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Mediterranean migrants- specific questions
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Join Date:Posts: 13683
The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »What would happen in that situation? They would no longer be legally allowed to stay here but have to be kept in the country.
Normally the Minister for Justice will leave them in legal limbo until they cant stand it any more and go somewhere else or do something more drastic.0 -
Indeed, as mentioned earlier in the thread, it's a shame when the public is so ignorant on the benefits posed by immigration.
And it's a shame that certain people gloss over the fact that a huge chunk of these migrants/refugees in this case come from cultural backgrounds and belief systems that are often totally at odds with the beliefs, cultures and societies into which they are arriving.
Ah shure they will all integrate, none of them will end up like the current crop of first generation offspring, none of them will want to supplant the liberal laws of the land with their own backward religious misogynistic millennia old laws.In before "but the Cologne attacks!". The 9/11 attacks were mainly carried out by people on student and tourist visas. Unless we completely close our borders, we're always going to get criminals and terrorists in. This doesn't mean we should end tourist or student visas. Likewise with refugees unless we want a completely destabilised Middle East.
So really your aim is to try and help stablilise the Middle East, North Africa and sections of Asia by destabilising Europe.
Not sure you will admit that there is still sizable proportion of non Syrian refugees.ancapailldorcha wrote: »I don't think it's hilarious at all. Also, I'd find it a bit odd that the attacks were "covered up" and then reported. Odd thing for the media to do.
Maybe social media had a part to play.
The "powers that be" can control the mainstream media, but the likes of twitter, facebook and personal blogs are much harder to control.No they don't. You can still enter the US, Australia or Canada, depending on the severity of the offence.
Likewise, even with the EU's free movement of persons, a state can deport an EU citizen if they're deemed to constitute a security risk.
A bit like the way they are now fast tracking the deportation of a non citizen would be terrorist recruitor. :rolleyes:Anyone who has a criminal conviction will be severely vetted and the immigration officer presiding over the visa application will weigh up the situation and make a decision. Is this currently happening with the millions streaming into the EU? If not, I fail to see your point.
Yeah they phone the Syrian internal security to get background checks on all the guys who claim to be Syrian, just so that they alert the Syrians as to who has left and where they now are.
Then the Syrians can go round and look after their women folk and parents who of course have been left behind by the strong strapping lads who have gone off to find safety in Germany, Sweden, etc.johnnyskeleton wrote: »Normally the Minister for Justice will leave them in legal limbo until they cant stand it any more and go somewhere else or do something more drastic.
Charming.
It is the "do something more drastic" bit that worries me.I am not allowed discuss …
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What a bizarre attempt at false equivalence. You're comparing a tabloid to an arm of the EU with all its bureaucracy and resources?RDM_83 again wrote: »Finally getting back to this post
Would you unconditionally accept a source thats been proven very badly wrong in the past in terms of using badly inaccurate data to support its arguments (thats not wrong after the fact they used the wrong data initially) ? If so I will start firing out the Daily Mail articles in response.
Doubtess, we can find fault with virtually every organization or NGO, should we disregard all these?
If the best you can do is go BUT THE EU ISN'T ALWAYS RIGHT then we might as well not use any sources at all.
What's your issue here? Commissioners are nominated by EU governments and can be dismissed by the European Parliament.RDM_83 again wrote: »In relation to the mandate of the Commission, its goals and its levels of Democratic accountability thats a whole other thread.
No it doesn't. The data shows thatRDM_83 again wrote: »I never said immigration clogs up healthcare, what I do believe is that immigration increases waiting times for natives, and the data supports me.
and it concludesThese results confirm that immigration leads natives to move towards different areas. This also explains why we find no differences in the effect of immigration on waiting times when we include population size as a control variable.
The coefficient diminishes when we include LSOA time-varying characteristics (column 2) and does not change substantially when we control for population size. The effect of native out-migration on waiting times for elective care and A&E was insignificantThus, the effects of immigration on the demand for healthcare services are dispersed throughout the country (via internal migration
Once again, you're leaving out what comes nextRDM_83 again wrote: »Your wrong again, I have pointed out numerous times so far that the conditioned/adjusted data is not what matters when looking at the effect of migrants as a group, you continue to avoid this analysis and keep posting the same material which says that
You reliance on the conditioned data as relevant to discussion of broad impacts see belowHowever, these raw statistics do not take into account the diverse composition of immigrant groups. To this aim, the remaining columns of Table2report the probability of receiving unemployment benefits conditional on unemployment status and on socio-demographic characteristics (see Br uckeret al.,2002).13After controlling for these characteristics, there is no longer evidence that immigrants take-up benefits more than natives; if anything, immigrants if anything, immigrants (particularly those from non-EU origins) exhibit lower rates of unemployment benefit recipiency.
