summons. Luckily enough my housemate is from up there so was fine got the summons, filled in my admission of guilt along with heartfelt apologies, sent it all off and hadn't thought about it since.

My question is, if I haven't received any notice of penalty points or anything since the court date can I even have them or is it likely that my case was thrown out??

Bear in mind that the court date was well over a year ago, and I know for a fact that no correspondence has been sent to either my address or my housemates.