Horse has become impossible to work with.

Jen Pigs Fly

Having some trouble with my mare so I thought I'd post here to get a more Irish viewpoint as to what's going on. (Online seems to be predominately aimed at Americans).

Background first. Arabian mare, 14 years old, 15hh, broken and riding 7 years, have owned her all that time (7 years). She's in a field with two other mares.

This year she's gotten very bad, she's impossible to catch, when I do finally catch her and ride her she's even worse the next day. It's like she's work sour? If that makes sense? If I bring her in, groom, tack up and ride she's a demon to catch for ages afterwards.

I've spent weeks just going out to her, not catching her, giving her treats in the field, encouraging her to follow me, put the headcollar on and releasing straight away, just giving her pets and love, bringing her in to just groom and chill out in a paddock - and guaranteed the one time I ride her she goes back 10 steps the day after.
I live 40 mins away so it's hard to go up purely to give her a pet in the field and that's it?

When she is in, she will point blank refuse to go into her stable, and when finally in she paces, weaves, screams, kicks the door and gets very panicky. She will try to bolt to go back to the field giving half the chance.

She's impossible to lead back to the field but I'm working on that.

Tacking up is a nightmare, she kicks out when you put the saddle on, bites and kicks out with the girth (has always done this so I do the girth one hole at a time and use a stud girth to even out any pressure, she bites the stable door which is fine, better than me). You can't stand near her side, saddle needs to be put on her from her shoulder and God love you if you need to fix the numnah she will side swipe you with her leg :mad:
Once she's tacked up she's a dream to ride, but it's the hassle of getting there that's annoying me.

Saddle was completely refitted, re flocked and tree remade a few months ago, she's had her back, teeth, feet done.

I've tried bringing her in. Spending an hour or two just grooming my hanging out in a small paddock or lunge arena just petting and talking to her before we ride but no matter how long I do this, after riding she just will not be caught.

This year is the first year I've had these problems with her.
It's like she's buddy sour, field sound, work sour and saddle sour :rolleyes: I've never known A horse to be this difficult before, she has turned into a different horse and has become very unmanageable.

She was off for a year last year when I was away working. She wasn't left to run wild though as I'd still bring her in when I was back for a groom (no riding, was no point), she goes in to her stable during the winter no problems. Brought her back into work February this year. But she has only started getting bad during the summer.


Honestly I'm at my wits end, I don't want to sell her as once the drama is over she's a sweetheart, but I'm planning on buying a second horse purely so I can have a bit of fun with him, and not have to deal with a fight every step of the way. It's like dealing with a stroppy toddler. But a toddler who knows is a big powerful animal.


The problems I'm facing is, at my yard I'm just getting people going "ah just get on with it and ride her she'll be fine" and when riding go, "see look she's grand!" The problem is, riding she's a dream, it's the stress, the fighting, the tears, the trying to be nice but knowing she's doing it purely to be bitchy that gets me. Had a dressage lesson a few weeks ago and I had to actually go for a 10 min cry before hand because she had riled me up so much with her behaviour to try to calm down.

I hope someone on here can give me an insight. I really need help and unfortionately I have no one offering constructive advice around me, just people telling me to get on with it.

TLDR; mare who is normally ok won't let me catch her, did loads of ground work and then she's ok, once you ride she goes back to being bad, very bad behaviour when leading, kicking out and biting when tacking up despite saddle being redone and her back, teeth, feet done, dream to ride, won't go into stable.
- buddy sour
- feild sour
- work sour
- saddle sour


Help!!!

fits

That sounds really bad. I think the first thing I would do is move her. you are in a place now she associates with that sort of behaviour and the fighting. She needs to get used to working again. Could you send her to be schooled for a couple of weeks and then when she comes back mix up her living situation and herd. The herd dynamics are really important.

The biting while tacking up sounds like theres pain involved too but mares can be like that.

Basically what you are doing isnt working so try something different.

Ave Sodalis

How is she with the bridle OP?

