Beef Data Genomics Programme (2015-2020)

Kovu

Kovu wrote: »

Trying to figure that out myself, got almost €70 taken off us for it.

WTF, had just typed that and got a text saying another payment in. Beef Genomics scheme, carried over €40 from this time last year. Was it worth their while holding it for that long!

The man in red and black

Just looking at the latest report and trying to work out a system to aid picking replacements. First time in a few years we have had that luxury after trying to rebuild numbers rightly or wrongly.

Interested to know what most people are doing with 3 star cows. We have some 3 star 2nd and 3rd calvers which are out of 4 and 5 star cows. Would you think their stars may continue to rise and so their heifer calves are worth keeping? Anyone know at what point a cows own stars are likely to stop changing? Presumably still some room to increase in a 2nd calver but a 5-6 time lady is not going to change at that point am I right?

We had a lower number of animals in the reference year so there will be some scope for keeping animals that look very good to the eye even if they are only 2 stars. I don't fully trust the stars yet. Definitely a help but for the borderline ones if they looked great we'd keep them for now.

croot

The man in red and black wrote: »

Would you think their stars may continue to rise and so their heifer calves are worth keeping? Anyone know at what point a cows own stars are likely to stop changing? Presumably still some room to increase in a 2nd calver but a 5-6 time lady is not going to change at that point am I right?

I don't think the age of the animal matters. As they get more data the ratings will change either for good or bad. I have a 10 year old cow that went to 5* on the last release. I also have 4 of her daughters in the herd and three of them rose because of it. Fourth one is out of KIB so even if she has triplets that are each weaned at 600kgs every year she won't rise much.

In my opinion keeping on potential replacements is worth the chance. You won't need to have all your cows 5* and if those borderline ones go on to produce a good calf its worth it.

blue5000

I think you'd have to use a very strong maternal bull on them, especially for whatever trait is bringing them down. It's most likely milk or calving interval. Also if you weigh the weanlings, and get the weights into ICBF this will give more info. Do you use ai?

jfh

i'm buying calves of a dairy farmer, bull is stock bull with 4 stars so i take it the calves should turn out to be 4/5 star cows down the line?
thanks for input

tanko

jfh wrote: »

i'm buying calves of a dairy farmer, bull is stock bull with 4 stars so i take it the calves should turn out to be 4/5 star cows down the line?
thanks for input

Probably, but I wouldn't assume anything without checking their figures.
A neighbour of mine has Holstein cows and a two star maternal Limousin bull (a son of Rocky), the heifers of this cross only have two stars on the maternal index.

High bike

tanko wrote: »

Probably, but I wouldn't assume anything without checking their figures.
A neighbour of mine has Holstein cows and a two star maternal Limousin bull (a son of Rocky), the heifers of this cross only have two stars on the maternal index.[/QUOTE surely that's not right,assuming his cows are4or5 star from milk and calving interval the calves should be at least 3 star?

tanko

High bike wrote: »

tanko wrote: »

Probably, but I wouldn't assume anything without checking their figures.
A neighbour of mine has Holstein cows and a two star maternal Limousin bull (a son of Rocky), the heifers of this cross only have two stars on the maternal index.[/QUOTE surely that's not right,assuming his cows are4or5 star from milk and calving interval the calves should be at least 3 star?

I saw it on his ICBF profile and couldn't believe it myself, he has a 5* maternal Angus bull for his Holstein heifers and the heifers off them were 5*.
Anyone buying replacement heifers of any breed to qualify for the BDGP would need to be checking their figures and not making assumptions based on their breeding.

High bike

tanko wrote: »

High bike wrote: »

I saw it on his ICBF profile and couldn't believe it myself, he has a 5* maternal Angus bull for his Holstein heifers and the heifers off them were 5*.
Anyone buying replacement heifers of any breed to qualify for the BDGP would need to be checking their figures and not making assumptions based on their breeding.

its actually impossible to make sense of it,just looked up my own euro star report and got a pleasant surprise as the stars are gone from 3 to 4 star on a couple of heifers I was thinking of moving on,haven't a clue why they went up but I'd like to know at the same time

tanko

High bike wrote: »

tanko wrote: »

its actually impossible to make sense of it,just looked up my own euro star report and got a pleasant surprise as the stars are gone from 3 to 4 star on a couple of heifers I was thinking of moving on,haven't a clue why they went up but I'd like to know at the same time

Maybe the figures of the bull they're off or the cow they're off have improved?
One thing I've noticed about eurostar figures is that they reward cows which rear heavier calves at weaning but these calves aren't always the best animals at slaughter.
I've a tank of a CH cow which hasn't much milk, her calves don't look great at weaning but have all killed out at U grades and heavy weights.
The cow only has two stars. Only a certain percentage of your heifers/cows need to be 4/5 stars for the scheme.
The eurostars are a good guide but they have their flaws too.

