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Mediterranean migrants- specific questions
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Italy still hasn't formed a govt, but of the 3 main contenders involved (5 Star, Berlusconi and Northern League) the only thing they have in common is that none of them want Italy being used as a dumping ground for migrants.Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »and thus continue the annual taxi service up to Sicily or somewhere.
The Italian electorate has spoken.
If the LE S.Beckett takes on a shipload of people off the North African coast, they may have to think about ferrying them to Marseille, or back to Haulbowline Co. Cork.
That's assuming the Navy are still refusing to consider the obvious option ie putting them back on the nearest shoreline.0 -
Italy still hasn't formed a govt, but of the 3 main contenders involved (5 Star, Berlusconi and Northern League) the only thing they have in common is that none of them want Italy being used as a dumping ground for migrants.
The Italian electorate has spoken.
If the LE S.Beckett takes on a shipload of people off the North African coast, they may have to think about ferrying them to Marseille, or back to Haulbowline Co. Cork.
That's assuming the Navy are still refusing to consider the obvious option ie putting them back on the nearest shoreline.
Actually having been on holiday last year in Tuscany, it was noticable just how many Africans were wandering around especially some of the small towns.
And yes they were Africans and not Italian natives.
It is unbelievable how slow some people in Europe and indeed around here have been to cop on that we just cannot take the numbers.I am not allowed discuss …
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Italy still hasn't formed a govt, but of the 3 main contenders involved (5 Star, Berlusconi and Northern League) the only thing they have in common is that none of them want Italy being used as a dumping ground for migrants.
The Italian electorate has spoken.
If the LE S.Beckett takes on a shipload of people off the North African coast, they may have to think about ferrying them to Marseille, or back to Haulbowline Co. Cork.
That's assuming the Navy are still refusing to consider the obvious option ie putting them back on the nearest shoreline.
None of the Irish Navy ships could safely navigate the Atlantic back to Ireland with several hundred emergency rescues on board. We either participate by dropping them off on an EU shore in the Med or we dont participate, in that way, at all.0 -
None of the Irish Navy ships could safely navigate the Atlantic back to Ireland with several hundred emergency rescues on board. We either participate by dropping them off on an EU shore in the Med or we dont participate, in that way, at all.
Why not participate by dropping them back to the Libyan shore they departed from? I think we could all agree on that.0 -
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Are they actually going to do anything different than “medicine sans frontier” don’t already do? I.e. ferry people from Libya to Italy0
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Macron gave an interview on April 15th to French TV where he spoke about mass migration to Europe and the French reaction. The interview was obviously in French, but his comments were to the effect that "We are facing an unprecedented migration phenomenon", and that the problem faced by Europe has been described excellently by Stephen Smith, in his book 'The Rush to Europe'. Macron went so far to describe the effect on Europe as being a bombshell.
Stephen Smith is of the view that the African population of Europe will rise from 9 million to between 150 and 200 million in the next 30 years. This has to be understood in the context of a total EU population of between 481 million and 538 million in 2050 predicted by the Pew Research Institute - that research also projects significant Muslim populations within the EU by 2050, some of which will overlap with African population figures. As the new Europeans wont be evenly distributed across the EU and the indigenous Europeans will be older and greyer, the demographics of western European countries such as France will be historically altered if projections are in any way accurate. Macron seems to believe they are.
Smith is projecting uninterrupted mass migration from Africa into Europe, due to African population growth, increasing prosperity (in Africa) and the trade off of an easy life in Europe vs a harder life in Africa. Smith's other prediction is that with this level of mass migration into Europe, the welfare state will become unsustainable. There simply wont be the productivity to pay for those who cannot sustain themselves. The new Europeans will not boost prosperity, they will drain it. It remains to be seen how peace could be maintained in such a scenario of massive social change and collapsing welfare states. The answer in places like Yugoslavia has been massive repression. Britain is already convicting teenagers of hate crimes for quoting rap songs, so that process of repression is already beginning. A price worth paying for multiculturalism I suppose.