Jen Pigs Fly

fits wrote: »

That sounds really bad. I think the first thing I would do is move her. you are in a place now she associates with that sort of behaviour and the fighting. She needs to get used to working again. Could you send her to be schooled for a couple of weeks and then when she comes back mix up her living situation and herd. The herd dynamics are really important.

The biting while tacking up sounds like theres pain involved too but mares can be like that.

Basically what you are doing isnt working so try something different.

That could be an option actually .. A friend of mine has a small stable block and may be willing to take her on. She's always done the biting when tacking up, have many, many different vets and chiros out and found no pain issue, it's just mareish behaviour.
I might see can I even change her herd, she's in with 2 mares and all three are very, very bossy mares (they're the only horses who can take each other's bossiness!)
I might be too soft with her too, I might just need to be more firm with her, let her do her tantrums, and then continue, I might be rising to her without even realising and she may be picking up on that.

sup_dude wrote: »

How is she with the bridle OP?

Bridle itself she's perfect, she opens her mouth for the bit, doesn't digit and never holds her head up. I have her in a full cheek snaffle, french link with a copper roller which she loves, she goes into a fab shape and really listens to contact in it. I use a grackle nose and as she sometimes gets strong when excited.

She's also ridden bitless.

fits

Their environment is really important. My gelding is a totally chilled out animal at home. Brought him on holiday with the mare two years ago ( they were in a field) and he was a nightmare the whole time. He lost the head altogether.

EJ Aza

Sounds like she is just being extremely herd orientated and you are not leader any more. Remove her from the other mares for a start, they obviously have their own hierarchy going on and you are an inconvenience and every time she is put back into the field she soudns like she needs to reestablish this hierarchy.
Options:
Put her in a field by herself so she looks forward to seeing you and interacting with someone.

Same with the stable, she sounds like she is being a brat, can you leave her in there for a week or so, if this is a new behaviour she will hopefully eventually stop.

Make the area she is let out in smaller with electric tape (the issue with this is constantly moving it every day!)

Lead her in a bridle, or, halter not a headcollar so you can have more control and give immediate reaction to her actions

It sounds like you need to be a lot more firm with her, do you give a chuck of the leadrope everytime she acts like a cow or do you ignore it and then praise her when she is being good? I am all for positive reinforcement but at the end of the day these are horses, working animals not pets and they don't go around patting each other all day....

Do you have an arena / large area? Lead her on a lunge and bring a lunge whip every time she acts up lunge her on a large circle, for the first while she will think it is great and probably go around for ages, after a few times it will soon get boring and she will think twice about kicking out if she is made to work hard until you tell her she can stop. The issue is with this is that it takes a lot of time but it will be worth it in the end. Unfortunately it sounds like she has got to the stage where it wont be an easy fix.

Give her to someone for a week that wont take any of her crap, after that work your way back with her?

Just chucking out ideas!

fits

EJ Aza wrote: »

Options:
Put her in a field by herself so she looks forward to seeing you and interacting with someone.

Same with the stable, she sounds like she is being a brat, can you leave her in there for a week or so, if this is a new behaviour she will hopefully eventually stop.

!

I wouldnt agree with these two suggestions.

EJ Aza

fits wrote: »

I wouldnt agree with these two suggestions.

That's fair enough it should be individual to the horse though it may help, she seems to have bonded a bit too much with the mares in my opinion.

Having been involved with horses for over 20 years and broken / trained numerous it's a case of whatever works. And the more tools in your box.... Etc!

If the mare is by herself she is more likely to see you as her herd she will be more willing to interact. Can then gradually introduce another animal.

As for the stable option, again it's you are the outlet and the 'fun', she is 14 it doesn't seem like a case of being frightened or upset, more frustration. Every time she starts I would imagine due to time constraints she is put back out in the field for the evening so it's a 'reward' for her behaviour, leaving her in there for an evening and getting someone to let her out in the mornings when she is calmer may help.

All options!

Edited to add - you need to get back to being respected, other horses being around in her company 24/7 won't help the speed of this I.e take her out of her comfort zone. She is 14, wise and probably knows all the tricks.

