Beef Data Genomics Programme (2015-2020)

tomieen jones

ellewood wrote: »

True, hairs easier and work just as well, But the cynic in me would say that with hairs tho that the tag company dosen't get a twist of our E90.00/head

they announced information meetings locally next month to answer questions
this will be one I'll be asking

Farrell

ellewood wrote: »

True, hairs easier and work just as well, But the cynic in me would say that with hairs tho that the tag company dosen't get a twist of our E90.00/head

We all tag, a sample is sent away for (BVD) testing, why can't agencies share data & work together to mean less work & expense for us poor farming folk

skoger

MollyRo wrote: »

Weaning calves at the moment. Where do I record the weaning weights on icbf?

Record Events menu -> Live weight

MollyRo wrote: »

Also I can't find where to record the docility on the site. Does it have to be by paperwork?

Services Menu -> Beef Data & Genomics Programme -> under calf Information on left hand side

Bellview

Farrell wrote: »

We all tag, a sample is sent away for (BVD) testing, why can't agencies share data & work together to mean less work & expense for us poor farming folk

that would involve common sense...does not happen a lot in semi states/ gov agencies

The man in red and black

Charliebull wrote: »

WTF are ya using a vice grips for, its a hair sample not the whole tail;)

i did mine last year that way in the field, bull included, up behind them grab the end of the tail and get a few hairs, far less hassle on man and beast

I don't know the brother said he couldn't get the roots out without the vicegrips. Even the ICBF BDGP fliers suggest using a pliers. I was surprised, I reckon I could pull out a few hairs especially in crush but apparently this one wasn't giving them up easily

Does anyone know if they actually gave farmers information on the cows they genotyped on last years Beef Genomics Scheme or will it not be made available?

Bullocks

The man in red and black wrote: »

I don't know the brother said he couldn't get the roots out without the vicegrips. Even the ICBF BDGP fliers suggest using a pliers. I was surprised, I reckon I could pull out a few hairs especially in crush but apparently this one wasn't giving them up easily

Does anyone know if they actually gave farmers information on the cows they genotyped on last years Beef Genomics Scheme or will it not be made available?

We definitely got no information back from it last year and they came out and weighed calves after we tagged and she said we would have all the info from the weighing and genomic testing posted out within a few weeks . Never got anything back until a few weeks ago got another letter saying they wanted to weigh a few more calves . I rang them up and cancelled it , I have enough for doing without taking time out to herd a few calves up the crush for no thanks .

jd06

I was tagging this evening made a bo bo
I put the wrong tag in a cow
Eg.It was tag 55 and u put it in cow155
What should I do?

tanko

jd06 wrote: »

I was tagging this evening made a bo bo
I put the wrong tag in a cow
Eg.It was tag 55 and u put it in cow155
What should I do?

I think if you let them know what happened they just put the sample down to the cow you tagged and you don't have to tag the other one this year.

ruben37

With ten a day doping out of this farce of a scheme, are ye guys mad or just hungry for money! Being honest if they had asked me to participate on what I would call a pilot scheme for lets say five years to assess data on improving the gene pool in Ireland. I would have said yes no problem as a pedigree breeder I already submit majority of information required. But no they want to add service fees, penalties and publish a totally flawed, what I would call a score board, that has caused havoc for many breeders/suckler farmers all over Ireland.

blue5000

ruben37 wrote: »

With ten a day doping out of this farce of a scheme, are ye guys mad or just hungry for money! Being honest if they had asked me to participate on what I would call a pilot scheme for lets say five years to assess data on improving the gene pool in Ireland. I would have said yes no problem as a pedigree breeder I already submit majority of information required. But no they want to add service fees, penalties and publish a totally flawed, what I would call a score board, that has caused havoc for many breeders/suckler farmers all over Ireland.

It's a bit like the sticker 'you don't have to be mad to work here, but if you are it would be a big help'

The 5 star cows are producing calves that are more profitable than 1 star cows, so ya we are hungry for money I suppose.

ruben37

blue5000 wrote: »

It's a bit like the sticker 'you don't have to be mad to work here, but if you are it would be a big help'

The 5 star cows are producing calves that are more profitable than 1 star cows, so ya we are hungry for money I suppose.

Please produce the stats to back up your claim above? Id like to see them if you have them!!!

This out fit, IE the ICBF are claiming our best producing pedigree cows are 2,3 stars and the worst of them is 4 star. Now I am very pissed off, I have taken hits of a monkey in monetary terms for cows in calf of late due the the stats provided by the ICBF.