I don't think anyone would welcome such a scenario, but we are sleepwalking into it on a road paved with good intentions. Macron at least seems to be aware of what the prospects are if this open door policy is continued indefinitely. He is speaking about it, which is more than can be said about Merkel. It remains to be seen what he and the other EU leaders are going to do about it but they cant pretend they don't know about it at least.0 -
Macron gave an interview on April 15th to French TV where he spoke about mass migration to Europe and the French reaction. The interview was obviously in French, but his comments were to the effect that "We are facing an unprecedented migration phenomenon", and that the problem faced by Europe has been described excellently by Stephen Smith, in his book 'The Rush to Europe'. Macron went so far to describe the effect on Europe as being a bombshell.
Stephen Smith is of the view that the African population of Europe will rise from 9 million to between 150 and 200 million in the next 30 years. This has to be understood in the context of a total EU population of between 481 million and 538 million in 2050 predicted by the Pew Research Institute - that research also projects significant Muslim populations within the EU by 2050, some of which will overlap with African population figures. As the new Europeans wont be evenly distributed across the EU and the indigenous Europeans will be older and greyer, the demographics of western European countries such as France will be historically altered if projections are in any way accurate. Macron seems to believe they are.
Smith is projecting uninterrupted mass migration from Africa into Europe, due to African population growth, increasing prosperity (in Africa) and the trade off of an easy life in Europe vs a harder life in Africa. Smith's other prediction is that with this level of mass migration into Europe, the welfare state will become unsustainable. There simply wont be the productivity to pay for those who cannot sustain themselves. The new Europeans will not boost prosperity, they will drain it. It remains to be seen how peace could be maintained in such a scenario of massive social change and collapsing welfare states. The answer in places like Yugoslavia has been massive repression. Britain is already convicting teenagers of hate crimes for quoting rap songs, so that process of repression is already beginning. A price worth paying for multiculturalism I suppose.
I don't think anyone would welcome such a scenario, but we are sleepwalking into it on a road paved with good intentions. Macron at least seems to be aware of what the prospects are if this open door policy is continued indefinitely. He is speaking about it, which is more than can be said about Merkel. It remains to be seen what he and the other EU leaders are going to do about it but they cant pretend they don't know about it at least.
The reality we face is that the borders are Iron tight and guarded aggressively or Europe will collapse under the pressure.
Smith is right on the scale of the problem and the speed at which it will occur, Europeans will have snapped long before 2030 though
The Left will retreat to gated suburbs or liquidate assets and go Stateside.
People will treat it as a conflict, pro migration groups misjudge how attached people are to their cultures, nations, their pride in the Social State.
It will not be pretty.0 -
The reality we face is that the borders are Iron tight and guarded aggressively or Europe will collapse under the pressure.
Smith is right on the scale of the problem and the speed at which it will occur, Europeans will have snapped long before 2030 though
The Left will retreat to gated suburbs or liquidate assets and go Stateside.
People will treat it as a conflict, pro migration groups misjudge how attached people are to their cultures, nations, their pride in the Social State.
It will not be pretty.
That assumes stateside wont have collapsed before that and the American left isnt seeking sanctuary in Europe. White Americans are already a minority in the age groups that matter (the young), and you can see the increasing division and civic breakdown that has resulted as identity groups have flourished, much as in the former Yugoslavia. It is not going to improve. The rage/angst that propelled Trump to power will only grow as the US becomes an increasingly divided country where White Americans and non-White Americans, particularly Hispanics have directly opposed interests and narratives.
Its quite possible that "blue" and "red" states will increasingly pull away from each other, weakening central authority and potentially breaking it. We are seeing states thumbing their nose at Trump and his policies. That sets precedents. Republicans have done the same in North Carolina, reducing the powers of the Governor when they knew they would lose it. The Democrats, the part of identity politics, is so divided amongst these groups that they could not settle on a single speaker to respond to Trumps State of the Union this year - there had to be 5 to speak for each major subgroup of the Democrats. None of this speaks to trust or common identity, the belief that the other party (or even your party colleagues) might disagree with you but is still "us", still has your families interests at heart. US politics is increasingly tribal warfare by other means. This sort of bitterness, and the resistance to the Trump presidency will do lasting damage to the office that wont be undone just because a Democrat is elected.
