Leaf or Zoe

Soarer

Afternoon lads & lassies.

Can someone explain the pros and cons of both in the secondhand market?
I'm looking at Autotrader.co.uk, and the cheapest Leaf available is a 2011 for £6900. It has 70,000 miles though.
For the same money, there's a 2013 Zoe Dynamique Zen with only 5,800 miles on the clock.
Is the Leaf that much a better car?
Do Nissan/Renault share technologies in the EV world, the same way they do in the ICE world?
Anything else I should be asking?

Benny_Cake

The Leaf is a larger car than the Zoe. Some would view that as an advantage, others as a disadvantage.

The Zoe has a fantastic AC charger which means it can charge up from empty to full in just over an hour at any 22kw charge point - and there are a lot of them in Ireland. That's a lot faster than the Leaf. As regards fast chargers there are more fast charge points for the Leaf at the moment but the situation is changing rapidly and any new fast chargers going in will charge both Leaf and Zoe. Another advantage of the Zoe is that there isn't a lot of them in the country at the moment so it's rare that you'll be waiting for someone else to finish at a fast charger.

The big disadvantage is that you'll have to pay to lease the battery, even on a second hand Zoe. Some see that as an advantage, but I can't for the life of me see why. You'd have to weigh up the upfront savings of the Zoe against the ongoing battery lease.

Both cars get great reviews from their owners so either would be a good purchase. The Leaf is the dominant EV in Ireland at the moment,and I love my Leaf, but Dexter who posts here is a committed Zoe driver so he'll probably set you straight on the advantages!

Soarer

Thanks Benny.

So you can't buy a Zoe outright?! Like you, that makes no sense to me. The whole point in going electric would be to save the €80 per month I spend on diesel.

Scottie99

I'd buy a Zoe if there was no monthly charge. If I was going to buy a Leaf, I'd buy 2013+

Soarer

Scottie99 wrote: »

I'd buy a Zoe if there was no monthly charge. If I was going to buy a Leaf, I'd buy 2013+

Why 2013+?

I thought the value was the early models, with the Bose system, solar panel spoiler, etc.

Soarer

Soarer wrote: »

Thanks Benny.

So you can't buy a Zoe outright?! Like you, that makes no sense to me. The whole point in going electric would be to save the €80 per month I spend on diesel.

The idea of the battery rental was (1) to keep the cost of the car a lot lower and then you'd pay for the battery per month but then you got 2 monthly bills anyway so it made no sense really. You'd be better off to lease the whole car, this is what I'm doing with the leaf and my monthly payments are 450 PM on PCP V about 750 for a bank loan. And if I was doing a lot less Kms per year I'd pay a lot less. And (2) if the battery fails or only has 75% or less charge they would install a new one but that's not necessarily the case, the contract is worded that it's at Renault's discretion whether they install a new one or repair the old one and on that basis I would never lease the battery.

The 44 Kw AC charger in Zoe is great and will charge to 80% from empty in about 1 hr and to 100% in about 1hr 30 mins from all our 22 Kw standard street charge points.

Go to the ecar charge point map and see all the fast AC chargers, then look at all the AC points, (the green icons) and you'll see there are quiet a lot of them.

I have the leaf with 6.6 Kw charger and find it most useful, it will charge from 25% to 90% in about 2 hrs. I wouldn't have the leaf with the 3.3 Kw charger, AC is far too useful ! Drive into town, plug in 2 hrs later you got 90% and plenty to get home. (usually a fast charge gets you 80%) You get back to the car drive off and not have to look for a fast charger then wait to charge or wait for someone else to charge first.

Zoe is a nice looking car but compared to the leaf it's too small for me and it's noticeably slower.

The battery lease usually won't end up costing more than if you bought outright but if you do lots of miles over 5 years or so it could cost more than if you bought the car and battery together.

Do think about PCP on a new leaf, the down side is even though the monthly repayments are a lot cheaper and sometimes cheaper than buying 2nd hand you got the balloon at the end if you want to keep it. But if you don't intend to keep after 3 years it is a good way to buy. You usually have a deposit in the old car to go forward.