Now the average calving interval for all cows in the herd, in lay man terms is a calf every year bar one of the so called 4 star cows she it a dude and for the factory. I have to prid her this year and last!. The 2 and 3 star cows a produce good calves every year and all well over the average wean weights, but yet them lot tell me we breed to terminal and have no milk a ******* joke.

In all honesty they are talking bull Dung and they wish to do dam all about it, it is flawed bigtime. I have all wean weights going back 15 years but yet weeks later, I am still awaiting an answer if I can correct the misinformation that they have published.

mattP

Will this genotyping actually do any good/change anything?
I have a great charolais bull, great quality calves, none needed assistance so far (this is his second season) and like the father very docile! No need to use a stick with him, put out your hands in front of him and he'll walk in the opposite direction Hes down as a one star animal, his sire isnt marked which doesn't help either, I suppose
On the other hand I have a runtish poly bull calf, just got him to throw under a cow that had too much milk. "Five stars". I'll be damned before he sires anything! He'll be castrated before he knows it :P

blue5000

Ruben have a look here

http://www.icbf.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Tully-Slides-Euro-Stars.pdf

Page 21

patsy_mccabe

ruben37 wrote: »

Please produce the stats to back up your claim above? Id like to see them if you have them!!!

This out fit, IE the ICBF are claiming our best producing pedigree cows are 2,3 stars and the worst of them is 4 star. Now I am very pissed off, I have taken hits of a monkey in monetary terms for cows in calf of late due the the stats provided by the ICBF.

Now the average calving interval for all cows in the herd, in lay man terms is a calf every year bar one of the so called 4 star cows she it a dude and for the factory. I have to prid her this year and last!. The 2 and 3 star cows a produce good calves every year and all well over the average wean weights, but yet them lot tell me we breed to terminal and have no milk a ******* joke.

In all honesty they are talking bull Dung and they wish to do dam all about it, it is flawed bigtime. I have all wean weights going back 15 years but yet weeks later, I am still awaiting an answer if I can correct the misinformation that they have published.

Ruben, When ICBF apply stars to your cows, they are looking, not just at your cows but, also to all relative of your cows on other farms.
No offence, but anyone could increase weanling weights on their own farm by simply feeding more meal. That's why ICBF don't put much faith into data coming from just one farm. That's why the AI bulls, used on many different farms, have such high reliability figures.

Remember when the EBI figures first came out for Dairy cattle. There were lots of breeders up in arms when their high yielding cows were getting such low EBI figures. Now everyone takes them as part of the course. Given time, the same will happen for the Beef Stars figures. Rant over.

poor farmer

mattP wrote: »

Will this genotyping actually do any good/change anything?
I have a great charolais bull, great quality calves, none needed assistance so far (this is his second season) and like the father very docile! No need to use a stick with him, put out your hands in front of him and he'll walk in the opposite direction Hes down as a one star animal, his sire isnt marked which doesn't help either, I suppose
On the other hand I have a runtish poly bull calf, just got him to throw under a cow that had too much milk. "Five stars". I'll be damned before he sires anything! He'll be castrated before he knows it :P

Don't get too too friendly with that quiet bull. That's the lad that would get you when you least expect.

ruben37

blue5000 wrote: »

Ruben have a look here

Page 21

Blue I had to remove your little booklet as I do not have the permissions to post links yet. If your correct, you might explain why there are 10 a day dropping out of the Beef Data and Genomics Program? By the way among those opting out are some of the top suckler herds in Ireland.

Many of the stars are off the wall for a very high percentage of breeders pedigree and others. They have no option but to opt out as they can not correct the misinformation they the ICBF have published.

The Six information meetings that are being rolled out by the Department of Agriculture in a bid to stem the exit of farmers will be interesting. I hope to attend a few in different regions to try and get a general consensus of the observations for and against before making my next move.

tanko

ruben37 wrote: »

With ten a day doping out of this farce of a scheme, are ye guys mad or just hungry for money! Being honest if they had asked me to participate on what I would call a pilot scheme for lets say five years to assess data on improving the gene pool in Ireland. I would have said yes no problem as a pedigree breeder I already submit majority of information required. But no they want to add service fees, penalties and publish a totally flawed, what I would call a score board, that has caused havoc for many breeders/suckler farmers all over Ireland.