Very true: this is especially the case for university educated immigrants who are twice as likely as their native counterparts to be unemployed. This is not the case for low-skilled immigrants who are less likely than their native peers to be unemployed. See see hereRDM_83 again wrote: »Now to make this really really blunt. MIGRANTS DO NO SHARE THE SAME SOCIO-DEMOGRAPHIC CHARACTERISTICS OF NATIVES, ITS MEANINGLESS USING CONDITIONED DATA TO TALK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN INDIVIDUALS.
Your own data says it, now tell me why you can't engage or refute that point.Take joblessness. Across the OECD, foreign-born workers are more likely to be out of work. But, somewhat perversely, this is caused by higher rates of unemployment among those with more skills (this is perverse because usually a higher level of education makes it easier to find work). By contrast, low-educated immigrants are more likely to be employed than natives.
Both of these patterns apply to Ireland - the low-skilled foreign-born are less likely to be unemployed than Irish-born, and the higher-than-average immigrant unemployment rate in Ireland is due to more well educated people being jobless.
This is why conditioning is important. Despite the idea many have that immigrants are uneducated and therefore unable to get employment, the opposite is true with more skilled immigrants having higher rates of unemployment while low-skilled migrants are even more likely to be employed than low-skilled natives.
Doubtless, the bureaucracy of countries does not help. My partner is a British medical professional and has been attempting to get her qualification recognized in Ireland for the last 12 months, despite a UK qualification and 3 years of NHS experience. If that's how bad the HSE treats a Brit with an NHS qualification, I imagine it'd be even harder for countries even further afield.
At any rate, even if you rely on raw data, non-EU nationals are even less reliant on the social welfare system than natives: they're far less likely to claim disability or sick pay for example.
The link to the first quote was from the UN paper.RDM_83 again wrote: »I don't have a link for the first quote and the other UN one is just minimalist power points so will deal with the Turin paper.
At any rate, the "minimalist power points" is from the IOM, or are you disregarding them as a source now as well? If they highlight that return migration is "considerable", I'd see that as a fairly valid source.
The Turin paper already highlights that more than half of labour migrants return home. It does highlight that refugees have lower return rates but this is asRDM_83 again wrote: »I know you will respond with the paragraph below that this lack of returns is to do with them being refugees/ people restricted for re-entry, for this to be a valid defense you have to be stating that one would grant permanent unconditional residency rights and if that occurs then the pensions/benefit things kicks in too an even greater extent
Additionally there is the issue of capital flight, the removals of those migrants saving from the economy of their host country and the fact that many (most) countries allow pensions.
I'm not hugely opposed to EU migration in situations where there is equal purchasing power parity and wage levels between member states which is where the data in that paper supports high rates of return, the situation specific to this thread is exactly the situation that your own source shows low rates of return for.
Where the security situation allows this, refugees show high levels of return migration: within 90 days of the Kosovo war ending, 94% of Kosovar refugees had returned home.The main reason for the decline is apparently that refugees’ possibility to return is restricted, due the security situation in the home country.
I'm not sure what your issue of capital flight or wage levels is about. This is assuming they stay long enough to acquire a pension and even if this is the case, they'll have needed to have paid enough national insurance contributions to access it.
In that case, I'd point out that the studies are too inconclusive to make the claim that food prices had risen so I'd err on the side of caution: that's there's no demonstrated proof of rising food prices. So no matter how much you bleat that immigration increases unemployment, you've no conclusive data to rely on. Which means your claims can be disregarded. Particularly as even it was was true, the impact on unemployment is extremely small. But it does not show this.RDM_83 again wrote: »Or lets put this more accurately, if you had data that said that food prices for example either stayed neutral according to some studies or increased in price slightly according to others, yet you claimed that the prices fell or stayed neutral what would you say the person is doing, you would say they are grossly misrepresenting the data.