High bike

tanko wrote: »

High bike wrote: »

Maybe the figures of the bull they're off or the cow they're off have improved?
One thing I've noticed about eurostar figures is that they reward cows which rear heavier calves at weaning but these calves aren't always the best animals at slaughter.
I've a tank of a CH cow which hasn't much milk, her calves don't look great at weaning but have all killed out at U grades and heavy weights.
The cow only has two stars. Only a certain percentage of your heifers/cows need to be 4/5 stars for the scheme.
The eurostars are a good guide but they have their flaws too.

Totally agree with you there tanko it's only a guide you'd want to be using your own judgement too,Have an Angus x cow here who rears 2 calves every year,her last 3 calves killed u grade and she has no stars as no sire recorded.Im thinking of culling her lol

The man in red and black

blue5000 wrote: »

I think you'd have to use a very strong maternal bull on them, especially for whatever trait is bringing them down. It's most likely milk or calving interval. Also if you weigh the weanlings, and get the weights into ICBF this will give more info. Do you use ai?

Currently a new Ch stock bull being run but trying to get a bit of AI in this year if can get away with it at all. I see what you are getting at balancing milk etc with as high a maternal bull as can find. The numbers were low for the reference so I think we have enough room to play around. The biggest thing I want to fix is that currently the majority of the 4 and 5 star cows are quite old and the replacements coming through are 2-3 stars. I would be worried about what will happen when cull all the old ones if their daughters don't bump up to 4 stars. Think I will try get the top ones AI'd this year to strong maternal bulls possibly with sexed semen. Anyone recommend good maternal Charolaois bulls with sexed heifer semen available?:)

Bellview

High bike wrote: »

tanko wrote: »

its actually impossible to make sense of it,just looked up my own euro star report and got a pleasant surprise as the stars are gone from 3 to 4 star on a couple of heifers I was thinking of moving on,haven't a clue why they went up but I'd like to know at the same time

I wouldn't use the ICBF report as a guide to culling as the reliability is so low. I have one cow who ratings are falling through the floor... but she will only leave the yard when she is done, throws a great calf every year.. but given icbf stars are so volatile and inconsistent she may turn into a 5 star some time in the future.. make decision on what you know the cattle breed ie grading etc and the look at the star report after you make your herdsman decision first

since the scheme is so screwed up with rubbish data & estimates... lucky dip excel files etc, I'm a believer the percentages kinda work out as I have a few 5 star ladies that are average but they make the stats add up

will be interesting if someone or some group take a legal case on this scheme over the next few years... as folks using 5 stars bulls that get regarded to 2 star... resulting in farmer getting penalised as the bulls daughters won't hit the 4+ star

Sheep breeder

quick question, how are you getting the up to date ratings on your cows from icbf.

joeyboy12345

Lads i bought a springer in the mart,cow has calved. I have no idea to what bull. She is only 1 star so not worried about star rating of the calf. My question is must all calves sire details be registered and if i dont will this hold up next years payment?

Kovu

joeyboy12345 wrote: »

Lads i bought a springer in the mart,cow has calved. I have no idea to what bull. She is only 1 star so not worried about star rating of the calf. My question is must all calves sire details be registered and if i dont will this hold up next years payment?

Ring the mart and ask if it was announced as stock bull or AI. They should have the sheets from the sale and all springers/cows and calves have info written beside them on the sheets. If nothing there but something saying stock bull, the mart can probably get in touch with the seller for you.
If that fails, I'd ring icbf and say that you bought an incalf animal off this man (look at cows card) and if you get a competent person on the phone, they can probably match details to a regd stock bull.

High bike

Sheep breeder wrote: »

quick question, how are you getting the up to date ratings on your cows from icbf.

go into your icbf acc and go to suckler cow reports,mine was updated on17/2/16

High bike

I know you have to keep calves for 5mts but what I want to know is do you have to keep all calves or just enough to cover the reference year or is it ones with stars that qualify for the bdg scheme?????Has no one the answer to this?????

MeheeHohee

Anyone else having trouble generating a BDGP stars report on the ICBF website? Went to print one earlier and the option is gone. Have done it many times previously.

mikeoh

Has anyone got the results back of the DNA genotype we did as part of the scheme..,.

blue5000

mikeoh wrote: »

Has anyone got the results back of the DNA genotype we did as part of the scheme..,.

