Hawker Hunter crash at Shoreham

Razor44

I see the CAA have grounded all hawker hunters while the investigation takes place.

Irish Steve

To try and pick up one point, I don't think they are expecting a vehicle under the Hunter, the problem is that there were a significant number of spectators in the area where it came down, due to the proximity to the flight line. Some of them were looking for good vantage points for photos or filming, and some may have been seeking to avoid the entry ticket price, so were in a location where they would see the action for free. The other aspect is that the point where it came down was also on the only major access into and out of the airfield, there is no other easy access to the airfield, there is one low bridge under the railway to the south, but it is only usable by cars, vans or any larger vehicle won't fit. That was a major problem on Saturday immediately after the crash, there was no easy way to get over 20,000 people out of the airfield.

There is an unfortunate need to be seen to do something, so the restrictions on the Hunters is understandable, and the high energy flying ban, while unfortunate for the remaining displays this season (like Portrush) is also understandable, hopefully, the AAIB will be able to put some shape on the causes of this crash relatively quickly, and the most severe aspects can be rescinded.

jasT1981

Portrush (as well as Bray and Newcastle) should not be overly affected IMO as the regulations on high energy displays are only when over land. The Portrush airshow (like the other 2) takes place over the sea so will not be bound by the new regulations... or at least that is how it seems going by the statement.

Storm 10

I read somwhere that there is a pub beside the traffic lights and there was a group of people standing there with some marshalls and that appears to be the worry at this point

A Dub in Glasgo

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/08/24/14/2B9F8B4000000578-3208234-image-a-121_1440421607560.jpg

Negative_G

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/08/24/14/2B9F8B4000000578-3208234-image-a-121_1440421607560.jpg

Tragic. There appears to be someone just to the left of the red circle in the image you posted also if you zoom in enough.

Storm 10

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/08/24/14/2B9F8B4000000578-3208234-image-a-121_1440421607560.jpg

Good God that looks horrific for those people

homerjay2005

homerjay2005 wrote: »

would think Bray above anybody else would be the safest around considering everything takes place over water.

Yes but also note there is always a reasonable amount of people in boats on the water just outside the display line as well. It is safer but it's not 100% safe for spectators.

Shoreham is a very strange place to have a display, terrain to the north, housing East and west but sea to the south and not that far away, I'm assuming they wanted some cash coming in so wanted it on the airfield but honestly the only real display line I can see would be down 02/20 but that still involves crossing that road.

I'm sure it's been held here numerous times before without incident and this is just one of those terrible terrible accidents that happen. RIP to all those killed and quick recoveries to those in hospital.

I've seen other photos and that Dailymail shot with the Merc A class and Astra in it they are parked up in the central median in one piece, lucky for them. Unfortunately that means the Hunter is going towards that group in that shot.

Growler!!!

Deleted User wrote: »

I've seen other photos and that Dailymail shot with the Merc A class and Astra in it they are parked up in the central median in one piece, lucky for them. Unfortunately that means the Hunter is going towards that group in that shot.

There's a later photo showing the junction and a fire services vehicle. Unfortunately there are a number of objects covered in blue tarps in the upper left corner. It appears to be where those people were standing. RIP.

Growler!!!

Growler!!! wrote: »

There's a later photo showing the junction and a fire services vehicle. Unfortunately there are a number of objects covered in blue tarps in the upper left corner. It appears to be where those people were standing. RIP.

Yeah that's the photo I was referring to.

RIP killed while taking part in a hobby they enjoyed.

Spanish Eyes

The group pictured in the Daily Mail seem oblivious to what is happening a few feet away from them.

Surely the noise of the explosion etc. would have you running away as fast as possible.

A very sad day.

Killinator

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The group pictured in the Daily Mail seem oblivious to what is happening a few feet away from them.

Surely the noise of the explosion etc. would have you running away as fast as possible.

A very sad day.

They most likely wouldn't even have had time to register what was happening

Pretzill

Killinator wrote: »

They most likely wouldn't even have had time to register what was happening

Yeah my feelings exactly - shocking photo - I wouldn't advise looking at it too closely - nightmarish.