IF THE DATA WAS MIXED IN THE WAY YOU INSIST ON MISREPRESENTING IT AS SOME OF THE STUDIES WOULD SHOW A DECREASE IN UNEMPLOYMENT WITH MIGRATION. Guess what they don't, the best case is that they don't increase Unemployment, when the data shows that it impacts the lower ends of society
If you're trying to make a sweeping claim (such as that immigration increases unemployment), inconclusive results don't help you.
When confronted with sources you dislike, you attempt to sidestep them by saying they're not comprehensive enough or else allege bias.RDM_83 again wrote: »Yes I have a strident tone in this post but you have consistently refused to identify with the data in your own links even when its highlighted and its actually quiet time consuming looking through these pdf's etc
Arguing on evidence and reports is time consuming, I'm not going to deny this. That's how this forum works. If you dislike data based arguments, there's plenty of other forums around which don't require such a high standard.0 -
They used to say that about the Irish as well. Take Prime Minster Disraeli for example.And it's a shame that certain people gloss over the fact that a huge chunk of these migrants/refugees in this case come from cultural backgrounds and belief systems that are often totally at odds with the beliefs, cultures and societies into which they are arriving.
Ah shure they will all integrate, none of them will end up like the current crop of first generation offspring, none of them will want to supplant the liberal laws of the land with their own backward religious misogynistic millennia old laws
Funny how much we love pretending other people are incapable of adapting to our society.
Destabilizing Europe? The Mediterranean refugees arriving this year amounted to 0.2% of the EU's population. I daresay we're able to manage.So really your aim is to try and help stablilise the Middle East, North Africa and sections of Asia by destabilising Europe.
Not this again.Not sure you will admit that there is still sizable proportion of non Syrian refugees.
I've repeatedly stated that not all refugees are Syrian.
That said, they make up around half of the Mediterranean arrivals are by far the biggest single contributor. Of the rest, most are from Eritrea, Iraq or Afghanistan and thus overwhelmingly deserving of asylum.
His deportation order has been temporarily postponed by the European Court of Human Rights as he risk torture in the country he is being deported to.A bit like the way they are now fast tracking the deportation of a non citizen would be terrorist recruitor. :rolleyes:
This is no different to the US or Australia or virtually any country which has signed the UN Convention Against Torture (which is nearly every country in the world).
Syrian refugees haven't left their wives and parents behind in Syria: as has been highlighted already, the gender balance in refugee camps is very equal. While over half of Mediterranean arrivals are men, there is a clear reason for this: the men are the best able to survivve the hazardous journey so they go on ahead so they can send for their families when they're established.Yeah they phone the Syrian internal security to get background checks on all the guys who claim to be Syrian, just so that they alert the Syrians as to who has left and where they now are.
Then the Syrians can go round and look after their women folk and parents who of course have been left behind by the strong strapping lads who have gone off to find safety in Germany, Sweden, etc.0 -
They used to say that about the Irish as well. Take Prime Minster Disraeli for example.
Funny how much we love pretending other people are incapable of adapting to our society.
Except the Irish did integrate and weren't calling for the introduction of Brehon law a few years down the road.Destabilizing Europe? The Mediterranean refugees arriving this year amounted to 0.2% of the EU's population. I daresay we're able to manage.
Ehh why not tell that to the German police in Cologne or in the little town on the Austrian border where a whistleblowing policeman has informed Bild that they are told not to detain refugee criminal suspects ?
Also tell it to the Stavanger police in Norway who are investigating the gang rape of a three year old in a refugee centre.
Or perhaps inform us how concert goers in Sweden were sexually harassed and the police covered it up for over a year ?
All because the pwoers that be did not want to inform the public lest they turn to one of the few parties that actually seem to give a rats ass about the country.
And yes that party is a right wing fascist party.
Tell you what, tell it to the women of Germany who are in their droves now removing their support for refugees.His deportation order has been temporarily postponed by the European Court of Human Rights as he risk torture in the country he is being deported to.
This is no different to the US or Australia or virtually any country which has signed the UN Convention Against Torture (which is nearly every country in the world).
Reminds me of someone ??