No, I reckon we'll have to get Abby from NCIS to investigate.;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-bNjV9hU8Q

mikeoh

If the farmer took this long to submit the samples they would be penalized money & kicked off the scheme.....but when its the other way around no rules apply!!!!!

skoger

Bellview wrote: »

I wouldn't use the ICBF report as a guide to culling as the reliability is so low. I have one cow who ratings are falling through the floor... but she will only leave the yard when she is done, throws a great calf every year.. but given icbf stars are so volatile and inconsistent she may turn into a 5 star some time in the future.. make decision on what you know the cattle breed ie grading etc and the look at the star report after you make your herdsman decision first

Serious question...Do you have to get the jack or vet out to this cow? Only asking cause I had a cow that left a great calf every year but only had a 2* rating. When I looked at her history I had to help her twice and get the vet out another time.

will be interesting if someone or some group take a legal case on this scheme over the next few years... as folks using 5 stars bulls that get regarded to 2 star... resulting in farmer getting penalised as the bulls daughters won't hit the 4+ star

I hope somebody does. I have a couple of heifers out of APZ who was a 5* bull when I used him but now he's dropped completely. These heifers are only 1 and 2 stars now when they're ready for breeding. I'll be lucky if I get a qualifying calf out of them.

joeyboy12345 wrote: »

Lads i bought a springer in the mart,cow has calved. I have no idea to what bull. She is only 1 star so not worried about star rating of the calf. My question is must all calves sire details be registered and if i dont will this hold up next years payment?

Just mark down the sire as unknown. I was in a similar situation and that's what icbf told me to do.

mikeoh wrote: »

Has anyone got the results back of the DNA genotype we did as part of the scheme..,.

On the BDGP page on icbf there's a "View Genotype Details" link that lists all your samples. Some of mine say 'sire verified' and the others 'genotype being evaluated'

case5130

If the cow has no sure details is there any way to fix this as it stands the only giving her 1 star

tanko

case5130 wrote: »

If the cow has no sure details is there any way to fix this as it stands the only giving her 1 star

Can you find out what her sire is?

case5130

tanko wrote: »

Can you find out what her sire is?

No I'm third owner is there any blood test I could do ... She's a belter like

tanko

case5130 wrote: »

No I'm third owner is there any blood test I could do ... She's a belter like

If her sire is an Ai bull, tagging her and genotyping her will tell her sire. If she's off a stock bull it may or may not be revealed.
You could try contacting the farmer who registered the cow, his name and address is on her blue card.

mikeoh

I rang icbf this morning they " hope to have DNA results out to farmers after Easter"...............so that's xmass!!!

Bellview

skoger wrote: »

Serious question...Do you have to get the jack or vet out to this cow? Only asking cause I had a cow that left a great calf every year but only had a 2* rating. When I looked at her history I had to help her twice and get the vet out another time.

I hope somebody does. I have a couple of heifers out of APZ who was a 5* bull when I used him but now he's dropped completely. These heifers are only 1 and 2 stars now when they're ready for breeding. I'll be lucky if I get a qualifying calf out of them.




Just mark down the sire as unknown. I was in a similar situation and that's what icbf told me to do.




On the BDGP page on icbf there's a "View Genotype Details" link that lists all your samples. Some of mine say 'sire verified' and the others 'genotype being evaluated'

never had to get vet out. she is ped angus so nothing slaughtered off her. problem with icbf is too much focus on narrow bloodlines that like the Limo you mentioned the moment their star falls from hero to zero we carry the costs while the excel file that ICBF plays with lives for another day when we are paying... good concept behind scheme but as usual classic semi state piss poor execution..

coolshannagh28

Can anyone explain the logic of jumping suckler farmers through hoops to get peanuts for a scheme which prioritises the type of stock the processors no longer want and then diverting 17 million from the fund to dairy farmers for free.

blue5000

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Can anyone explain the logic of jumping suckler farmers through hoops to get peanuts for a scheme which prioritises the type of stock the processors no longer want and then diverting 17 million from the fund to dairy farmers for free.

No, I can't anyway. But I think coveny has failed the beef sector miserably. I wonder who will the new ag minister be?

Bullocks

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Can anyone explain the logic of jumping suckler farmers through hoops to get peanuts for a scheme which prioritises the type of stock the processors no longer want and then diverting 17 million from the fund to dairy farmers for free.

Mad isn't it ?
Do we know the actual uptake of the scheme yet ? I wonder did many that signed up pull out ? We did anyhow

Base price

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Can anyone explain the logic of jumping suckler farmers through hoops to get peanuts for a scheme which prioritises the type of stock the processors no longer want and then diverting 17 million from the fund to dairy farmers for free.

