Firearm storage SI 307/2009

hexosan

Here's a head scratcher for the enlighten on here

In SI 307 of 2009 - Firearms (secure accommodation) regulations 2009

It states in part 4 of the table that if your storing
"Three or more restricted firearms or six or more firearms, of any type, kept in the same place"

The following security arrangements must be in place
"In addition to the standards specified at reference number 3, the place in which the firearms are stored shall have an intruder alarm system, installed and maintained by installers licensed by the Private Security Authority, which complies with I.S. EN 50131 or an equivalent standard approved by the Commissioner of the Garda Sı´ocha´na. The alarm shall be connected to a monitoring service, operated by a person licensed by the Private Security Authority, and supported with GSM Mobile telephone service back up signalling facilities"

My question is this; does it define any where what the same place is taken to mean. Is it the same room or the same building. If you had four non restricted firearms stored in a gun safe in a converted attic say and four more stored downstairs in a spare bedroom/hall press/utility for example again in a gun safe would you then be only complying with part three of the SI.

Taking it slightly further assuming the above sticks on them all been licenced to the same person. Say if they were split between a father & son does it still apply.

And lastly what about apt blocks where multiple owners have firearms could it be taken that if over 6 they all have to comply with SI 307 part 4

Just something that popped into my head since I already comply with part 4 it doesn't really affect me.

tomtucker81

I'd say it refers to a place as in an address. So the number of firearms at your address.
In the case of apartment blocks obviously each apartment is legally a different premises with a different address. Therefore there could be 3 in your apartment and 6 next door. They are legally in separate premises while being in the same building.

So having 3 upstairs and 4 downstairs in a house wouldn't matter. They are stored at the same place/premises.

BattleCorp

hexosan wrote: »

Here's a head scratcher for the enlighten on here

In SI 307 of 2009 - Firearms (secure accommodation) regulations 2009

It states in part 4 of the table that if your storing
"Three or more restricted firearms or six or more firearms, of any type, kept in the same place"

The following security arrangements must be in place
"In addition to the standards specified at reference number 3, the place in which the firearms are stored shall have an intruder alarm system, installed and maintained by installers licensed by the Private Security Authority, which complies with I.S. EN 50131 or an equivalent standard approved by the Commissioner of the Garda Sı´ocha´na. The alarm shall be connected to a monitoring service, operated by a person licensed by the Private Security Authority, and supported with GSM Mobile telephone service back up signalling facilities"

My question is this; does it define any where what the same place is taken to mean. Is it the same room or the same building. If you had four non restricted firearms stored in a gun safe in a converted attic say and four more stored downstairs in a spare bedroom/hall press/utility for example again in a gun safe would you then be only complying with part three of the SI.

Taking it slightly further assuming the above sticks on them all been licenced to the same person. Say if they were split between a father & son does it still apply.

And lastly what about apt blocks where multiple owners have firearms could it be taken that if over 6 they all have to comply with SI 307 part 4

Just something that popped into my head since I already comply with part 4 it doesn't really affect me.

I reckon it would take a court case to sort out answers to all your questions there.

Here's my non-legal take on things. Obviously not worth the paper that it's written on.

I'd say "same place" is not legally defined. If they couldn't actually define target shooting, I'd say that they didn't define "same place". In reality, I'd say it means a building (house/flat/apartment/etc.). I doubt that you'd get around the regulations by storing your guns in different rooms in the same building (house/flat/apartment/etc.). I'd say "same place" is either your address or the place that you state on the FAC1 form where you are storing your firearm if it isn't your address.

If two people in a house store their firearms seperately, I reckon that they only have to obey the safe storage rules for their individual number of firearms. If they store them together in the same safe, then I believe that the safe storage rules for the combined number of guns would apply. If the guns are stored seperately, legally, how is one person supposed to know how many guns/restricted/not restricted that the other person has?

Again, I can't see how you could combine the number of guns in an apartment block if they are all owned by different people. How would you know the type of gun, restricted/non restricted etc. that your neighbour would have. I reckon you would be only responsible for the level of security that applies to your own number of firearms.

Sparks

I reckon it would take a court case to sort out answers to all your questions there.

This, but there have been a few in the UK they could cite for precedent and it tended to be any place you have access to (and that went sideways for the applicant in at least one case when someone else was living in that place).

Cass

As with the lads above this is only my take and not legal opinion.

My Father and i share our firearms and store them together. The key phrase for us seems to be "house/home". So regardless of where i store them in the house (same house) the total number of firearms between us counts towards the one figure. I know this as we've been asked before about our storage details because at one point we had 13 firearms.

On the matter of apartment blocks and the like it not, imo, counted as one entire block but a series of individual owners which it is. If i live in a block of flats and out of the 15 flats, 6 of us have firearms well each person is individually responsible for the storage of their firearms, and not for the others.

HOWEVER, i would say that the responsibility of how many guns are that are stored in the one complex is down to An Gardaí. IOW if the Super/Chief Super believes that there are "too many" firearms in the one area or community that somehow poses a risk to public safety he may impose stricter storage/security, storage on a range or other "offsite" secure facility, or finally refuse to issue more licenses for that area.

We have often talked about how vague the law can be. That is, imo again, a purposeful act. It leaves room for the rules to be interpreted as is necessary as any overly strict definition may inadvertently create a loophole that someone can exploit.

meathstevie

A simple amendment of the SI in which place is substituted by "any dwelling or premises not being a licenced firearms dealer's premises" would sort that.

Sparks

Simple amendments rarely solve complex problems, there's always some edge case or unforeseen scenario that buggers up even elegant phrasing...

meathstevie

Sparks wrote: »

Simple amendments rarely solve complex problems, there's always some edge case or unforeseen scenario that buggers up even elegant phrasing...

I'm afraid there's a high probability of your opinion being correct.