Ave Sodalis

Have you checked her cycle OP? If she's fine with the bridle and she's fine with work, it could possibly be her ovaries giving her bother that she dislikes the saddle. At the same times, there could still be many reasons.

Just be careful with discipline. We had had a mare that turned sour and someone tried the whole beating it out of her, only to make her completely unworkable and dangerous. Also, positive reinforcement has be proven to be the most effective way of teaching in countless studies. The timing just needs to be right.

EJ Aza

sup_dude wrote: »

Have you checked her cycle OP? If she's fine with the bridle and she's fine with work, it could possibly be her ovaries giving her bother that she dislikes the saddle. At the same times, there could still be many reasons.

Just be careful with discipline. We had had a mare that turned sour and someone tried the whole beating it out of her, only to make her completely unworkable and dangerous. Also, positive reinforcement has be proven to be the most effective way of teaching in countless studies. The timing just needs to be right.

Totally agree don't send a horse anywhere that's going to try beat this out of her! No need for that at all.
It is very hard for most people to get the positive reinforcement at the precise moment. This is where you end up with horses becoming biters (if they are being given treats as reward say), boisterous and spoiled brats which is much harder to correct!
Needs to be a careful balance and you know your mare best.

EJ Aza

How are you getting on?

Jen Pigs Fly

I've started a pressure and release method when leading which really does help I've found. No point jerking the lead rope when leading as fear would make her worse (I know by her she's a very nervy horse anyway) so when she attempt to bull on ahead I apply a lot of pressure and tell her to walk, once she does, pressure is Immediately released.
She's gotten to the point. Very quickly where I only need to shorted the lead rope to apply pressure and she stops and walks.

With saddling I've started to put her into her stable. She doesn't like it one bit. But I've started a step back method that worked for another horse I know. When in the stable i will ask her step back from the stable door, she will run around when I have the saddle but with patience and asking her to step back she finally accepts that I won't let her look out and once saddle is on she gets a pet and is then allowed to look out again. It's ironic how in winter she never wants the leave the stable.

I dint think it's cycle related, as she's like this all the time. Vet checked her out around a month ago and said ovaries, uterus and womb are all good as I'm hoping to breed her next year. Despite all the problems with catching and tacking up she is a very, very sweet and placid mare which is why a lot of people aren't seeing the problems I'm seeing. L

I've been trying to put her into the stable only for short intervals as she weaves, neiggs excessively, paces, paws, panics when in there, she won't eat hay when put in and won't eat feed when it's put in there she just continues to weave and scream. I've tried to groom when she's in there but I know by her the attention is no where on me as she just stares out with ears pricked Intently forward.

She's just a changed animal, she used to be so happy to come in and get a groom and go for a hack nice and quiet with no problems, we could be tacked up in 2 seconds flat with no drama and walk quietly in and out of the field.

fits

Id definitely be changing up the herd completely. Is there a quiet old horse she could go out with?

Ave Sodalis

fits wrote: »

Id definitely be changing up the herd completely. Is there a quiet old horse she could go out with?

+1, is there a horse who is super easy to catch that she could go out with?

Not addressing the saddle issue but her getting anxious in the stable, has she attached herself to any of the horses in the field? I know a horse who gets worked up with seperation anxiety if you don't take his companion in too and put him somewhere visable (although he's fine to ride etc without the companion).

Jen Pigs Fly

I might have a retired 30 year old she has been out with before to go out with. Never had trouble with her when she was with this old pony.

Asked around today and apparently a people are having trouble with her when hacking past her field, she's apparently running at them to protect the other two mares, so that will be my best case to get her moved really.

She has a history of that, last year she was fine to catch but wouldn't let other people catch their horses who were in with her. She's a diva.

I put her into the stable today with no hesitation, she walked in and got a handful of feed which she ate, after a few minutes anxiety started again but I left her for another 15 mins and she settled, then put her back out again.

It is separation anxiety, she buddy's up with other horses very, very quickly and hates leaving their side.

emma-fly

My horse can get like this. He is a complete gent, he is 15 and a big ol hunter and riding club horse.