So the US is much further along the path that Western Europe is taking (though its not an even distance: the UK is closer to the US with all the bile and division Brexit is drawing out into the open). If the left do retreat abroad, it will be to Eastern Europe, which seem to be wisely opting out of the Western Europe's determination to invite the world to their countries.0 -
How did you get here and why didnt you claim asylum in the first safe country.0
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FingerDeKat wrote: »Actually having been on holiday last year in Tuscany, it was noticable just how many Africans were wandering around especially some of the small towns.
And yes they were Africans and not Italian natives.
It is unbelievable how slow some people in Europe and indeed around here have been to cop on that we just cannot take the numbers.
Did you interact with them ? How were they ?
Did you try looking at them as people and not Africans/Italians?
Yes the interaction often was to tell them I did not want to buy their overpriced stuff.
The missus did buy something, but later found out it was twice the price in a supermarket.
But she was happy enough to help out a Sengalese bloke trying to make ends meet.
She also got our girls hair braided by one African lady.
And I didn't see anyone local or tourist abusing them if that is what you are hinting about.
And they were fine to deal if a little pushy, but what the fook has that got to do with the issue.
Europe cannot cope with unfethered immigration.
When the fook are people going to cop on we cannot take in half of Africa, the Middle East and Central/Western Asia.
We simply do not have the resources.
And that is not even mentioning the incompatible cultural and ideological background that a fair chunk of these migrants hail from.I am not allowed discuss …
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The problems of the 3rd world are not our own let them deal with their own problems shall we we have enough of our own without uncontrollable numbers of African migrants adding to it as well.0
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Not to mention any Synths that may go astray or develop self-will and super conciousness, whilst also taking up all the manual jobs over the next decade.
Luckily the National Synth Detection Unit is a specially equipped task force, set up by the Ministry of Special Technologies to debug and license these.
https://www.nsdu.co.uk/ : Ask Alexa to "Start Human Test" / Google Assistant "Talk to Human Test"
(channel 4, SE3, E1, 17/05/17 21:00hrs)
// Robotic-automation will take 50% of all current roles by 2030, thereby reducing the need for most traditional migrant or unskilled workforces.0 -
2015 - "We're not doing enough to help the migrants."
2018 - "We should sink the migrants' boats."
2030 - "Mimi binafsi kuwakaribisha mabwana wetu wapya wa Afrika!"
2040 - "Arbeit Macht Frei."
2045 - "Kumbaya, my lord, kumbayaaaa."
(satirical timeline)
But seriously, why is the migrant crisis only happening now, or purported to be? Africa has long been significantly worse off than Europe, and welfare states have existed since the early 20th century. I mean, I've played Civilisation, and sometimes one country discovers sea-faring technology way later than the rest, but this is ridiculous...0 -
I haven't heard much about the Mediterranean crisis this year at all, they're still coming, but slower
figures as of last week:
https://reliefweb.int/report/italy/mediterranean-migrant-arrivals-reach-23715-2018-deaths-reach-61923,715 migrants and refugees entered Europe by sea through the first 125 days of 2018, with about 39 per cent arriving both in Italy and Greece, with the remainder arriving in Spain (20%).
This compares with 49,807 arrivals across the region through the same period last year and about 185,000 at this time in 2016. In other words: Mediterranean arrivals at this point in 2018 are running at under half last year’s level on this date, and about 13 per cent of 2016 arrivals at this point in the year
So far this year, more than 5,947 migrants have been returned to Libyan shore by the Libyan Coast Guard..0 -
Matteo Salvini: Interior minister's claims about immigration http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-44397372
In this article, on the map you can see that there is a very significant number of migrants arriving from Bangladesh to Europe.