I think you can get PCP on 2nd hand cars too so do ask.

mr.dunkey

The LEAF is lightly bigger and is available in battery rental form(flexi) from uk as well as fully owned.
The Zoe which is a great car and had a superior charger is now available to buy from uk with battery owned, check out Renault uk website for info, You wont find a used ZOE yet with no rental as its only a new thing.

if the Zoe was available in fully purchased battery here I think it would gve the LEAF a good run

Scottie99

Soarer wrote: »

Why 2013+?

I thought the value was the early models, with the Bose system, solar panel spoiler, etc.

The solar spoiler doesn't make any real difference. The improvement they made makes a difference, especially the heating/AC. On a cold winters morning knowing by turning on the heating, it won't make any difference to your range is the clincher. Having had both versions, I'd go 2013+

You really need to drive the two cars to get a good idea , Zoe has the darker dash now too.

I preferred the extra poke and space of the Leaf and the Leaf interior, the heated seats, leather effect and heated steering. The 6.6 Kw optional charger even though not nearly as powerful as the Zoe has still proved itself really useful and meant on several occasions I haven't had to go and find and wait at a fast charger.

Look at the charge point map and see if the places you regularly visit have a fast charger and compare it to the green icons which are the standard street charge points, they are still quick for Zoe 0-80% in 1 hour. The Leaf will get from 25-90% in about 2 hrs. (with the 6.6 Kw and 4 hours with the standard 3.3Kw) So Zoe may get from 25-90% in 45-50 mins. That's not bad. Why Nissan Ireland still buy the 3.3Kw is beyond me.

Soarer

Scottie99 wrote: »

The solar spoiler doesn't make any real difference. The improvement they made makes a difference, especially the heating/AC. On a cold winters morning knowing by turning on the heating, it won't make any difference to your range is the clincher. Having had both versions, I'd go 2013+

So does that heater thing come as standard from 2013 on? Is it like a separate heating system that doesn't draw off the battery or something?

Deleted User wrote: »

You really need to drive the two cars to get a good idea , Zoe has the darker dash now too.

I preferred the extra poke and space of the Leaf and the Leaf interior, the heated seats, leather effect and heated steering. The 6.6 Kw optional charger even though not nearly as powerful as the Zoe has still proved itself really useful and meant on several occasions I haven't had to go and find and wait at a fast charger.

Look at the charge point map and see if the places you regularly visit have a fast charger and compare it to the green icons which are the standard street charge points, they are still quick for Zoe 0-80% in 1 hour. The Leaf will get from 25-90% in about 2 hrs. (with the 6.6 Kw and 4 hours with the standard 3.3Kw) So Zoe may get from 25-90% in 45-50 mins. That's not bad. Why Nissan Ireland still buy the 3.3Kw is beyond me.

Thanks for all that info. I'd not even consider the Zoe as long as there's battery rental.

The more efficient heat pump became available on the updated leaf from July 2013 on. 132 reg some 132 reg leafs might be the original leaf, you can tell if it's the updated leaf by the darker interior.

The XE base leaf does not include the heat pump nor is it an option. The SV and SVE leaf have it as standard but in all honesty it really only matters if driving near the limit daily of about 100 Kms at the height of winter. Always pre heat the car while plugged in. The heat pump might get you an extra 15 kms range. I reckon I would need to be plugged in by 110 kms max at the height of winter.

If you're regularly driving 60+ miles a day it might be a good idea to have the heat pump, you will get more range but the greatest impact on range is not the heater but a cold battery, wind and surface water like that on the N7 which has very poor drainage. But having the heat pump does help.

What is your average daily mileage ?

Remember the leaf this late Autumn is getting a range upgrade of about 30 odd Kms which should see it pass 160 Kms Summer and 140kms winter on a charge. Do look into PCP because you might get PCP on a new Leaf cheaper than getting a bank loan on 132 reg leaf. The new leaf is due late 2017 and should have at least 320 Kms range. So you might be able to get PCP on a 132 and hop into a new one in 2018. There will be more choice at that stage. Hyundai are now looking to join the race for longer range electrics by 2018, GM/Opel Bolt, Tesla Model 3 and a few others.

The 132+ Leaf has also had some sort of battery chemistry change which has made it more robust than the 2011-late 13 Leaf.