If pedigree breeders are so unhappy with ICBF figures for their cattle why have the breed societies not stopped displaying icbf data at their sales like they threatened to do if changes weren't made to the way figures are calculated?

blue5000

ruben37 wrote: »

Blue I had to remove your little booklet as I do not have the permissions to post links yet. If your correct, you might explain why there are 10 a day dropping out of the Beef Data and Genomics Program? By the way among those opting out are some of the top suckler herds in Ireland.

Many of the stars are off the wall for a very high percentage of breeders pedigree and others. They have no option but to opt out as they can not correct the misinformation they the ICBF have published.

The Six information meetings that are being rolled out by the Department of Agriculture in a bid to stem the exit of farmers will be interesting. I hope to attend a few in different regions to try and get a general consensus of the observations for and against before making my next move.

I've no idea why, maybe they are all going into dairying. Another possibility is 5 yrs is a long time if you are getting on in years.

I don't know what pedigree breeders got up to in the past, maybe they're scared of being found out.

I'm sticking with it for now, did the tagging last week, as far as I can see it's a win win situation for suckler farmers, improve the herd and get paid to do it.

farawaygrass

I have a question maybe ye can answer. I bought a 4 star bull this summer, before the scheme started as such. There is one line I read that is bothering me in the scheme. It says something along the lines of "by the last year of the scheme a 4 or 5 star bull has to be bought in the timeframe of the scheme itself". Anyone know anything about this?

annubis

farawaygrass wrote: »

I have a question maybe ye can answer. I bought a 4 star bull this summer, before the scheme started as such. There is one line I read that is bothering me in the scheme. It says something along the lines of "by the last year of the scheme a 4 or 5 star bull has to be bought in the timeframe of the scheme itself". Anyone know anything about this?

when you got your eurostar report it should tell you if your bull is eligible or not, my bull was bought back in 2010 but report says he is eligible so i guess thats all thats needed ?

ruben37

blue5000 wrote: »

I've no idea why, maybe they are all going into dairying. Another possibility is 5 yrs is a long time if you are getting on in years

I don't know what pedigree breeders got up to in the past, maybe they're scared of being found out.

I'm sticking with it for now, did the tagging last week, as far as I can see it's a win win situation for suckler farmers, improve the herd and get paid to do it.

Maybe they're scared of being found out, strange statement/accusation that? Care to explain or detail it Blue?

As for your comments in reference to those dropping out of the program, did you just pull both of them from your nether region.

Bellview

tanko wrote: »

If pedigree breeders are so unhappy with ICBF figures for their cattle why have the breed societies not stopped displaying icbf data at their sales like they threatened to do if changes weren't made to the way figures are calculated?

I believe a few soc's have stated they will remove the ICBF stat's from sales cat's lets see if they follow through on their threat now

patsy_mccabe

I think this scheme should be encouraging farmers to use the star ratings more so than making it compulsory for them.
Any new bulls that come into the country will start off with poor star ratings so nobody is going to use them. That was the big complaint that the breed societies have. You end up with a few bulls being heavily used and a serious narrowing of the gene pool.

Bleating Lamb

Who do you contact to 'confirm' you are not going doing the scheme?

As of yet have not received the tags for scheme but if not taking part can these just be returned....or do you have to 'pay for' them first??

Really appreciate a reply from someone who has successfully exited the scheme.

croot

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I think this scheme should be encouraging farmers to use the star ratings more so than making it compulsory for them.
Any new bulls that come into the country will start off with poor star ratings so nobody is going to use them. That was the big complaint that the breed societies have. You end up with a few bulls being heavily used and a serious narrowing of the gene pool.

I agree with this. Maybe the scheme should have been a basic payment on all cows but more for a 4* and 5*. Farmers would be encouraged to use better genetics rather than forced. The unreliability of the data wouldn't be such a problem then and farmers would be free to try new bloodline without fearing the inevitable drop in stars.

I'm still undecided even though I meet the 2020 targets already. My issue is committing to this for 6 years when the ars€ could fall out of the weanling market and leave you trapped in a loss making enterprise. I love

annubis

Bleating Lamb wrote: »

Who do you contact to 'confirm' you are not going doing the scheme?

As of yet have not received the tags for scheme but if not taking part can these just be returned....or do you have to 'pay for' them first??

Really appreciate a reply from someone who has successfully exited the scheme.

i joined initially and then exited and then re joined... dont ask!
you just send your request in writing to suckler beef schemes, portlaoise etc
dont know about tags

croot

croot wrote: »

I agree with this. Maybe the scheme should have been a basic payment on all cows but more for a 4* and 5*. Farmers would be encouraged to use better genetics rather than forced. The unreliability of the data wouldn't be such a problem then and farmers would be free to try new bloodline without fearing the inevitable drop in stars.