Irish Steve

A very sad day indeed, and one that hopefully will not be repeated for a very long time, if ever. It's pleasing that no additional deaths have been confirmed so far today.

The unfortunate aspect is that people who were not as such involved with the air day became involved through no fault of their own. It's important however to keep some perspective on this, the last accident at an airshow in the UK that resulted in fatalities to spectators was over 50 years ago. There are unfortunately regular deaths in events related to motor cycle racing, but there has not been any ban introduced into the sport, and a while ago, a number of people were tragically killed as a result of poor visibility on a motorway in the UK (M5 near Taunton Somerset) as a result of a nearby public firework display, but there have been no bans on public displays.

Clearly, this tragic accident has to be fully investigated, and the reasons (it's very unlikely to have been just one issue) for the crash found, and if it becomes clear that different regulations will prevent a recurrence, then different regulations will indeed be appropriate. Aviation has an excellent record in terms of learning from accidents, and making significant and sometimes expensive changes to the industry if it is clear that there is a shortcoming that was responsible for the accident.

That will be the case this time also, at this stage of the inquiry into the "how and why", while it's very easy to speculate about the cause, or causes, we do not yet have clear and accurate answers about what went wrong, and why. that will only come out as a result of the investigation that will be carried out in the same depth and with the same attention to detail that follows any significant air accident. That much we can be sure of, and we should be very confident that the AAIB will do their work in as rapid a time as they can, and with the careful and detailed attention to all of the significant facts.

In the meantime, we shall have to hope that the rest of the display season will not be too dramatically impacted, as while there is a clear entertainment aspect to air shows, we must never forget that many of the shows are run to raise essential funds to provide support services for people from the armed forces who are in need of help for whatever reason. It would be very unfortunate if the regular air shows, and the services they support were to be unable to continue.

_Tombstone_

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/11819813/Shoreham-Air-Show-crash-Search-for-bodies-continues-as-11-feared-dead-latest.html

It's kept up to date with the Story so far. Death toll is still 11 with the Plane moved and a search of the area performed, they extended the search area now though to be sure.

Red Arrows are asked every year to perform there and refuse every year as it's to built up an area.

Another Hunter pilot has said its straight forward pilot error (the official report will take years), he reckons he started the loop to low,

Captain Eric “Winkle” Brown, a former Fleet Air Arm test pilot who has flown Hunters and was at the air show, said the most likely cause of the crash was pilot error. He said:

"At this stage if I had to make a guess I would say it was totally pilot error. I think he started the loop too low, which meant he didn't have time to pull out when he completed the loop.
As I was watching it I was thinking he had started to pull up too low. I've seen it happen two or three times at air days, it's a pretty common pilot's error.

When he got to the bottom of the loop he had run out of space and he was 'mushing in', in other words the nose of the aircraft was pointing up but it was still falling because he had lost lift.
It's a flat stall and you will drop like a stone when that happens."

BlaasForRafa

Eric Winkle Brown is quite possibly the most experienced test pilot of all time, if he's venturing an opinion then it's worth taking seriously. The hunter certainly did seem to wallow at the lower part of the loop.

Irish Steve

FWIW, Red Arrows won't do AEROBATIC display at Shoreham, but would fly past with smoke on.

One of several reasons is the problem is the high ground less than 2 miles to the north, which would be a major problem with the display axis that it based on runway 02/20, the presence of that ground would make their hard floor too high for then doing anything other than a flat display due to the upper limit above Shoreham of FL55 due to the proximity of Gatwick, the high ground is 700 Ft, and a flat display at 1000 Ft is going to be very unimpressive to people on the ground. The base of the TMA comes down to FL45 just north of the airfield, so there are significant restrictions on the space available for display purposes. To get an idea of the restrictions, see the chart at http://www.nats.aero/nsf/TMAPopup.htm

The upper limit of FL55 may also be a factor that may have caused the pilot of the Hunter to start his loop at the level he did, I've seen figures suggesting that a loop normally would go to about 6000 Ft, that would not have been possible without a specific exemption from Gatwick, which may not have been possible with the easterly winds that were blowing on Saturday, The Midhurst VOR is not far from Shoreham, and the base of the TMA there is a lot lower, at 2500 Ft, and fairly close to Shoreham to the North, the limit drops to Fl45 . That is likely to have been an issue on Saturday.

fryup

Pilot blackout?? he doesn't look the strongest of guys

how much g-force would you experience doing a manoeuvre like that?

