Mediterranean migrants- specific questions

laoch na mona

Mutant z wrote: »

Immigration of culturally compatible hard working people is good immigration of culturally incompatible non hardworking people is bad unfortunately its far too much of the latter group that are coming to these shores which in turn is creating more ghettos and no go zones not to mention the links to terrorism many of them have its completely destabilising society allowing them to come here in such vast numbers.

The Irish were ragarded as lazy and feckless by the brits and Americans, surely this means the Irish shouldn't be let into Britain or the US

Mutant z

laoch na mona wrote: »

Mutant z wrote: »

Immigration of culturally compatible hard working people is good immigration of culturally incompatible non hardworking people is bad unfortunately its far too much of the latter group that are coming to these shores which in turn is creating more ghettos and no go zones not to mention the links to terrorism many of them have its completely destabilising society allowing them to come here in such vast numbers.

The Irishwere rarded as lazy and feckless by the brits and Americans, surely this means the Irish shouldn't be let into Britain or the US

If that's the situation then yes they should be thrown out the same rules must apply to Irish immigrants in the USA and UK as to immigrants in this country.

Danzy

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

There is a very good opinion article in today,s Irish examiner about the election of alternative parties to power in countries across Europe & the failure of the left, this one paragraph nails it down/ sums it up quite well.



If the left wants to stop alternative parties being elected to positions of power in other parts of Europe, they have a choice to keep ignoring people,s concerns about Immigration & play the race card about it or listen to people to hear out their concerns.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/europes-left-needs-new-policies-on-immigration-851064.html

The modern left Limit it. They expect them to accelerate it.

Danzy

creeper1 wrote: »

Also how much of the blame for all of this can be laid at the door of Britain and France destabilisation of Libya?

And consequently don’t they have a bigger responsibility for sorting out the mess they caused?

Libyan intervention was wrong but gaddafi was gone anyway.

It certainly would not be at the same scale if he was back shooting migrants who crossed.

Besides why should we have to double down on taking migrants ,helping the Neolibs further.

That ensures the working class rebellion seen in Brexit,Austria,Hungary,Italy etc will accelerate. Do you want that?

Infini

In all honestly the general anti-migration sentiment is mainly down to the feeling that those coming from Africa/Mid-East will be culturally incomparable and cause trouble down the line as seen in some cases in England and such. It's generally not a personal issue but more a feeling that this will come back to bite people down the line and no one want's the likes of Burka clad women or those who push a regressive culture in this country. The likes of what's happening in the Mid-East cannot be solely blamed on the West there's plenty of corruption and internal shenanigans from the locals that have helped to create this.

You wouldn't generally get the same thing from say those from an Eastern European background (partially being EU and partially because the Poles and such are a generally sound lot) or those from a Far Eastern background like China or Thailand as at least from my own PoV they generally just get on with thing's and their own culture is far more similar and able to integrate into ours with little to no issue.

As for the migrant's my own opinion is not to let them into our own port's not out of cruelty but because there need's to be a serious deterrent to illegal entry. The Italian's aren't wrong in denying the ships entry to their port's they've taken far too many at this point and honestly they should be sent back to Libya. As cruel as it might seem the only way to stop this happening and those lives put at risk is to make it so that there's no chance of making it to Europe that way and anyone who's found be sent back the way they came. Otherwise it will just continue. Even in the state's the problem with their approach is that they arrest and split up the families where as if they were simply round thrm up as they crossed and escorted back to and over the Mexican border it would be less of an issue.

4068ac1elhodqr

laoch na mona wrote: »

The Irishwere rarded as lazy and feckless by the brits and Americans, surely this means the Irish shouldn't be let into Britain or the US

Gibberish. They only built their cities, laid the roads, fought their wars and nursed their sick. Your spelling and use of grammar however, is feckless.