I have taken him show jumping on his own and again he is a gent but when I take him with another horse in the box or in the warm up, he is a loon.
He screams and rears and tries his best to get back to the other horse, even attempts rushing out of the arena while competing!

So in the end I have had to separate him at home and where possible when away. He is now in a field on his own and while it doesn't solve the issue completely it certainly helps.

Another thing I have heard of doing to help the separation anxiety is when riding do not give them a chance to think about it. For instance when hacking all they can do is think about it but if you are schooling set poles on the ground in a circle at irregular intervals ie 1 stride then three then two so the horse has to concentrate on what they are doing and not on what they are missing.

Jen Pigs Fly

I'm working in trying to get her out on her own, there's a lot of fields resting At the moment so space is premium, but I'll ask! I'd like her to be on her own but share a fence line with other horses so she feels some security at night for example.

Anyone know of any problems associated with keeping a horse on their own? She will be able to see other horses, but hopefully not the mares she's currently out with. She may need to go somewhere away from the main walkways as she does go mad when other horses walk by.

Wintertime will be ok because I'm up 2/3 times a day to her ... But while she's out I'm not up every single day as it is a 45min driven each way.

Ave Sodalis

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

Anyone know of any problems associated with keeping a horse on their own? She will be able to see other horses, but hopefully not the mares she's currently out with. She may need to go somewhere away from the main walkways as she does go mad when other horses walk by.

It really depends on a horses personality. Some horses have absolutely no problem with staying on their own. Other horses will try and jump out of the field. Your best bet is to put her out and stay at the gate for a while to see if she settles. It may not work at all. There is another opinion as a last resort that's used for injuried horses going out for the first time after a long time on stable rest which is giving them a small dose of sedalin so they don't get too worked up. You run the risk then of them getting worked up after it wears off. She could also be like a mare we had and sedalin didn't work on her at all. She still managed to pick up her handlers with her head and pull them up and down the yard when the clippers were turned on :rolleyes:

Jen Pigs Fly

sup_dude wrote: »

It really depends on a horses personality. Some horses have absolutely no problem with staying on their own. Other horses will try and jump out of the field. Your best bet is to put her out and stay at the gate for a while to see if she settles. It may not work at all. There is another opinion as a last resort that's used for injuried horses going out for the first time after a long time on stable rest which is giving them a small dose of sedalin so they don't get too worked up. You run the risk then of them getting worked up after it wears off. She could also be like a mare we had and sedalin didn't work on her at all. She still managed to pick up her handlers with her head and pull them up and down the yard when the clippers were turned on :rolleyes:

Going by what I know of her, if I remove her from her feild and go about our business, a groom, riding, another groom, bit of feed to settle her and then Put her into the new feild there shouldn't be much drama until she realises a few hours later she's not going back.
I bring her up to the main yard and she's happy to potter around the small holding paddocks, very easy to catch and always comes running over to me when I enter. She's be similar in a new field. I'd just have to keep an eye on her for a few hours so when she does realise she's not going back I can go over and show her that I'm still around.

Despite the fact she has no respect for me nor am I no longer seen as herd leader when it's just me and her she's always looking for reassurance and will calm when she's on her own and I go over. She's odd.

fits

I would say an old companion is preferable to none at all.

Jen Pigs Fly

fits wrote: »

I would say an old companion is preferable to none at all.

Yes I'm thinking that too, I'll see if her old friend who is 30 is on her own might be able to get her in with her. My mare is the only horse this mare has ever got on in.

EJ Aza

I think you are doing the right thing, it will take time. Like I said with the stable issue leave her there til her attitude changes then put her back out in the field and just as you saw the other day after fifteen mins she calmed down.

As for horses on their own, as pointed out some take to it, some don't. I had a mare who spent years on her own but I spent hours with her. She does screech a bit and get distressed when I remove something from the field but it only lasts a couple of hours and more because she has never taken to retirement very well....she loves being ridden.

You can only try, so can you ride her and put her in a pad and then back in the field when the horses have been taken out? Can you leave her between a pad and stable for a few days and give her a break from her 'herd' as she sees them and introduce her to a different friend. It may be that she will need rotating with some friends so she will never become totally attached like she is now. A small paddock is best as less likely to have a proper run up to jump a fence. Does the yard have a cow or sheep? That also helps.