Oh yeah one Abu Hamza al-Masri is the one I am thinking about. :rolleyes:Syrian refugees haven't left their wives and parents behind in Syria: as has been highlighted already, the gender balance in refugee camps is very equal. While over half of Mediterranean arrivals are men, there is a clear reason for this: the men are the best able to survivve the hazardous journey so they go on ahead so they can send for their families when they're established.
In the meantime while they wait for their wives and parents to arrive they practice a bit of the old Arab pastime of "Taharrush". :rolleyes:
Folks get used to the term because if the Quislings have their way it will be coming to a city near you.I am not allowed discuss …
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In the meantime while they wait for their wives and parents to arrive they practice a bit of the old Arab pastime of "Taharrush". :rolleyes:
Folks get used to the term because if the Quislings have their way it will be coming to a city near you.
There is no 'old Arab pastime of "Taharrush"'. Stop mindlessly repeating gutter tabloidesque Islamophobia, it's not helping anyone.0 -
Mod:
jmayo and Oscar, keep it civil. This isn't a forum for going on a rant calling people quislings, there are other forums for that.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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There is a reference above to the 2006 UN symposium in Turin, and also to Kosovan refugees, in an attempt to demonstrate that the current wave of refugees from Syria, Afghanistan, and sub Saharan Africa etc. are likely to return home in significant numbers.
Kosovo I've mentioned before. Kosovans are ethnically European, look like southern Europeans, live a 24 hour car drive from Germany and, at least until recently, have had little trouble in going back there any time they wanted to. So yeah, after the war most of them rushed home to check on their homes, loved ones etc. And some of them settled down, for a while.
Regarding the Turin symposium, it states:
there is a clear relationship between rates of return migration and structural factors, such as
the long-term economic and social situation in the countries of origin. For instance, Klinthäll (2003) show
that the average probability of return migration from Sweden in a given year between 1974 and 1989 was
13 percent for Americans, 9.3 percent for Germans, 8.9 percent for Greeks, but only 1.1 percent for
Turkish immigrants.
This is only what anyone making use of their common sense would expect. And when you are dealing with refugees from the most deprived and insecure regions of the world I would expect the returns to be far outbalanced by the women and children who will surely follow the legions of young men.
And I thought this was an interesting read.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/opinion/sunday/germany-on-the-brink.html?_r=00 -
The Kosovars are ethnically European? Their ethnically Albanian, an ethnicity whose origins are highly debatable but unique. Nor do they look like "southern Europeans": they're not Slavic or Latin in their origins. They were heavily suppressed following the emergence of Milosevic (who saw no place for non-Slavs in Yugoslavia) which culminated in the Kosovo war.stringed theory wrote: »There is a reference above to the 2006 UN symposium in Turin, and also to Kosovan refugees, in an attempt to demonstrate that the current wave of refugees from Syria, Afghanistan, and sub Saharan Africa etc. are likely to return home in significant numbers.
Kosovo I've mentioned before. Kosovans are ethnically European, look like southern Europeans, live a 24 hour car drive from Germany and, at least until recently, have had little trouble in going back there any time they wanted to. So yeah, after the war most of them rushed home to check on their homes, loved ones etc. And some of them settled down, for a while.
Also, I've no idea what the distance of Germany to Kosovo has to do with anything.
What is your point here? That Kosovars are good Europeans and therefore aren't typical for refugees?
Yes: and Greeks show high levels of returning to an economic basket case which had literally just stopped being a dictatorship. By contrast, Turkey at the time was punctuated by military coups and instability. The article clearly states this in the preceding paragraph which you ignore.stringed theory wrote: »Regarding the Turin symposium, it states:
there is a clear relationship between rates of return migration and structural factors, such as
the long-term economic and social situation in the countries of origin. For instance, Klinthäll (2003) show
that the average probability of return migration from Sweden in a given year between 1974 and 1989 was
13 percent for Americans, 9.3 percent for Germans, 8.9 percent for Greeks, but only 1.1 percent for
Turkish immigrants.
This is only what anyone making use of their common sense would expect. And when you are dealing with refugees from the most deprived and insecure regions of the world I would expect the returns to be far outbalanced by the women and children who will surely follow the legions of young men.
Likewise, it concludes that most migrants want to return home and that labour migrants maintain "high rates of return migration".0 -
The Irish didn't integrate for decades: that's exactly why you saw the emergence of Irish ghettos and the Irish takeover of organised crime and political corruption in the US until gentrification took over in the mid 20th century.Except the Irish did integrate and weren't calling for the introduction of Brehon law a few years down the road.
