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Landlord is increasing rent in the middle of a fixed term lease

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  • 26-08-2015 9:45am
    #1
    stephenmario
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭


    Hi,

    I'm looking for a bit of advise.

    Basically my landlord is increasing my rent for a house from 1800 to 2100. The lease is for 12 months, from September to August and I've been there 3 years. The landlord told me yesterday the increase would take effect in October. I wasn't so positive on the idea and said I'd need some time to think about it and then the landlord told me if I was moving out I would need to give 30 days notice.

    I'm in a situation that if I want to move out during the 12 lease I'll lose my deposit and I don't have enough time to give notice before I sign a new lease.

    What can I do? I don't want to have to pay this increase.


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    #2
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    September to this August or next September to August next year? Basically if you're in a lease if either person changes the conditions without the other person's consent they're breaking it. Do you mean you're about to enter a new lease and the landlord wants to raise the rent for it? If it's all outlined in advance and there hasn't been an increase in the year before then there's nothing much you can do. If you've agreed the upcoming lease and then he changed the agreement then he's breaking it. I don't see why you'd lose your deposit once you give the correct notice.


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    #3
    punisher5112
    Registered Users Posts: 24,644 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    stephenmario wrote: »
    Hi,

    I'm looking for a bit of advise.

    Basically my landlord is increasing my rent for a house from 1800 to 2100. The lease is for 12 months, from September to August and I've been there 3 years. The landlord told me yesterday the increase would take effect in October. I wasn't so positive on the idea and said I'd need some time to think about it and then the landlord told me if I was moving out I would need to give 30 days notice.

    I'm in a situation that if I want to move out during the 12 lease I'll lose my deposit and I don't have enough time to give notice before I sign a new lease.

    What can I do? I don't want to have to pay this increase.


    1 LL can not increase inside 12month lease.
    He can up after the 12 months.
    Only thing the increase has to be within market rate for same/similar property.

    2 if you feel it is too much and no other property in the area is that expensive then contact prtb with an official complaint letter.

    Be prepared if you plan on staying that if they find the increase ok then you will have to pay difference and you could be waiting 6months for case to be heard


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    #4
    stephenmario
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭stephenmario


    Sorry should have been more clear.

    I'm about to sign a new lease from sept 15 to aug 16. The landlord wants to increase the rent in oct 15 which I am against. There's been no increase previously. My understanding is that I'm not able to break my fixed term lease without losing my deposit or move out at the end of the lease without a month notice with our losing my deposit?


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    #5
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    stephenmario wrote: »
    Sorry should have been more clear.

    I'm about to sign a new lease from sept 15 to aug 16. The landlord wants to increase the rent in oct 15 which I am against. There's been no increase previously. My understanding is that I'm not able to break my fixed term lease without losing my deposit or move out at the end of the lease without a month notice with our losing my deposit?

    Your current lease ends in September 15, if I'm reading this right?

    Just tell him you can't afford the price increase and won't be signing a new lease and will have to give him notice.

    If you're signing a new 12 month lease every year you can leave at the end of each 12 month period.


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    #6
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,687 ✭✭✭whippet


    stephenmario wrote: »
    Sorry should have been more clear.

    I'm about to sign a new lease from sept 15 to aug 16. The landlord wants to increase the rent in oct 15 which I am against. There's been no increase previously. My understanding is that I'm not able to break my fixed term lease without losing my deposit or move out at the end of the lease without a month notice with our losing my deposit?

    the landlord is entitled to review the rent every 12 months, sounds like he is giving fair warning of an intended increase.

    If you sign the new 12 month lease you are doing so at the new rent level. Should you wish not to pay the increase you can give your notice to terminate the lease and leave without needed to sign the new 12 month lease (as you are in a part 4 tenancy)

    However, unless the rent increase is way out of line with going market rents you will still need to pay the increased amount until you fulfil your notice period an move out.


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    #7
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    If you haven't agreed a lease yet how would you be breaking it? I'm not sure what notice period is required (from the tenant) if you wish to move out at the end of a fixed term lease, I think the position is more that you move out at the end of it by default, and that you should say if you want to continue it, unless the lease specifies these conditions (the landlord however has to give very specified notice). But anyway, October it two months away, plenty of time to give notice.