It's lovely seeing horses greet each other and have fun so it would be a pity to lose that but look at it as short term hardship for long term gains. It will be better for her in the longterm if she can come and go easier without getting stressed.

It sounds like you are making progress with getting back to being respected. :-) pressure halters are great for sensitive animals.

Rips

Agree with what has been said about the environment. Simple changes can cause both my mares to turn into the antichrist.

One mare likes to work, but if you leave her out for a couple of weeks she is difficult to bring in/work. Nothing as extreme as your mare, but say for example. One time, I brought her in after her being off for a forthnight, tacked her up, fine, but then after warming up, had to lead her through her companions field to hack out? She spun 180 on me when I tried to remount, total panic and left me for dust, running screaming back towards the field. Completely unexpected and out of character, but easy in hindsight to see where I went wrong.

Splitting them into separate paddocks in the same field, in my case, helps the young mare, who does not become herd bound, but interesting, makes the older mare more insecure and flighty. Its just about knowing what works and what doesn't. Its not nice, but it really can be about having them in a mindframe where they are almost 'resigned' to what the programme is.

Over the winter when I had only two, the young horse would have to stay stabled while I rode the old mare. (Resigned to being shut in)
When I have a field companion, I have the old mare in a routine of being caught in by herself, getting fed, and working away with the others out in the field, but I have to work up to this and win every battle. (Resigned to coming in alone!) If she has been off for a few days, I have to be careful, and stage her in, with some days just coming in to quieten down and maybe a lunge and a feed.

For my young mare, segregated turnout works, in which case, she quietens after a day and you can work away. At the moment, they are out together, the two mares, and the young mare won't even be caught... where, usually she's in your face. It depends which horse is working to which way they are left out.

I could put either horse in the horsebox and drive them 5 minutes up the road and they will be 100% :rolleyes:

You will think I am nuts, but the first couple of times I took the old mare away in the box and left the young mare at home stabled, I basically pretended there was still a horse in the stable.
I closed over the young mares top door, was really quiet about leading the old mare out and loaded her well away from the yard. When I came back and opened her top door, I walked to the old mares box and started talked to her like she was still there, telling her to 'get back' as I walked in etc, and then went and stomped around in the stable for 5 minutes before I left. Old mare is inclined to stand in the back of the box and not put her head out anyway, so the young mare never copped.

Once I had been away and back for a few short trips, she knows that we come back and she is fine.

It is about removing that fear and nervousness, that causes unpredictable behaviour.

Jen Pigs Fly

Things came to a head today ... Literally.

She's become much better at entering the stable, there's no hesitation she goes right in, but was still getting worked up when in there. Her buddy has become very vocal when my mare leaves. So I decided to put her into the lunge arena to potter around when she calmed a bit. She had pooed on her leg so I went in as every other day with a wipe (which she's well used to - I groom in the lunge arena and we do a lot of fun stuff in there such as games) to clean her up. She cantered off, spun her bum and kicked out, missing my head buy an inch.

Bystanders who were watching said it was deliberate, she pinned the ears and took aim. Needless to say she was instantly made run, I don't stand for behaviours like that at all and she knows this. (Mare bit me once 7 years ago and has never done it since). Afterwards I waked her for a good while to cool her down and she was much more attentive to me. Walked when I said so, stopped when I stopped.

Because of that however she is now in a paddock on her own, she has a fence line with a friend from last year. Her buddy has been screaming for her all evening.

The buddy in question has become wild, she is never handled. She can't be caught, she pins her ears at you, she's mean and will bite. I wonder if I mare has picked up on her distrust of people. The kicking out was pure "get away from me I want to go back to my friend!" Which after having her for 7 years so so uncharacteristic of her.

Time will tell now .... The wheels are in motion, winter feild plan is being set, and while she may have a fence line, I can't see her being in with another horse, I don't want her to become dangerous which she does when she has a best buddy

Tomorrow I plan on a grooming session as an apology of sorts, and I will try some games again with her in the lunge arena (this time with a schooling whip for my own protection) so try to show her I can be her friend too and that I'm to be the leader not her. Battle of wills.