Interestingly, a major factor in Hibernophobia was the fear that the Irish would be loyal to a foreign religion and try to impose it on society at large. Sound familiar?
I know Europeans love pretending we're Oh So Enlightened when it comes to women compared to those grasping Arabs but sadly this isn't the case.Ehh why not tell that to the German police in Cologne or in the little town on the Austrian border where a whistleblowing policeman has informed Bild that they are told not to detain refugee criminal suspects ?
Also tell it to the Stavanger police in Norway who are investigating the gang rape of a three year old in a refugee centre.
Or perhaps inform us how concert goers in Sweden were sexually harassed and the police covered it up for over a year ?
All because the pwoers that be did not want to inform the public lest they turn to one of the few parties that actually seem to give a rats ass about the country.
And yes that party is a right wing fascist party.
Tell you what, tell it to the women of Germany who are in their droves now removing their support for refugees.
When one in three European women experience physical or sexual violence, we're not in a position to get on a high horse.
Yes: if you think people should be subjected to torture, you're fortunately in a minority there. Not even the US openly espouses this.Reminds me of someone ??
Oh yeah one Abu Hamza al-Masri is the one I am thinking about. :rolleyes:
You're right, I'm a quisling to those dastardly Arabs. They're actually paying me to write this, especially to defend their ancient custom of Taharrush.In the meantime while they wait for their wives and parents to arrive they practice a bit of the old Arab pastime of "Taharrush". :rolleyes:
Folks get used to the term because if the Quislings have their way it will be coming to a city near you.0 -
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I know Europeans love pretending we're Oh So Enlightened when it comes to women compared to those grasping Arabs but sadly this isn't the case.
When one in three European women experience physical or sexual violence, we're not in a position to get on a high horse.
What absolute nonsense, so a survey by a group that depends on its findings being as are or else lose funding/jobs states that 33% of women after 15 years of age are subjected to "physical OR sexual violence" where physical violence could range from a clip on the ear from a parent to victims of crime or sexual violence can be any thing from rape to a wolf whistle, then you want to present this to show that we are just as bad as countries like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia ffs, never mind the stats being so high in countries like the uk or Sweden due to immigrants from said countries.
Why is it so hard for you to admit women are more at risk of sexual abuse and harassment in a lot of Asian countries than in Europe? It's a fact that many Asian countries are misogynist and abusive towards women.0 -
What absolute nonsense, so a survey by a group that depends on its findings being as are or else lose funding/jobs states that 33% of women after 15 years of age are subjected to "physical OR sexual violence" where physical violence could range from a clip on the ear from a parent to victims of crime or sexual violence can be any thing from rape to a wolf whistle, then you want to present this to show that we are just as bad as countries like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia ffs, never mind the stats being so high in countries like the uk or Sweden due to immigrants from said countries.
Why is it so hard for you to admit women are more at risk of sexual abuse and harassment in a lot of Asian countries than in Europe? It's a fact that many Asian countries are misogynist and abusive towards women.
As indeed they can be in Latin American and African countries. It would seem that the common denominator in all cases is certain stages of economic development rather than anything else.
http://passblue.com/2013/08/19/for-many-latin-american-women-abuse-never-lets-up/
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-33001990
http://www.latintimes.com/domestic-violence-laws-latin-america-can-legislation-curb-femicide-3208010 -
What absolute nonsense, so a survey by a group that depends on its findings being as are or else lose funding/jobs states that 33% of women after 15 years of age are subjected to "physical OR sexual violence" where physical violence could range from a clip on the ear from a parent to victims of crime or sexual violence can be any thing from rape to a wolf whistle, then you want to present this to show that we are just as bad as countries like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia ffs, never mind the stats being so high in countries like the uk or Sweden due to immigrants from said countries.
Why is it so hard for you to admit women are more at risk of sexual abuse and harassment in a lot of Asian countries than in Europe? It's a fact that many Asian countries are misogynist and abusive towards women.
Relying on your "This source doesn't prove my pre-formed opinions so I'm going to claim bias" fallback again? If you've any evidence to disprove their findings, please provide it.