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    #8
    stephenmario
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭stephenmario


    whippet wrote: »
    the landlord is entitled to review the rent every 12 months, sounds like he is giving fair warning of an intended increase.

    If you sign the new 12 month lease you are doing so at the new rent level. Should you wish not to pay the increase you can give your notice to terminate the lease and leave without needed to sign the new 12 month lease (as you are in a part 4 tenancy)

    However, unless the rent increase is way out of line with going market rents you will still need to pay the increased amount until you fulfil your notice period an move out.

    I'd be signing a new lease beginning 01/09/15. The increase would take effect 01/10/15. Realistically the notice I'm getting about the increase is a week as I'll be locked into the fixed 12 month lease with the increase beginning a month into the lease.

    I have read I need to give notice a months notice at the end of a fixed lease which I can't do now because it is up next week. I can't give a months notice in a fixed 12 month lease as it is fixed for that time period.


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    #9
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭Daith


    I think the Landlord is doing you a favour here.

    Have you suggested to him about ending the lease in Aug, paying for Sept as normal and move out in Oct? He's not asking for increased rent in Sept is he?

    Also this might sound silly but do double check your lease actually finishes on the 1st of Sept and not the end? Which would tie in to Landlord only wanting rent increase in Oct...


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    #10
    scrimshanker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 738 ✭✭✭scrimshanker


    stephenmario wrote: »
    I'd be signing a new lease beginning 01/09/15. The increase would take effect 01/10/15. Realistically the notice I'm getting about the increase is a week as I'll be locked into the fixed 12 month lease with the increase beginning a month into the lease.

    I have read I need to give notice a months notice at the end of a fixed lease which I can't do now because it is up next week. I can't give a months notice in a fixed 12 month lease as it is fixed for that time period.

    So don't sign a new lease! Give 8 weeks written notice that you intend to terminate the tenancy. So you'll pay one month at the higher rate and then leave.


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    #11
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    stephenmario wrote: »
    I have read I need to give notice a months notice at the end of a fixed lease which I can't do now because it is up next week.

    Of course you can, you don't HAVE to sign the new lease next week. Your landlord didn't give you a months notice before the end of the lease that he was upping the rent!

    Phone him and tell him you can't afford the increase and You will be moving out on 1/10/2015. This gives him one months notice from the end date of the current lease.


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    #12
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭Daith


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    Of course you can, you don't HAVE to sign the new lease next week. Your landlord didn't give you a months notice before the end of the lease that he was upping the rent!

    Is this an actual requirement for a fixed term lease? A minimum notice from the landlord about the rent?


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    #13
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    The really weird thing here is that the new lease starts in September but he wants to up the rent in October.
    He's pulling a fast one and trying to lock you into a new lease without giving proper notice of increase. He should have given you the notice at the end of July that the rent would increase in the new lease, he didn't and now he's trying to trick you into signing a new lease at the higher rate. I'd almost advise you to insist that as he didn't give proper notice that you have no intention of signing on at a higher rate and will be exercising your intention to sign a new lease at the old rate as he hasn't given you proper notice of increase.


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    #14
    Subcomandante Marcos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭Subcomandante Marcos


    Daith wrote: »
    Is this an actual requirement for a fixed term lease? A minimum notice from the landlord about the rent?

    I'm 99% certain that just as the tenant has to inform that landlord that they wish to remain in occupation 1 month before the end of the lease, the Landlord would have to introduce the increase at that stage.


    The OP hasn't told us whether or not the had given the landlord notification of intention to remain in occupation now that I think of it.

    Had you told the landlord by 1/08/2015 that you would remain in the property OP? If so, and he is only introducing the increase now, he's in the wrong.

    If not your lease ends next week and tbh that's the end of it.


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    #15
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Why would you sign a new lease? A Part IV tenancy allows you to give notice and move out without being tied to a 12 month lease.