Rich Asian countries such as Singapore, Japan, Korea etc are closer places they could apply for asylum. Could it be that Europe now has an international reputation as a “soft touch “0 -
Also how much of the blame for all of this can be laid at the door of Britain and France destabilisation of Libya?
And consequently don’t they have a bigger responsibility for sorting out the mess they caused?0 -
Also how much of the blame for all of this can be laid at the door of Britain and France destabilisation of Libya?
Quite a bit, but UK and France were reacting to a civil war in Libya. It was not a peaceful state randomly attacked. The Libyan government forces were bearing down on Benghazi openly threatening to massacre the inhabitants.
Sure, Europe could have sat back and watched that unfold with 24/7 media coverage. Likely it would have been in Europe's interests to have a strongman dictator in charge today, rather than the current mess. But that assumes the regime could re-establish control, something which has taken many years in Syria, with Russian support.And consequently don’t they have a bigger responsibility for sorting out the mess they caused?
No, not if it is not in the interests of their citizens. And short of neo-colonialism with UK/French forces setting up a puppet government there is little that can be done that is not already being done.
Separately, it has been good to see Italy closed its ports to the NGO/criminal people traffickers. This policy should be continued and broadened, as it will quickly bring an end to the trafficking of people by the NGO/criminals, and all the attendant misery that underpins it. I see the Bavarian CSU is taking a leaf from Orban's book and is threatening to close Germany's southern border. Both these messages need to be broadcast to the sources of the mass migration across the Mediterranean. Merkel invited them in 2015, sparking the rush. In the same way, they need to understand that Merkels invitation is rescinded, ending the rush.
It's clear to see that for all the pariah status Orban is given, he and the Visegrad group have won the argument on how to address the migrant crisis. Europe's policies matter: Hungary built a fence and illegal border crossing fell dramatically. Europe can achieve similar results if they pursue sensible policies.0 -
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5832813/Migrants-stand-threaten-mutiny-Med.html
Migrants creating problems before they arrive .
"Students in Spain have been forced to leave their homes despite having paid their accommodation fees to make way for migrants who just arrived on the Aquarius rescue ship in Valencia." https://t.co/lCzWoZXiRQ
How long will this government last ?0 -
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5832813/Migrants-stand-threaten-mutiny-Med.html
Migrants creating problems before they arrive .
"Students in Spain have been forced to leave their homes despite having paid their accommodation fees to make way for migrants who just arrived on the Aquarius rescue ship in Valencia." https://t.co/lCzWoZXiRQ
How long will this government last ?
The migrants haven't created the problem here. F*cking infowars. Are you serious?0 -
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seachto7 Care to explain why instead of a one liner claiming its infowars ?0
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I'm pro-immigration and largely in favour of open borders, but I find it absurd that the concept of democratic self-determination is lost on so many people - if the population of a particular country democratically votes to close their borders and not accept any immigration for whatever reason - population control, avoiding wage stagnation, cultural protectionism, whatever - then they have the absolute right to do so. That's what democracy and national sovereignty actually mean. It may be regarded as a heartless, selfish policy and to a large extent I'd agree, but then I believe a lot of capitalism - for instance, allowing housing to be treated as a commodity and not a public necessity - also counts as heartless and selfish, yet here we are.
Some people simply don't want one single migrant allowed into the EU, usually because of either population / economic reasons (which are one and the same when it comes to immigration) or because of cultural nationalism (we do things this way and we don't want too many people who do things that way in case they fundamentally change how our society operates as a whole). Neither of these are racist or unacceptable political positions to hold - they are ideologically right wing positions, and if people want to vote yes to those positions, that's their right as members of a democratic society.