Infini wrote: »

In all honestly the general anti-migration sentiment is mainly down to the feeling that those coming from Africa/Mid-East will be culturally incomparable and cause trouble down the line as seen in some cases in England and such. It's generally not a personal issue but more a feeling that this will come back to bite people down the line and no one want's the likes of Burka clad women or those who push a regressive culture in this country. The likes of what's happening in the Mid-East cannot be solely blamed on the West there's plenty of corruption and internal shenanigans from the locals that have helped to create this.

You wouldn't generally get the same thing from say those from an Eastern European background (partially being EU and partially because the Poles and such are a generally sound lot) or those from a Far Eastern background like China or Thailand as at least from my own PoV they generally just get on with thing's and their own culture is far more similar and able to integrate into ours with little to no issue.

As for the migrant's my own opinion is not to let them into our own port's not out of cruelty but because there need's to be a serious deterrent to illegal entry. The Italian's aren't wrong in denying the ships entry to their port's they've taken far too many at this point and honestly they should be sent back to Libya. As cruel as it might seem the only way to stop this happening and those lives put at risk is to make it so that there's no chance of making it to Europe that way and anyone who's found be sent back the way they came. Otherwise it will just continue. Even in the state's the problem with their approach is that they arrest and split up the families where as if they were simply round thrm up as they crossed and escorted back to and over the Mexican border it would be less of an issue.

Agree, you only have to look at the slow, awkward, social progress of places like S'Arabia, who only this week (2018) let women drive cars. Well la de da.

Many of my the folks on my road are from the Visegrád Four area, who all speak great english, work every hour of the day, and are properly pleasent folks.

The 'V4' rightly boycotted the EU mini-summit on migration, as the organisers had the closing summary press release already printed out, before the event even took place.

Jamie2k9

Very bad decision to accept more economic migrants today by our Goverment, worst thing is all political parties here would accept thousands more if they had the chance.

4068ac1elhodqr

French President Emmanuel Macron said his country would take in some of those on board the vessel, but he also accused the rescue ship of "playing into the hands of (people) smugglers".

In the same RTE article, they were correctly refered to as 'migrants' and not 'refugees'.
https://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2018/0626/973368-taoiseach-defends-naval-service-role-in-migrant-rescues/

"I am very proud of the work that our navy and our Defence Forces are doing in the Mediterranean, rescuing migrants from the Mediterranean sea, and training the Libyan Coast Guard to do what a Coast Guard should be able to do which is secure it's own seas,"

the Taoiseach said.

He also added 'they should not be encouraged', yet accepting 25 is sending out exactly that message.

Danzy

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Very bad decision to accept more economic migrants today by our Goverment, worst thing is all political parties here would accept thousands more if they had the chance.

We are having our Thatcher revolution.

The Maggie was all cold and tough but the new generation are all about solidarity and empathy. Great salespeople.

MayoSalmon

Jamie2k9 wrote:

Very bad decision to accept more economic migrants today by our Goverment, worst thing is all political parties here would accept thousands more if they had the chance.

Minuscule problem in the grander scheme of things...just look at the Mexico border or Southern Italy.

Danzy

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Minuscule problem in the grander scheme of things...just look at the Mexico border or Southern Italy.

The scale will only grow and grow in all parts unless people organize and push back, that seems to be happening more and more.

Jamie2k9

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Minuscule problem in the grander scheme of things...just look at the Mexico border or Southern Italy.

If only we had such good border patrols. This 25 along with 4,000 more (excluding family allowed to move after) + the regular economic immigrants applying or should I say refuges.

MayoSalmon

Danzy wrote:

The scale will only grow and grow in all parts unless people organize and push back, that seems to be happening more and more.

And even if it grows to say 30,000 I still think it ranks as probably one of the lowest problems this country faces.

Ronaldinho

MayoSalmon wrote: »

And even if it grows to say 30,000 I still think it ranks as probably one of the lowest problems this country faces.

Without wanting to sound crass.. if they plan on taking 30,000 then I hope they've managed to cut the costs from the 160,000 p.a. mentioned in relation to those settled in Ballaghadreen.