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    #16
    stephenmario
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭stephenmario


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    The really weird thing here is that the new lease starts in September but he wants to up the rent in October.
    He's pulling a fast one and trying to lock you into a new lease without giving proper notice of increase. He should have given you the notice at the end of July that the rent would increase in the new lease, he didn't and now he's trying to trick you into signing a new lease at the higher rate. I'd almost advise you to insist that as he didn't give proper notice that you have no intention of signing on at a higher rate and will be exercising your intention to sign a new lease at the old rate as he hasn't given you proper notice of increase.

    This is partly what I feel is going on. the Landlord wanted to increase the rent but didn't inform us in time and is now doing it a month into the lease to say notice has been given.
    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    I'm 99% certain that just as the tenant has to inform that landlord that they wish to remain in occupation 1 month before the end of the lease, the Landlord would have to introduce the increase at that stage.


    The OP hasn't told us whether or not the had given the landlord notification of intention to remain in occupation now that I think of it.

    Had you told the landlord by 1/08/2015 that you would remain in the property OP? If so, and he is only introducing the increase now, he's in the wrong.

    If not your lease ends next week and tbh that's the end of it.

    I've never given a months notice about staying on, so no I did not give notice about extending the lease. I'm happy to move out as I'm not a fan of the Landlord. I would like my deposit back and I feel the landlord will try to keep it by saying he's done nothing wrong giving notice of the increase a month before the increase and that I was in the wrong because I didn't give notice about not extending the lease.


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    #17
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »
    I'm 99% certain that just as the tenant has to inform that landlord that they wish to remain in occupation 1 month before the end of the lease, the Landlord would have to introduce the increase at that stage.

    There's nothing in RTA2004 that requires this. Only that the increase must be notified 28 days before it takes place.

    It's likely that the landlord realised his error after issuing the new lease that he hadn't raised the rent. He then attempted to give the correct notice but now it falls within the lease.

    I've seen two schools of thought on this. One, that the lease constitutes a rent review and you cannot change the rent a year after the signing of a lease. Two, that the rent can be changed at any time as long as it has been at least 12 months since the last review (or start of the tenancy).

    Either way, the landlord has let you know his intentions. You can give notice now if you don't wish to pay the increase or take a case with the PRTB if it is above market rate or you feel it constitutes a breach of any law in RTA2004.


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    #18
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    I'd also add, the landlord is notifying you now before the lease is signed so I think it's fair enough to include it as an extra term in the lease that the rent is due to increase and correct notice has been given.


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    #19
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,476 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    The landlord can increase the rent to the market rate if it has not been increased within the last 12 months, which it hasn't as it was set at the start of the current fixed term lease. However notification of any increase should be in writing and given at least 28 days in advance. It can't just happen by the way on the renewal of a lease.

    The tenant is under no obligation to sign a new lease, they can decide to remain under a part iv tenancy but should have notified the landlord (in writing) between there months and one month before the end of their current fixed term lease that they intended remaining at the end of the fixed term lease (whether under a new fixed term or part iv)

    If the tenant does not want to stay at the end of the fixed term lease they should notify the landlord, in writing, with a valid notice of termination with a notice period in line with section.66 of the RTA i.e. 56 days if you are there for two or more years.

    See
    http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

    So the questions that have to be asked are

    have you been given a valid notice of the rent increase - the one month deferral of the increase in the proposed new fixed term lease could be the landlord's way of complying with this.

    Is the proposed rent in line with market rates ? If not you can raise a dispute with the PRTB to determine the market rate. If the PRTB find in the landlord's favour you will have to pay it in full, from the original date of the increase (October this year).

    If you do decide to enter into a new fixed term lease, you are not necessarily tied to staying there for the full term of the lease. You can request to sublet of assign the lease within the term of the lease. If the landlord refuses your request you can then terminate the fixed term lease without penalty.


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    #20
    stephenmario
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭stephenmario


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    If the tenant does not want to stay at the end of the fixed term lease they should notify the landlord, in writing, with a valid notice of termination with a notice period in line with section.66 of the RTA i.e. 56 days if you are there for two or more years.

    My question is then, Do I have to give this notice when the landlord has given only a weeks notice of the increase?


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    #21
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    stephenmario wrote: »
    My question is then, Do I have to give this notice when the landlord has given only a weeks notice of the increase?

    He's given you 5 weeks notice.