Honestly I just want things to go back to when she was the happy mare who came running up to me full of neighs and joy and who you could tack up in the aisle and shed stand there happy to get a treat afterwards and would fall asleep when getting groomed.

EJ Aza

xxxJennyxxx wrote: »

Things came to a head today ... Literally
Bystanders who were watching said it was deliberate, she pinned the ears and took aim. Needless to say she was instantly made run, I don't stand for behaviours like that at all and she knows this. (Mare bit me once 7 years ago and has never done it since). Afterwards I waked her for a good while to cool her down and she was much more attentive to me. Walked when I said so, stopped when I stopped.


The buddy in question has become wild, she is never handled. She can't be caught, she pins her ears at you, she's mean and will bite. I wonder if I mare has picked up on her distrust of people. The kicking out was pure "get away from me I want to go back to my friend!" Which after having her for 7 years so so uncharacteristic of her.

Time will tell now .... The wheels are in motion, winter feild plan is being set, and while she may have a fence line, I can't see her being in with another horse, I don't want her to become dangerous which she does when she has a best buddy

Tomorrow I plan on a grooming session as an apology of sorts, and I will try some games again with her in the lunge arena (this time with a schooling whip for my own protection) so try to show her I can be her friend too and that I'm to be the leader not her. Battle of wills.


Keep doing what you are doing, forget the rewards and niceties until she behaves how you want her to, horses don't ask each other to move out of the way - they demand it. This is exactly what she is trying to do with you. She has realised that the stable crap she was doing isn't working and is now trying something different. Keep persevering it will get better :-)

Been there done it numerous times and occasionally a reminder is needed.

Bring her in the way you have been, do everything as matter as fact as you can, even if you don't feel in charge stand tall when walking her with your shoulders back and head held high, don't stroll around places being lackadaisical and letting her get distracted you are going somewhere and she has to go. You should have her full attention as she must think she needs to keep up and see what is next - she will notice all these slight differences.

Ask her to move or do something, if she does it- a nice word and a scratch, if she doesn't respond use the back up for example ask firmly again, a nice word and then carry on like nothing has happened.

If she acts out like that the safest place is in the lunging ring and as you did - make her run. Bring her back to you and do whatever you did that made her act out and put more pressure on her by adding something else into the equation. Gauge her reaction and respond appropriately.

If she acts out outside of this backing her up is a good way of asserting your authority without too much negativity. Most horses are not a fan of being made take a step or two backwards.

Forget the feed as a reward. This should be kept for her stable / field only as her dinner after riding. She should respect you not act a certain way to get feed. That's not respect that is doing something for her own benefit. And as for her buddy - unless she has been badly treated that is not distrust that is a horse that has learnt to dominate. I have a mare like this who can gauge within a split second who she can take the piss out of and I tell noone to get in the field with her. Put a headcollar on her and she is anyone's though, she loves to work thankfully.

Jen Pigs Fly

Today I've noticed an improvement. She's easier to lead both into the yard and back out to the feild and she's quieter and shock she actually walked briskly up to me when called (now that could be to get back to buddy but whatever!)

She got a thorough groom as normal, she actually relaxed and started licking her lick which was ignored the past few months as she was very fixated on going back out.

Worked in the lunge arena, she didn't even try to turn her bum, she got a light lunge doing her cues and she was good.

I then left the arena the same as yesterday, and approached the exact same way, she turned towards me and walked up to me.

Going back out her buddy started screaming and such again, my mare trotted up, neighed a bit but then went for a much. Helped someone else put their horse out so I could see how she was when she couldn't see me. Munching grass. Buddy going mental!

Little steps, in around a weeks time she'll be good. Her feet are very bad so not attempting to ride as she's tripping. I will put the saddle onto her possibly tomorrow to show her that it's ok and all is good.

I led her without a single word to her, she followed meekly. It's like she knows she did wrong yesterday. Talked to her as usual while grooming which she enjoyed for the first time in weeks