Danzy

MayoSalmon wrote: »

And even if it grows to say 30,000 I still think it ranks as probably one of the lowest problems this country faces.

You dislike some parts of Neoliberalism but like this bit.

The people backing this are the same one who believe that Society exists to serve the economy only and is hardly a thing at all beyond that.

Some of their hanger ons stick a label, call it Internationalism or solidarity and happily go laong with it.

MayoSalmon

Danzy wrote: »

You dislike some parts of Neoliberalism but like this bit.

The people backing this are the same one who believe that Society exists to serve the economy only and is hardly a thing at all beyond that.

Some of their hanger ons stick a label, call it Internationalism or solidarity and happily go laong with it.

Look I don't "like" it, I am indifferent to it and I just don't view it as an immediate concern for Irish society currently.

creeper1

I hate listening to this “ the Irish emigrated so now it’s Africans and Arabs turn”

If we take the Irish as being Europeans then let’s just say immigration into the Americas by Europeans wasn’t that beneficial to the natives.

Matteo Salvini has made two points

1. The rescue ships are encouraging people to take risks because people are now expecting them to be there. Indeed the people smugglers bank on it.

2. Only women and children can qualify as refugees.

Number 2 may seem harsh but I think it’s clear any rescue ships must return to the African coast.

Indeed the latest news of refusing to give these ships docking permission has at least slowed the influx because the ngo can’t make the same number of turnarounds of transports.

laoch na mona

creeper1 wrote: »

I hate listening to this “ the Irish emigrated so now it’s Africans and Arabs turn”

If we take the Irish as being Europeans then let’s just say immigration into the Americas by Europeans wasn’t that beneficial to the natives.

Matteo Salvini has made two points

1. The rescue ships are encouraging people to take risks because people are now expecting them to be there. Indeed the people smugglers bank on it.

2. Only women and children can qualify as refugees.

Number may seem harsh but I think it’s clear any rescue ships must return to the African coast.

Indeed the latest news of refusing to give these ships docking permission has at least slowed the influx because the ngo can’t make the same number of turnarounds of transports.

1. people will take the risk regardless, the ships are a response to the fact people are attempting an impossible crossing and a civilian rescue is as good as a navel one, in actual numbers the number of attempted crossings has gone down as the rescue ships have became more prominent in the last 2 years before any ship was refused docking

2. that's just false, international law doesn't discriminate based on gender

On the African point, there's a thing called non refoulemont which says people cannot be sent back to a country where human rights violations are likely, returning people to Libya violates this by any assesment

Mutant z

Those who have caused this mess should take full responsibility for it why should a small country like Ireland destroy its culture because of the mess others have caused the majority of the population don't want this yet its being forced on them against their will what hope is there for the future of Irish culture if more and more migrants are allowed to come here which they have zero ties to.

laoch na mona

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Very bad decision to accept more economic migrants today by our Goverment, worst thing is all political parties here would accept thousands more if they had the chance.

I've bad news for you,

much more than 25 visas would be approved in a standard week

laoch na mona

Mutant z wrote: »

Those who have caused this mess should take full responsibility for it .

Yes and Ireland played a role

Mutant z wrote: »

why should a small country like Ireland destroy its culture .

An bhfuil aon eolas eile agat faoi an rud seo? Is cultúr beomhar é cultúr Éireannach. Níl muid faoi bhaigart ó aon daoine eile

In case your concern for culture is a red herring, migrants don't threaten our culture, In fact government indifference and a legacy of colonialism is the biggest threat to irish culture

Mutant z wrote: »

because of the mess others have caused the majority of the population don't want this yet its being forced on them against their will what hope is there for the future of Irish culture if more and more migrants are allowed to come here which they have zero ties to.

culture will exist as long as society exists, we live in a globalised world which involves people moving for work, most people are companionate and at least have basic human decency and understand that people risking their lives crossing the Mediterranean have a good reason for doing so.