Your grasping at straws is bizarre:It's also interesting that you accuse Asians of being "misogynistic and abusive" but dismiss domestic violence against women as it can be "a clip around the ear".
Likewise, 11% of European women has been sexually assaulted (which doesn't include wolf whistling) Rather, sexual violence involves forcing women into sexual intercourse by physical force, an attempt to force the woman into intercourse by physical force, sexual intercourse where the woman was unable or unwilling to give consent, or intimidated the women into sex.
here is the report if you want to read it.0 -
What absolute nonsense, so a survey by a group that depends on its findings being as are or else lose funding/jobs states that 33% of women after 15 years of age are subjected to "physical OR sexual violence" where physical violence could range from a clip on the ear from a parent to victims of crime or sexual violence can be any thing from rape to a wolf whistle, then you want to present this to show that we are just as bad as countries like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia ffs, never mind the stats being so high in countries like the uk or Sweden due to immigrants from said countries.
/..................
So you're complaing that a survey uses a wide range of things in its definition of "physical Or sexual violence" while using a country that has a wide definition of sexual violence to condemn immigrants?0 -
The Irish didn't integrate for decades: that's exactly why you saw the emergence of Irish ghettos and the Irish takeover of organised crime and political corruption in the US until gentrification took over in the mid 20th century.
You forgot how they also took over the Police forces in the likes of New York and Boston.
Oh and you forgot how they contributed hugely to the army in the Civil War and indeed in other wars.
It wasn't all Gangs of New York you know.
And you also chose to cherry pick the US and a time period.
And rather than harp on about Irish immigrants to US in 19th century why not talk about the ones that emigrated in the 20th.
Did they all live in ghettos and join marauding criminal gangs or work for ward bosses ?
And I just love how you compare muslim immigrants/migrants/refugees of the latter half of 20th century and 21st century with Irish immigrants of the 19th century.
Says a lot doesn't it.
Next you will of course tell us how advanced Islamic civilisation was in the 8th, 9th and 10th centuries. :rolleyes:I know Europeans love pretending we're Oh So Enlightened when it comes to women compared to those grasping Arabs but sadly this isn't the case.
When one in three European women experience physical or sexual violence, we're not in a position to get on a high horse.
Now you really are indulging in whataboutery.
How many European women (non muslim ones or Asian related ones) experience honour killings?
How many European girls (again non muslim, African and Asian descent ones) are subject to genital mutilation ?
How many European girls (again non muslim, African and Asian descent ones) are subject to becoming child brides ?
How many European girls/women (again non muslim, African and Asian descent ones) are at risk to being stoned to death for adultery or being victim of rape ?You're right, I'm a quisling to those dastardly Arabs. They're actually paying me to write this, especially to defend their ancient custom of Taharrush.
Only thing I will correct you on is that Taharrush may not be an ancient custom.
I think people like you are so entrenched and so vehement in your views about anti discrimination, equality for all that you would end up selling out the people of this state/Europe (be they christians, hindus, sikhs, atheists, or indeed moderate secular muslims) and the hard won rights and freedoms that iare enjoyed here just so that you don't have to admit that you may be wrong.I am not allowed discuss …
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How is this "cherry picking? You were bleating about Muslim criminals. I pointed out that your arguments were equally used against the Irish.You forgot how they also took over the Police forces in the likes of New York and Boston.
Oh and you forgot how they contributed hugely to the army in the Civil War and indeed in other wars.
It wasn't all Gangs of New York you know.
And you also chose to cherry pick the US and a time period.
As for Irish being upstanding citizens, thousands of NHS doctors are from Muslim countries , which doesn't even include the number of British Muslims. While hundreds of thousands fought for Britain in World War I.
Millions more fought for Britain in WWII.
Of course, it's not just in the US. The UK was just as happy to stereotype the Irish with magazines like Punch depicting them as drunken, simian brutes.
Winter Hill Gang? Chicago's North Side Gang? Tom Pendergast's political machine? The Westies? The New York Combine? Irish gang activity was a major factor until gentrification took over and even then continued in areas in working class Irish strongholds in New York and Boston.And rather than harp on about Irish immigrants to US in 19th century why not talk about the ones that emigrated in the 20th.
Did they all live in ghettos and join marauding criminal gangs or work for ward bosses ?
Of course not all Irish immigrants were criminals. Just like not all Muslims are rapists.