Storm 10

To be honest the loop was the one thing that scared the crap out of me at Air Shows, the number of times I though the aircraft was going to crash was frightening. I hope the loop gets banned full stop, it will be interesting to see if it does get banned how it will affect the likes of the "Red Arrows" displays.

Negative_G

fryup wrote: »

Pilot blackout?? he doesn't look the strongest of guys

how much g-force would you experience doing a manoeuvre like that?

No more than 4/5 G on the initial pull up and on the pull to level off the aircraft.

I still stand by my original hypothesis which is in line with the quote from Winkle Brown above.

beauf

When I first saw the video the very first thing that I thought was he's starting that loop very low. The second was that it was very slow. Perhaps the height and speed were all constrained by the location.

Aerohead

From the UK CAA

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SD2015003.pdf

5rtytry56

Points 1 & 2 of the annex noted.

Sterling Archer

I wonder how long they will keep hunters grounded?

<->

smurfjed

Its not just antique aircraft that crash, all of these were modern aircraft at the time of their crashes.

fryup

EchoIndia wrote: »

It is the same aircraft as displayed at Bray last month.

and is it the same pilot??

Nforce

fryup wrote: »

and is it the same pilot??

Yes. Andy Hill displayed this aircraft at Shannon, Foynes and Bray this summer.

Stheno

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/08/24/14/2B9F8B4000000578-3208234-image-a-121_1440421607560.jpg

Amazingly it seems none of them were even hurt badly

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3212608/All-11-Shoreham-airshow-victims-identified-police-tell-families-highly-likely-loved-ones-died.html

fryup

fryup wrote: »

and is it the same pilot??

Nforce wrote: »

Yes. Andy Hill displayed this aircraft at Shannon, Foynes and Bray this summer.

did he do the same manoeuvre ?

Irish Steve

fryup wrote: »

did he do the same manoeuvre ?

Unlikely, as the high terrain and runway orientation at Shoreham was the prime reason for the roll in the middle of the loop.

Bray and Foynes would not have had the same requirement, and Shannon was unlikely to have needed it, as there are not the same problems with high ground close to the airport in the way that there is at Shoreham.

Nforce

Initial AAIB report now available https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-investigation-to-hawker-hunter-t7-g-bxfi

Aircraft carried 2 onboard cameras which may help the investigation. Report mentions that the pilots and his seat came to rest separate from the aircraft, which may have been due to a late ejection attempt or a cause of the aircraft breakup.

smurfjed

Its worth noting that the initial report is aiming towards pilot error rather than the fact that it was an old aircraft.

cml387

smurfjed wrote: »

Its worth noting that the initial report is aiming towards pilot error rather than the fact that it was an old aircraft.

I don't read that into the report. It just seems to be a statement of the facts known at this point.

smurfjed

Two image recording cameras were mounted within the cockpit. One was located on the aft
cockpit bulkhead between the two seats, giving a partial view of the pilot and instrument panel,
and a view through the cockpit canopy and windscreen. To date no abnormal indications
have been identified. Throughout the flight, the aircraft appeared to be responding to the
pilot’s control inputs.

There is also reference to the permitted display height and the actual display height, but i would consider this a paperwork issue.

_Tombstone_

Investigation of this has widened to include another Show at Southport a year earlier where the same pilot messed up a roll and came within 20metres of the Crowd - rest of the show was immediately cancelled.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/02/shoreham-crash-police-widen-inquiry-to-southport-airshow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwhLSHpeiE8

durandal01

Hawker Hunters are cleared to fly again but airshow restrictions are still in place...
http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&catid=1&id=6886&mode=detail&pagetype=65