There's so much beating around the bush in these discussions that it's honestly absurd. Take the debate above between Seachto and Danzy - Danzy has said "they have no business or right to be in Spain or Europe for that matter" in response to Seachto stating that "the migrants aren't the problem". Presumably Seachto is implying that their actual presence in the country isn't the issue, but rather how the government chooses to deal with that. But this is a fundamentally ridiculous discussion, because the two positions aren't mutually exclusive - Seachto would be correct to suggest that the government could indeed have chosen a different policy direction, so in the immediate instance, the migrants' presence in the country isn't the problem. However, Danzy's response would imply that his/her belief is that the correct government response is to simply not allow them into the country at all - and I'm assuming Seachto and others would have a fundamental issue with this as a policy. But it's never openly discussed in those terms, it's always danced around using proxy arguments and semantics.
To put it simply, there needs to be an out and out debate where "I don't want literally any foreigners coming into the country at all because we're overpopulated and wages are already too low" or "I don't want literally any foreigners from socially authoritarian countries comint into the country at all because we're a socially liberal society and I worry that they'll dilute this if they become a political voting bloc" are recognised as legitimate political stances for people to hold rather than being totally ignored, or automatically labelled as fringe / racist / radical and therefore not actually engaged with. This is the root of the problem and in my view one of the reasons right wing populism is the way it is - their talking points, beliefs, and ideology is literally being either ignored outright or accused of being something that it isn't in order to make it go away. That is never going to work.
EDIT: I don't see myself ever becoming anti-immigration, but I have to say that this ridiculous and in my view unacceptable mistreatment and mislabelling of those who are is pissing me off so much that I'm more and more reluctant to join the debate on the side of the pro-immigration folk, if they aren't willing to actually address the legitimate political beliefs and fears of their opposition instead of continuously throwing mud.0 -
hatrickpatrick wrote: »I'm pro-immigration and largely in favour of open borders, but I find it absurd that the concept of democratic self-determination is lost on so many people - if the population of a particular country democratically votes to close their borders and not accept any immigration for whatever reason - population control, avoiding wage stagnation, cultural protectionism, whatever - then they have the absolute right to do so. That's what democracy and national sovereignty actually mean. It may be regarded as a heartless, selfish policy and to a large extent I'd agree, but then I believe a lot of capitalism - for instance, allowing housing to be treated as a commodity and not a public necessity - also counts as heartless and selfish, yet here we are.
Some people simply don't want one single migrant allowed into the EU, usually because of either population / economic reasons (which are one and the same when it comes to immigration) or because of cultural nationalism (we do things this way and we don't want too many people who do things that way in case they fundamentally change how our society operates as a whole). Neither of these are racist or unacceptable political positions to hold - they are ideologically right wing positions, and if people want to vote yes to those positions, that's their right as members of a democratic society.
There's so much beating around the bush in these discussions that it's honestly absurd. Take the debate above between Seachto and Danzy - Danzy has said "they have no business or right to be in Spain or Europe for that matter" in response to Seachto stating that "the migrants aren't the problem". Presumably Seachto is implying that their actual presence in the country isn't the issue, but rather how the government chooses to deal with that. But this is a fundamentally ridiculous discussion, because the two positions aren't mutually exclusive - Seachto would be correct to suggest that the government could indeed have chosen a different policy direction, so in the immediate instance, the migrants' presence in the country isn't the problem. However, Danzy's response would imply that his/her belief is that the correct government response is to simply not allow them into the country at all - and I'm assuming Seachto and others would have a fundamental issue with this as a policy. But it's never openly discussed in those terms, it's always danced around using proxy arguments and semantics.
To put it simply, there needs to be an out and out debate where "I don't want literally any foreigners coming into the country at all because we're overpopulated and wages are already too low" or "I don't want literally any foreigners from socially authoritarian countries comint into the country at all because we're a socially liberal society and I worry that they'll dilute this if they become a political voting bloc" are recognised as legitimate political stances for people to hold rather than being totally ignored, or automatically labelled as fringe / racist / radical and therefore not actually engaged with. This is the root of the problem and in my view one of the reasons right wing populism is the way it is - their talking points, beliefs, and ideology is literally being either ignored outright or accused of being something that it isn't in order to make it go away. That is never going to work.