I'm not really sure what your issue is with the time period. You were complaining about Muslims immigrants. It's interesting that the exact same prejudices were once on the Irish.And I just love how you compare muslim immigrants/migrants/refugees of the latter half of 20th century and 21st century with Irish immigrants of the 19th century.
Says a lot doesn't it.
Next you will of course tell us how advanced Islamic civilisation was in the 8th, 9th and 10th centuries. :rolleyes:
Dunno: feel free to provide stats on how prevalent they are.Now you really are indulging in whataboutery.
How many European women (non muslim ones or Asian related ones) experience honour killings?
How many European girls (again non muslim, African and Asian descent ones) are subject to genital mutilation ?
How many European girls (again non muslim, African and Asian descent ones) are subject to becoming child brides ?
How many European girls/women (again non muslim, African and Asian descent ones) are at risk to being stoned to death for adultery or being victim of rape ?
Not exactly whataboutery. Of course Muslims engaging sexual assault should be criticised. But accusing Muslims of sexual assault when it's a European wide problem is pretty disingenuous.
Muslims are just 1% of Ireland's population and yet 13% of Irish women have suffered rape or attempted rape during their life. We're not in a position to accuse others of being rapists.
Mainly as Taharrush isn't a custom at all. It's a crime.Only thing I will correct you on is that Taharrush may not be an ancient custom.
I think people like you are so entrenched and so vehement in your views about anti discrimination, equality for all that you would end up selling out the people of this state/Europe (be they christians, hindus, sikhs, atheists, or indeed moderate secular muslims) and the hard won rights and freedoms that is enjoyed here just so that you don't have to admit that you may be wrong.
If caricaturising people like myself as those who would sell out Europeans makes you feel any better then go for it.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 13683
I think people like you are so entrenched and so vehement in your views about anti discrimination, equality for all that you would end up selling out the people of this state/Europe (be they christians, hindus, sikhs, atheists, or indeed moderate secular muslims) and the hard won rights and freedoms that iare enjoyed here just so that you don't have to admit that you may be wrong.
Mod Note:
Play the ball not the man. Last warning.0 -
Your grasping at straws is bizarre:It's also interesting that you accuse Asians of being "misogynistic and abusive" but dismiss domestic violence against women as it can be "a clip around the ear".
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No I never, I said it could range from a 15 year old girl getting a clip on the ear from a parent, I was simply pointing out the spread of abuse cover under the headline you used to try and paint a picture of 1 in 3 European women being victims of rape, you have now got to the point of lying to try and justify your hypothesis that we in Europe are just as bad as the muslim world in general for misogyny and sexual/physical abuse of women.0 -
No I never, I said it could range from a 15 year old girl getting a clip on the ear from a parent, I was simply pointing out the spread of abuse cover under the headline you used to try and paint a picture of 1 in 3 European women being victims of rape, you have now got to the point of lying to try and justify your hypothesis that we in Europe are just as bad as the muslim world in general for misogyny and sexual/physical abuse of women.
Well yes: that's exactly what you did. When confronted with evidence that a third of European women experience physical or sexual violence, you dismiss it as it can merely involve a "clip around the ear". Doubtless, men who batter their women think it just involves a little tap or something but this does not detract from the prevalence or seriousness of domestic violence.
I never said one third of European women were the victims of rape: I said one third experience physical or sexual violence. If you're going to be really pedantic and claim that the figure is only so high due to including minor physical assaults, can you stop dancing around the fact that over one in ten women have been victims of rape or attempted rape?
What am I lying about by the way? I've provided evidence for my claims.0 -
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Seems to me the common denominator in much of the rape and terror spreading over Europe at the minute is Islam.
A vague and generalised statement that its rather hard to address.
You might get back to me on the strange dichotomy I remarked on earlier - you condemn the definition of a wide range of offences as "physical Or sexual violence" in a report in order to dismiss its findings but use a country that defines a wide range of offences as sexual assault/rape to castigate 'immigrants' Why the two standards for essentially the same practice?0 -
As mentioned previously, Ireland has a minuscule Muslim population and yet we have a higher incidence of rapes/attempted rapes than the European average.
Violence against women is a global problem. Not just a Muslim one.