Soarer

Thanks once again.

My weekly mileage probably averages out at about 30 miles per day. And it's all short trips. Biggest single trip would be to play ball twice a week, and even that is only 10 miles(ish) each way. Plus the boss in work has committed to getting a charge point installed if anyone ever buys a Leaf!

Not really looking at new, as I currently have a loan out with the credit union with about 15 months left to run. I could borrow ~ €12k, extend it back out over 5 years, and have no change to my current repayments. So I'd be up the 80 odd euro per month I currently spend on diesel. Not to mention the €500 per year in road tax.
But I'm 15 months off being (non-mortgage) debt free for the first time in 15 years, so I'm really torn as to what to do.
I suppose I could throw the money I'm saving off the loan and pay it back even quicker?

Really am torn with this bloody thing. I'd buy a Twizzy (with doors) in the morning if it had 2 back seats for the kids to go to school.

Soarer

Soarer wrote: »

Thanks once again.

My weekly mileage probably averages out at about 30 miles per day. And it's all short trips. Biggest single trip would be to play ball twice a week, and even that is only 10 miles(ish) each way. Plus the boss in work has committed to getting a charge point installed if anyone ever buys a Leaf!

Not really looking at new, as I currently have a loan out with the credit union with about 15 months left to run. I could borrow ~ €12k, extend it back out over 5 years, and have no change to my current repayments. So I'd be up the 80 odd euro per month I currently spend on diesel. Not to mention the €500 per year in road tax.
But I'm 15 months off being (non-mortgage) debt free for the first time in 15 years, so I'm really torn as to what to do.
I suppose I could throw the money I'm saving off the loan and pay it back even quicker?

Really am torn with this bloody thing. I'd buy a Twizzy (with doors) in the morning if it had 2 back seats for the kids to go to school.

A 2011 Leaf would suit you fine at that mileage. Set it to charge to 80% all the time and it will help the battery last that bit longer. Then Set it to 100% when you need the extra range.

The head pump only matters to maximize range but since your daily mileage is only about half the maximum winter range on the original leaf with a new battery I wouldn't really worry about having the heat pump at all, it's only when you want to drive to the max range then the heat pump will help but if Nissan had included a battery heater then this would have had a greater impact because it would have maximize range by allowing the battery take a full charge. A warm battery makes fast charging a lot faster, fast charging can take 15 mins longer in the cold.

Don't be put off the battery rental on Zoe, for starters it might work out the same over the x amount of years if you intend to keep it V buying the car with the battery.

pwurple

Two kids? Has to be the leaf. Just be cause the Zoe is smaller.

We have two children (one in a car seat) and it is tight fitting one of their friends in between them in the back as it is in our leaf. Zoe would be too uncomfortable. Plus more boot space for their sports gear, maybe the odd drive to Kerry for a weekend.

I do like the Zoe, great car, but it's more for a family with one or no children I think.

Dexter1979

pwurple wrote: »

Two kids? Has to be the leaf. Just be cause the Zoe is smaller.

We have two children (one in a car seat) and it is tight fitting one of their friends in between them in the back as it is in our leaf. Zoe would be too uncomfortable. Plus more boot space for their sports gear, maybe the odd drive to Kerry for a weekend.

Plenty of space in the back of Zoe. 3 isofix in the car as well (2 in back, 1 on front). Boot space is not much different to a LEAF. Yes, it's smaller but you would be surprised how much you can fit. Biggest issue on that front is that the backbeat doesn't fold flat and it is one seat. No split. But this doesn't bother me.

The rental can work out fine on a new car as total cost of ownership might be cheaper. Think you can get a new Zoe on PCP for about 180/month incl rental for 1250/km per quarter. Obviously with a larger deposit.

The charger is great as it allows me to use nearly all SCPs in the country (about 800) as quick top ups. Walked the dog yesterday and gained about 50% in 35 minutes.

foodaholic

We have a Zoe and second baby is nearly here - plenty of room.
Boot is very large - for all the buggy bits ect.

The best bit about owning a Zoe is the quick charging times and Ive never had to wait to charge.

Dexter1979

foodaholic wrote: »

Boot is very large - for all the buggy bits ect.