I'm still undecided even though I meet the 2020 targets already. My issue is committing to this for 6 years when the ars€ could fall out of the weanling market and leave you trapped in a loss making enterprise. I love

Christ boards would drive you daft these days. Cant edit and posts seem to post themselves as you write them.......


Anyway to finish what I was saying I love breeding good cattle but not for free.

mattP

farawaygrass wrote:

I have a question maybe ye can answer. I bought a 4 star bull this summer, before the scheme started as such. There is one line I read that is bothering me in the scheme. It says something along the lines of "by the last year of the scheme a 4 or 5 star bull has to be bought in the timeframe of the scheme itself". Anyone know anything about this?

Not one hundred percent sure I believe that you do have to get a new bull in 2019. I dunno though. Couldn't you sell him to someone else and buy him back?:P depends how strict they are...

mattP

patsy_mccabe wrote:

I think this scheme should be encouraging farmers to use the star ratings more so than making it compulsory for them.

It would be handy if they could be displayed on the board at the mart, only if the seller agrees I suppose. There are some great animals marked very low, and seeing "1/2 star" would turn you off a bit

blue5000

ruben37 wrote: »

Maybe they're scared of being found out, strange statement/accusation that? Care to explain or detail it Blue?

As for your comments in reference to those dropping out of the program, did you just pull both of them from your nether region.

What sort of cattle do you breed?

tanko

Dozer1 wrote: »

for anyone who isn't on ICBF and records there animal event stuff on the Dept agfood site I rang the dept yesterday and they said they hope to have the surveys for the genomics scheme up at the end of October.

Some joke it wasn't ready to go much quicker, its pretty much a copy of what they had for the last few schemes

Info for Genomics scheme can be put on agfood.ie now.

ruben37

We breed a closed herd of pedigree charolais cattle, the family have been breeding them since the late sixty's. Both generations have been fairly successful to date with the same line at both local and national level, held a few records for highest priced bulls in two regions shortest duration being 4 years and longest being 10 years. Third generation will register his fist calf in December this year with the Charolais society. By the way no big operation here, over the years max 12 cows minimum being 8. All AI bulls bar one, she was sent of to a local stock bull for a last chance, she was a twin to another female she went in calf but aborted at 6 months and ended up in the freezer at home.

Now please consider answering my previous question regarding your accusation placed against pedigree breeders? What would pedigree breeders be scared of if running a legitimate herd.

Bellview

mattP wrote: »

Not one hundred percent sure I believe that you do have to get a new bull in 2019. I dunno though. Couldn't you sell him to someone else and buy him back?:P depends how strict they are...

you could have a commercial bull that is 5 stars running around the yard and he will meet the criteria...using him could be a different story though

LivInt20

ruben37 wrote: »

We breed a closed herd of pedigree charolais cattle, the family have been breeding them since the late sixty's. Both generations have been fairly successful to date with the same line at both local and national level, held a few records for highest priced bulls in two regions shortest duration being 4 years and longest being 10 years. Third generation will register his fist calf in December this year with the Charolais society. By the way no big operation here, over the years max 12 cows minimum being 8. All AI bulls bar one, she was sent of to a local stock bull for a last chance, she was a twin to another female she went in calf but aborted at 6 months and ended up in the freezer at home.

Now please consider answering my previous question regarding your accusation placed against pedigree breeders? What would pedigree breeders be scared of if running a legitimate herd.

With all due respect Ruben the BDGP is not being aimed at Pedigree Charolais Breeders.

The scheme is aimed at improving the national suckler herd.

The Charolais breed is more a terminal breed for producing heavy carcasses rather than breeding suckler cows that will be easy calving, plenty of milk and fertile.

Canaryblue

LivInt20 wrote: »

With all due respect Ruben the BDGP is not being aimed at Pedigree Charolais Breeders.

The scheme is aimed at improving the national suckler herd.

The Charolais breed is more a terminal breed for producing heavy carcasses rather than breeding suckler cows that will be easy calving, plenty of milk and fertile.

See the thing is yes the charolais breed is a terminal breed but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of suckler cows up and down the country bred ofF charolais bulls. So if the pedigree charolais breeders (I myself am one) can improve the maternal traits of their herd then it will have a knock on effect to improving the suckler herd.