Yeah but Islamic countries have atrocious levels of sexual abuse and gender discrimination. Male and women. Their societies are deeply cranky about representation of most groups in society if you could call it that. This is what your dealing with. You and others often beret those that oppose the influx of refugees this is the situation they come from a part of the world that their religion forbids them to be role models and leaders of their countries.0 -
I assume you're talking about Muslim countries generally in this part, given your first sentence? Despite the (imo) over the top headline in this article, what you think their religion forbids doesn't always translate into practice - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/24/female-muslim-politicians_n_7621754.htmlKingBrian2 wrote: »Yeah but Islamic countries have atrocious levels of sexual abuse and gender discrimination. Male and women. Their societies are deeply cranky about representation of most groups in society if you could call it that. This is what your dealing with. You and others often beret those that oppose the influx of refugees this is the situation they come from a part of the world that their religion forbids them to be role models and leaders of their countries.0 -
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Not every country is Saudi Arabia. Turkey granted women the vote well before many European nations like Italy and France. Meanwhile, Muslim countries like Malaysia, Indonesia and Bangladesh have been electing female leaders for years.KingBrian2 wrote: »Yeah but Islamic countries have atrocious levels of sexual abuse and gender discrimination. Male and women. Their societies are deeply cranky about representation of most groups in society if you could call it that. This is what your dealing with. You and others often beret those that oppose the influx of refugees this is the situation they come from a part of the world that their religion forbids them to be role models and leaders of their countries.0 -
Not every country is Saudi Arabia. Turkey granted women the vote well before many European nations like Italy and France. Meanwhile, Muslim countries like Malaysia, Indonesia and Bangladesh have been electing female leaders for years.
In recent years and months the Saudi religious doctrine has found its home in many Muslim countries. Afghanistan, Somali, Yemen, Mali and so on. Next to Iran which is an enemy of Israel an Ally of the West the Saudi funded groups are more dangerous. We can hardly call these Nations defenders of human rights. They grant nominal privileges to the powerful in their society.0 -
KingBrian2 wrote: »In recent years and months the Saudi religious doctrine has found its home in many Muslim countries. Afghanistan, Somali, Yemen, Mali and so on. Next to Iran which is an enemy of Israel an Ally of the West the Saudi funded groups are more dangerous. We can hardly call these Nations defenders of human rights. They grant nominal privileges to the powerful in their society.
I don't think any sane person would say Saudi Arabia is a defender of human rights but they don't represent Islam any more than the American evangelicals pushing homophobia in Uganda represent Christianity.
You said that Muslim's religion prevents women from being role models or leaders: this isn't the case with numerous Muslim countries willingly electing female heads of state and government. Pakistani, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Turkey, Mali and so on.Likewise, Muslim countries like Egypt, Senegal and Tunisia have a greater proportion of female politicians than most European countries.0 -
I don't think any sane person would say Saudi Arabia is a defender of human rights but they don't represent Islam any more than the American evangelicals pushing homophobia in Uganda represent Christianity.
They don't need to be the soul authority of Islam but lets gets something clear Saudi Arabia does speak for a lot of Muslims just like the Vatican speaks for a lot of Catholics. The Queen of England speaks for a lot of Anglicans. So on, so on. We don't get these complaints about Shintoism or Taoism.
Those American evangelicals are Christians. You cannot deny that. They use that religion to poison people's beliefs. Many people have gone off rotten religion precisely because people are using their positions to show just how devout they are. Letting Saudi Arabia sit on the UN human rights committee and spread anti Shiite sectarianism is a farce and does the UN a disservice.0 -
There is no such comparison because Sunni Islam is not a hierarchical religion as the others you mention are. The Saudis may claim to speak for them but that's a different matter.KingBrian2 wrote: »They don't need to be the soul authority of Islam but lets gets something clear Saudi Arabia does speak for a lot of Muslims just like the Vatican speaks for a lot of Catholics. The Queen of England speaks for a lot of Anglicans. So on, so on. We don't get these complaints about Shintoism or Taoism.0 -
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As mentioned previously, Ireland has a minuscule Muslim population and yet we have a higher incidence of rapes/attempted rapes than the European average.
Violence against women is a global problem. Not just a Muslim one.
This is fair comment. However these gangs in Germany are a new manifestation of the problem not associated with events in Germany previously. As you have said, there is enough going on without additional problems being imported.0
This discussion has been closed.
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