The best bit about owning a Zoe is the quick charging times and Ive never had to wait to charge.

Yes same here.. Not having to worry about queues is a good thing at present as all fast chargers in Ireland (and most other EU countries, UK excluded) can charge a AC and DC car at the same time..

Here is an example of fitting 2 children into a Zoe -> Renault ZOE: Commuter Road Test - Jessie

The buggy bits are predominantly related to the R-Link sat nav/media system in my view.. But I'm used to most and they are not show stoppers.. Just minor amusements..

Like not being able to turn off displaying petrol stations along the road or turning on the USB music player at startup when you had nothing playing when you parked the car the day before.. My choice of music (and volume) give my wife a fright sometimes

Boot is about 30 liters smaller in the Zoe than in the Leaf.. Which is not much..

I have taken my Zoe to Holland and back.. In fairness, you would be able to do the same with a Leaf but you might struggle a bit in Belgium at present..

cros13

TBH apart from the battery lease the biggest problem I have with the Zoe is the charger. While reuse of drive components for the charger made building the car cheaper, there are issues with the design as a result.

One set of problems are isolation issues with the battery and motor.
Another problem is that it uses the regen braking rectifier to rectify AC, so any surge on the power supply can not only fry the charger it can basically total your drivetrain. Another problem is inefficiency when charging at home at lower amperage, the overhead can be 20% or more.

I don't think there's be a lot of issues with the zoe?

Even if it's a bit more inefficient I think having the ability to charge from an Ac point to 80% in an hour more than makes up for it.

I chose the leaf over the zoe because it looks better inside is bigger, heated seats and steering and the extra power is noticeable especially above 80 kph. 90 hp just doesn't cut it these days for me and certainly not in a heavy car.

To some these things are not important and in reality the chameleon charger did little benefit to me on my commute which is 95 % is my driving.

I just hope the next gen Renault and Nissan electrics have more power options and not gust one motor and one power choice.

I'm not knocking zoe at all is a great EV and certainly a really nice looking car on the outside. It just wasn't for me.

737max

Any updates coming for the Zoe? It got the 240km NEDC range with the new motor but anything else coming to push the range out further or perhaps the top speed up a little bit.

I half suspect that as the Twingo isn't selling at all well they could possibly drop the Zoe and bring out a Twingo EV/Smart ForFour EV justifying it by keeping the factory busy. I think a BEV Twingo would be a better car than a Petrol Twingo.

Be careful with Zoe, the newer more efficient drivetrain sacrifices fast charging, meaning 20 Kw is the max. V 44 Kw for the fast charge version, so basically the higher efficiency is worthless.

They still sell the fast charge version though.

737max

Well my choice of EVs in our scheme is limited but the fast charge wouldn't matter much to me as it would be charging every day in work while I work.
benefits for me is that it is very heavily subsidised, allows me to park on the first floor of the mutli-storey car park and out of the rain and the electricity is all renewable source.

supposedly the smart for four EV will use the same motor as the Zoe and that car will probably be a good 200 kilos lighter than a Zoe.

I've mailed our car fleet office to avail of an overnight/over weekend test drive of the BMW i3 pool car.

I already had a brief test drive in the Zoe and I liked it a huge amount except for the nasty cheap white dashboard and interior

Zoe is now available with a much darker dash.

If you're happy with a 80% charge in 1 hr then that's fine but I strongly advise you to think carefully about purchasing an EV without fast charging.

I have work charging but there are times I need a quick top up or take a longer trip and need the faster charging even though the 24 Kwh Leaf doesn't charge beyond about 30-35 Kw > 30% charge the extra 10-15 Kw does make a difference.

However for most of my driving the 6.6 kw AC charger in the Leaf does get me out of having to fast charge a lot and the 20-22 Kw AC charger in the non fast charging Zoe is pretty quick. But there are times the faster charging will be greatly welcome.

The 30 Kwh Leaf charges at 40-45 Kw until 80%. And in 25 mins has a little more range than the 24 Kwh Leaf fully charged.

I don't find any benefit in the so called more efficient Zoe that eliminates 44 Kw fast charging. The ability to fast charge at the same time as the Leaf is also another + for Zoe.