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    #22
    scrimshanker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 738 ✭✭✭scrimshanker


    stephenmario wrote: »
    My question is then, Do I have to give this notice when the landlord has given only a weeks notice of the increase?

    Yes.


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    #23
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭Daith


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    I'd also add, the landlord is notifying you now before the lease is signed so I think it's fair enough to include it as an extra term in the lease that the rent is due to increase and correct notice has been given.

    Effectively the landlord is giving the tenant a week's notice because the lease would need to be signed in a week.


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    #24
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Daith wrote: »
    Effectively the landlord is giving the tenant a week's notice because the lease would need to be signed in a week.

    There's no obligation to sign the lease, the notice given is more than that required by law.


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    #25
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭Daith


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    There's no obligation to sign the lease, the notice given is more than that required by law.

    Yes but there is a reason you can't increase rent after the start of a fixed term lease. The landlord made an error and while it's in the law it's a sucky thing to do given the lease is up next week.

    OP however he does have the law on his side. I think your best bet would be to claim Part IV tenancy so you're not tied to a fixed term lease.


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    #26
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Daith wrote: »
    I think your best bet would be to claim Part IV tenancy
    It's automatic.


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    #27
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭Daith


    TheChizler wrote: »
    It's automatic.

    I thought you had to give notice of claiming this? If it's automatic that's good to hear though!

    Although I did mean tell the landlord that you were claiming it.


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    #28
    stephenmario
    Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭stephenmario


    Daith wrote: »
    Yes but there is a reason you can't increase rent after the start of a fixed term lease. The landlord made an error and while it's in the law it's a sucky thing to do given the lease is up next week.

    OP however he does have the law on his side. I think your best bet would be to claim Part IV tenancy so you're not tied to a fixed term lease.


    Thanks. I still think it's madness the landlord can up the rent a month into a fixed term lease, telling me as I'm about to sign it that week and I'll be losing my deposit if I refuse the increase.

    How do I claim Part IV tenancy?


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    #29
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,978 ✭✭✭Daith


    stephenmario wrote: »
    Thanks. I still think it's madness the landlord can up the rent a month into a fixed term lease, telling me as I'm about to sign it that week and I'll be losing my deposit if I refuse the increase.

    Yes I think while the landlord is technically correct it is a ****ty situation.
    stephenmario wrote: »
    How do I claim Part IV tenancy?

    Just inform your landlord. However you should really read up on what Part IV means (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html). Ring Threshold or ask here obviously.

    You would need to give 56 days notice if you intend to leave so you'd have to pay for Oct at the increased rent. However you wouldn't be tied to a lease and could claim back your despoit after the 56 days.

    Again though be sure about the Part IV and that you know the pros and cons.


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    #30
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Daith wrote: »
    Yes but there is a reason you can't increase rent after the start of a fixed term lease. The landlord made an error and while it's in the law it's a sucky thing to do given the lease is up next week.

    OP however he does have the law on his side. I think your best bet would be to claim Part IV tenancy so you're not tied to a fixed term lease.

    Do you have a basis for this claim? Also as I pointed out, the landlord is giving the correct notice, and including it as a part of the lease before the lease is signed.


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    #31
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,476 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    stephenmario wrote: »
    My question is then, Do I have to give this notice when the landlord has given only a weeks notice of the increase?
    Technically, yes. You should issue the landlord a notice of termination at least 56 days in advance if you intended to leave at the end of the fixed term lease and between 3 months and 1 month before the end of the current fixed term lease if you intended to stay.

    The deferral of the increase for one month in the proposed new lease could be to ensure the landlord complies with the need to give 28 days notice of rent.

    One thing to near in mind is that if you continue under a part iv tenancy the landlord can still increase the rent to the market rate once in any 12 month period (with proper notice). You will be paying the same rent whether under a fixed term lease or part iv tenancy as the increase is included in the terms of the proposed fixed term lease and there's plenty of time for the landlord to issue notice of the increase if you give notice of your intent to stay under part iv.

    Under the circumstances there would be no rental loss to the landlord if you decide to stay (either under a new fixed term lease or part iv) without having given notice of your intent between 3 and 1 months in advance.


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