Of the 17 bull calves we've had born in 2015, 16 of them qualify for the BDGP scheme. With some of them being 4 and 5 stars for replacement ACROSS THE BREEDS!

Charliebull

Canaryblue wrote: »

See the thing is yes the charolais breed is a terminal breed but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of suckler cows up and down the country bred ofF charolais bulls. So if the pedigree charolais breeders (I myself am one) can improve the maternal traits of their herd then it will have a knock on effect to improving the suckler herd.

Of the 17 bull calves we've had born in 2015, 16 of them qualify for the BDGP scheme. With some of them being 4 and 5 stars for replacement ACROSS THE BREEDS!

canary, do you mind me asking what sires you used to achieve these stars

Charliebull

i am a little confustered

have two 5 star cows with 2 no heifer calves at foot, i had marked both for keeping, both to the same CH Stock Bull, who was a 4 star,

1 calf is 4 star and 1 calf is 3 star, how does that work

Canaryblue

Charliebull wrote: »

canary, do you mind me asking what sires you used to achieve these stars

A lot of Blelack Digger, we're big fans of him. Some Alwent Goldbar, Goldstar Echo and Thrunton Flyingscotsman. The goldstar echos are pure terminal but they're really classy animals. Flyingscotsman has poor stars but the two calves we have off him look terrific, don't think we'll use him again unless his stars come up though.

patsy_mccabe

Canaryblue wrote: »

.... The goldstar echos are pure terminal but they're really classy animals......

I rememebr asking about Goldstar Echo on here before and a few said he was only average. Surprised at the time, as his figures are very good and great pedigree to match.

Farrell

Canaryblue wrote: »

A lot of Blelack Digger, we're big fans of him. Some Alwent Goldbar, Goldstar Echo and Thrunton Flyingscotsman. The goldstar echos are pure terminal but they're really classy animals. Flyingscotsman has poor stars but the two calves we have off him look terrific, don't think we'll use him again unless his stars come up though.

What's the Goldbar calves like, he's being pushed big time, as NCBC & Eurogene have him.
Think we commercial suckler farmers will soon have to do more homework on the Bulls we use, especially if keeping the off-spring

blue5000

ruben37 wrote: »

We breed a closed herd of pedigree charolais cattle, the family have been breeding them since the late sixty's. Both generations have been fairly successful to date with the same line at both local and national level, held a few records for highest priced bulls in two regions shortest duration being 4 years and longest being 10 years. Third generation will register his fist calf in December this year with the Charolais society. By the way no big operation here, over the years max 12 cows minimum being 8. All AI bulls bar one, she was sent of to a local stock bull for a last chance, she was a twin to another female she went in calf but aborted at 6 months and ended up in the freezer at home.

Now please consider answering my previous question regarding your accusation placed against pedigree breeders? What would pedigree breeders be scared of if running a legitimate herd.

Nothing. But there are rumours of lads going to visit pedigree breeders' yards to buy a beef bull privately and seeing bull calves being suckled on dairy cows.

This would sort of distort the weight gain of the calf, and the ability of the bull's mother to produce milk. I don't have to spell it out to you that daughters of the bull calf (after being reared on a dairy cow) might not be as good to produce milk as the bull's figures would suggest.

If this went on for several generations on the breeder's farm the bulls figures for milk would be............ bullsh1t.

Mad4simmental

Charliebull wrote: »

i am a little confustered

have two 5 star cows with 2 no heifer calves at foot, i had marked both for keeping, both to the same CH Stock Bull, who was a 4 star,

1 calf is 4 star and 1 calf is 3 star, how does that work

Fcuk the stars, if you like them and their dams have milk keep them. For all you know next year they could move five star.

ruben37

blue5000 wrote: »

Nothing. But there are rumours of lads going to visit pedigree breeders' yards to buy a beef bull privately and seeing bull calves being suckled on dairy cows.

This would sort of distort the weight gain of the calf, and the ability of the bull's mother to produce milk. I don't have to spell it out to you that daughters of the bull calf (after being reared on a dairy cow) might not be as good to produce milk as the bull's figures would suggest.

If this went on for several generations on the breeder's farm the bulls figures for milk would be............ bullsh1t.

Mmmm rumors IE pub dribble/dung, so you have never seen this yourself? thought as much. I have been in many pedigree yards over the years and have yet to see this happening. To me this is just the big green eyed monster talking majority of the time, they can not produce quality stock so they run down the man that does!

Charliebull

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Fcuk the stars, if you like them and their dams have milk keep them. For all you know next year they could move five star.