One of the best posts that I have read on F&F.

reps4

mikeoh wrote: »

I rang icbf this morning they " hope to have DNA results out to farmers after Easter"...............so that's xmass!!!

anybody see any circulars on when results will be published. have a handful of heifers that were tested and confident they will increase so dont want have them sold to find they are eligible..

LivInt20

reps4 wrote: »

anybody see any circulars on when results will be published. have a handful of heifers that were tested and confident they will increase so dont want have them sold to find they are eligible..

See ICBF publication schedule below.

Genomics testing results are to be incorporated into next run at end of April.

http://www.icbf.com/?page_id=208

You can see where your samples are if you go onto herdplus and the genomics section.

50HX

reps4 wrote: »

anybody see any circulars on when results will be published. have a handful of heifers that were tested and confident they will increase so dont want have them sold to find they are eligible..

ring up, give the tag number and they will tell you, alt is sign up to herdplus and see your whole herd online

whelan2

My Dad is going on a course tomorrow for this. Has anyone been on it?

Kovu

whelan2 wrote: »

My Dad is going on a course tomorrow for this. Has anyone been on it?

Going to one Wed, can he get me the notes so I can fall asleep

Buford T. Justice XIX

whelan2 wrote: »

My Dad is going on a course tomorrow for this. Has anyone been on it?

I was at one last Tuesday.

Tbh, it was a struggle to stay awake. Had a section the night before on a heifer and didn't get much sleep and there was nothing in it that he wouldn't know from reading about it in the Journal the last few months.

On a more positive note, he will get a cheque for 166 euro once he signs in twice on the day and he will get his genomic results on all his cattle as well.

whelan2

I think you can nominate someone to go instead of you. I imagine my Dad will be asleep during it too.

Buford T. Justice XIX

whelan2 wrote: »

I think you can nominate someone to go instead of you. I imagine my Dad will be asleep during it too.

They won't get the cheque:eek:

Only the named farmer can collect the cheque.

greenpetrol

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

They won't get the cheque:eek:

Only the named farmer can collect the cheque.

But it will be posted to the named farmer if he sends a representative right?

Buford T. Justice XIX

greenpetrol wrote: »

But it will be posted to the named farmer if he sends a representative right?

Yeah, he will get it in the post after a few days.

kollegeknight

4 star cow(MI of €74) and 4 star bull (MI of €78) had a heifer in 2015 with a MI of €75 making her a 4 star. Same animals have another heifer calf this year that is a 3star heifer with a MI of €71.

I wonder is this correct? Or will this correct itself at next star publishing? or should I contact them? or would this be correct?

bogman_bass

kollegeknight wrote: »

4 star cow(MI of €74) and 4 star bull (MI of €78) had a heifer in 2015 with a MI of €75 making her a 4 star. Same animals have another heifer calf this year that is a 3star heifer with a MI of €71.

I wonder is this correct? Or will this correct itself at next star publishing? or should I contact them? or would this be correct?

The cow and the bulls figures probably had changed in the year

Buford T. Justice XIX

kollegeknight wrote: »

4 star cow(MI of €74) and 4 star bull (MI of €78) had a heifer in 2015 with a MI of €75 making her a 4 star. Same animals have another heifer calf this year that is a 3star heifer with a MI of €71.

I wonder is this correct? Or will this correct itself at next star publishing? or should I contact them? or would this be correct?

Iirc, 74 euro is the 4 star start point.

A 5 star bull on either should get a minimum of a 4 star calf from either female. An 80 euro 4 star bull should leave the 3 star cow with a 4 star calf.

kollegeknight

bogman_bass wrote: »

The cow and the bulls figures probably had changed in the year

Every other star maternal index calculated out right bar the heifer calf of this year from the above mentioned animals.
I've another cow with a maternal index of €68 and when matched with the bull, the calf came out as a 4star

sonnybill

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I was at one last Tuesday.

Tbh, it was a struggle to stay awake. Had a section the night before on a heifer and didn't get much sleep and there was nothing in it that he wouldn't know from reading about it in the Journal the last few months.

On a more positive note, he will get a cheque for 166 euro once he signs in twice on the day and he will get his genomic results on all his cattle as well.

I'm on course this Tuesday .. Will they have my Geno tying results there n then ?

valtra2

Are you informed about what meeting to go to. I heard nothing yet

dh1985

sonnybill wrote: »

I'm on course this Tuesday .. Will they have my Geno tying results there n then ?

Yes