EDIT: I don't see myself ever becoming anti-immigration, but I have to say that this ridiculous and in my view unacceptable mistreatment and mislabelling of those who are is pissing me off so much that I'm more and more reluctant to join the debate on the side of the pro-immigration folk, if they aren't willing to actually address the legitimate political beliefs and fears of their opposition instead of continuously throwing mud.
Excellent post, in content and construction.
I would just say that while opposing large scale immigration for Cultural reasons is a right wing position, that opposing it for economic reasons is often a left one or it used to be.
The large increase in migration over the last 30 years in the Western World was only possible with Neoliberalism as the model.
Even a return to a more Social democratic economic model will lead to a severe restriction on migration.
Until questioning the benefits of migration is not viewed as a heretical act on the Left, ever greater number of voters will avoid them.
It is existential for the Left in much of Europe at this stage but there is a doubling down rather than reconsidering or just listening.0 -
seachto7 Care to explain why instead of a one liner claiming its infowars ?
Personally wouldn't trust anything they said, checked after you posted it and all I could see was them and RT & Sputnik reporting on it.
Short while later it's up elsewhere."They told us 12 hours in advance," said student Paula Sanchis. "They met us at seven in the afternoon and said that those of us who had finished (exams) should return to our family homes, and those who had not, should look for a place to stay."
http://www.euronews.com/2018/06/22/spanish-students-had-12-hours-to-leave-dorms-due-to-aquarius-migrants
Some students force to look for somewhere to stay while still doing exams is beyond ****."They first told us that we should leave if we had finished, and later, they told us to leave in any case because (the Aquarius migrants) were going to arrive with contagious diseases," she said.
"If we wanted to collect some of our things we (had to go) with long sleeves, long trousers, or winter clothes," she added.
Not sure what to make of that second part.0 -
Personally wouldn't trust anything they said, checked after you posted it and all I could see was them and RT & Sputnik reporting on it.
Short while later it's up elsewhere.
http://www.euronews.com/2018/06/22/spanish-students-had-12-hours-to-leave-dorms-due-to-aquarius-migrants
Some students force to look for somewhere to stay while still doing exams is beyond ****.
Not sure what to make of that second part.
It is because the migrants tend to get very excited on seeing women in shorts, bare arms etc and it can be a serious problem for the women, to put it mildly.
Standard practice at this stage in many areas.0 -
So the implication of this advice is that the migrants will attack and assault or molest women in ordinary western european summer attire and the women need to cover up, sharia style, to avoid these attacks????
What else will western european residents have to do to appease their new and mostly unwanted neighbours??0 -
There is a very good opinion article in today,s Irish examiner about the election of alternative parties to power in countries across Europe & the failure of the left, this one paragraph nails it down/ sums it up quite well." Many factors underlie the left’s decline, including the dissolution of the traditional working class. But one of the most important reasons is as grim as it is simple: European voters are increasingly opposed to immigration, and do not trust the left to limit it. "
If the left wants to stop alternative parties being elected to positions of power in other parts of Europe, they have a choice to keep ignoring people,s concerns about Immigration & play the race card about it or listen to people to hear out their concerns.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/europes-left-needs-new-policies-on-immigration-851064.html0 -
So the implication of this advice is that the migrants will attack and assault or molest women in ordinary western european summer attire and the women need to cover up, sharia style, to avoid these attacks????
What else will western european residents have to do to appease their new and mostly unwanted neighbours??
nothing, your standard migrant isn't a threat to anyone just treat them as you would anyone else0 -
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Immigration of culturally compatible hard working people is good immigration of culturally incompatible non hardworking people is bad unfortunately its far too much of the latter group that are coming to these shores which in turn is creating more ghettos and no go zones not to mention the links to terrorism many of them have its completely destabilising society allowing them to come here in such vast numbers.0
This discussion has been closed.
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