Lol, a man after me own heart, fully intend too

blue5000

ruben37 wrote: »

Mmmm rumors IE pub dribble/dung, so you have never seen this yourself? thought as much. I have been in many pedigree yards over the years and have yet to see this happening. To me this is just the big green eyed monster talking majority of the time, they can not produce quality stock so they run down the man that does!

I wouldn't have been ever in a charolais breeder's yard to buy a bull and I don't think I ever will either.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73637700

50HX

there are many questions to be answered with this scheme


for those that are in 2 minds why not join anyway, lock away the money you recieve and after 2/3 years if it's not for you return your payment... nothing majorly lost and a nice few quid potentially to be gained if you decide to stay in it

i see this scheme settling down with regards to ratings etc, there are a lot of questions at the moment and answers are & wil not be available to all of them straight away.

j have joined and just returned the tags.
based on the work that's required in return for the payment...... where else can that kinda cash be got from suckler farming??

croot

ruben37 wrote: »

Mmmm rumors IE pub dribble/dung, so you have never seen this yourself? thought as much. I have been in many pedigree yards over the years and have yet to see this happening. To me this is just the big green eyed monster talking majority of the time, they can not produce quality stock so they run down the man that does!

When I was doing the green cert a good few years ago we visited a prize winning charlaois breeder and he was using older fresians cows bought from a local dairy farmer. Teagasc guy and the breeder openly recommended the practice.

Also see a pedigree lim breeder a few miles from me with three or four fresian cows with his calves. He's in the same discussion group as me so must ask him is he just fattening them.

My brother in law breeds a few pedigree charlaois and he enters them into the Christmas cracker that used to be in carrick on Shannon but now in Elphin. If I remember right the bull calves have to be over 650 kgs at a year old to get entered. He pretty much force feeds them for the year to achieve this. How can any growth figures be trusted with stuff like this going on.

ruben37

blue5000 wrote: »

I wouldn't have been ever in a charolais breeder's yard to buy a bull and I don't think I ever will either.

Well sure you loss is another man gain! Have to say never had a dairy breed on the farm, been lucky with milk and plenty of it in the line we breed this along with good grass goes long way. We would also feed a crunch to cover rumen development, minerals and vitamins. The odd one that's not up to scratch in milk and fertility are culled, false economy keeping problem cattle.

The man in red and black

croot wrote: »

If I remember right the bull calves have to be over 650 kgs at a year old to get entered. He pretty much force feeds them for the year to achieve this. How can any growth figures be trusted with stuff like this going on.

Surely the 650kg at 12 months is a typo is it? I didn't think that would be possible but if it was then that is outrageous pumping up! :eek:

I contacted ICBF to see what the craic was with getting feedback on the data collected last year, this was their response:

"We should be able to make available fully evaluated genomics reports on all females genotyped through last year’s and this year’s beef genomics scheme by next April most likely. We could not complete this till now as we were trying to build up our reference population DNA data bank till now. This round of tags we will receive in from farmers will help us complete this."

Seems fair enough, would love to have some data now for curiosity's sake but I'd rather have more accurate data next year than nonsense now and it is completely revised next year and the schemes lose credibility!

Bellview

croot wrote: »

When I was doing the green cert a good few years ago we visited a prize winning charlaois breeder and he was using older fresians cows bought from a local dairy farmer. Teagasc guy and the breeder openly recommended the practice.

Also see a pedigree lim breeder a few miles from me with three or four fresian cows with his calves. He's in the same discussion group as me so must ask him is he just fattening them.

My brother in law breeds a few pedigree charlaois and he enters them into the Christmas cracker that used to be in carrick on Shannon but now in Elphin. If I remember right the bull calves have to be over 650 kgs at a year old to get entered. He pretty much force feeds them for the year to achieve this. How can any growth figures be trusted with stuff like this going on.

what you say above is correct but on balance its not the majority of Pedigree breeders that go this road... its the minority who do a lot of showing. I can name (but I won't) a few angus & Char breeders who
have dairy cows to help their calves along... there was one lad who uses jersey & had a step for the cow... These are the calves that we see in the journal from the shows during in summer. Unfortunately though some of these calves finish up in AI which don't help the ordinary man.

One good rule introduced this year by the Irish angus for their all Ireland in Strokestown and the Aldi bull class was that any calf gaining more than 1.7kg a day (ICBF guideline for angus) was excluded... Maybe a coincidence but some the breeders known for messing with dates did not show there year or were thrown out as calves over weight..