Mutant z

laoch na mona wrote: »

creeper1 wrote: »

I hate listening to this “ the Irish emigrated so now it’s Africans and Arabs turn”

If we take the Irish as being Europeans then let’s just say immigration into the Americas by Europeans wasn’t that beneficial to the natives.

Matteo Salvini has made two points

1. The rescue ships are encouraging people to take risks because people are now expecting them to be there. Indeed the people smugglers bank on it.

2. Only women and children can qualify as refugees.

Number may seem harsh but I think it’s clear any rescue ships must return to the African coast.

Indeed the latest news of refusing to give these ships docking permission has at least slowed the influx because the ngo can’t make the same number of turnarounds of transports.

1. people will take the risk regardless, the ships are a response to the fact people are attempting an impossible crossing and a civilian rescue is as good as a navel one, in actual numbers the number of attempted crossings has gone down as the rescue ships have became more prominent in the last 2 years before any ship was refused docking

2. that's just false, international law doesn't discriminate based on gender

On the African point, there's a thing called non refoulemont which says people cannot be sent back to a country where human rights violations are likely, returning people to Libya violates this by any assesment

The percentage of genuine refugees are a tiny fraction of the number the vast bulk are economic migrants and in any case asylum should be sought in the first safe place of entry the fact that so many have by passed that to try to get here says it all. The fact is Ireland or its people were not responsible for this miss so shouldn't suffer for it let those who are responsible for this mess clean it up leave the indigenous Irish people and their cultural heritage alone they don't deserve this.

Mutant z

laoch na mona wrote: »

Mutant z wrote: »

Those who have caused this mess should take full responsibility for it .

Yes and Ireland played a role

Mutant z wrote: »

why should a small country like Ireland destroy its culture .

An bhfuil aon eolas eile agat faoi an rud seo? Is cultúr beomhar é cultúr Éireannach. Níl muid faoi bhaigart ó aon daoine eile

In case your concern for culture is a red herring, migrants don't threaten our culture, In fact government indifference and a legacy of colonialism is the biggest threat to irish culture

Mutant z wrote: »

because of the mess others have caused the majority of the population don't want this yet its being forced on them against their will what hope is there for the future of Irish culture if more and more migrants are allowed to come here which they have zero ties to.

culture will exist as long as society exists, we live in a globalised world which involves people moving for work, most people are companionate and at least have basic human decency and understand that people risking their lives crossing the Mediterranean have a good reason for doing so.

They have a reason to do so because idiots like Merkel are telling them to come Europe even at the risk of drowning how crazy is that woman and the rest of her cronies at all that they are pushing this madness. If they simply said stop trying to get into Europe this whole thing could be alleviated but they are doing the complete opposite and encouraging even more migrants to come here and if they drown in the process well that's on them. The open border clowns who are pushing the door open for them are to blame for anything that happens not the indigenous people of the countries most who are neither responsible or want anything to do with the mess caused by others.

View

Mutant z wrote: »

laoch na mona wrote: »

Mutant z wrote: »

Those who have caused this mess should take full responsibility for it .

Yes and Ireland played a role

Mutant z wrote: »

why should a small country like Ireland destroy its culture .

An bhfuil aon eolas eile agat faoi an rud seo? Is cultúr beomhar é cultúr Éireannach. Níl muid faoi bhaigart ó aon daoine eile

In case your concern for culture is a red herring, migrants don't threaten our culture, In fact government indifference and a legacy of colonialism is the biggest threat to irish culture

Mutant z wrote: »

because of the mess others have caused the majority of the population don't want this yet its being forced on them against their will what hope is there for the future of Irish culture if more and more migrants are allowed to come here which they have zero ties to.

culture will exist as long as society exists, we live in a globalised world which involves people moving for work, most people are companionate and at least have basic human decency and understand that people risking their lives crossing the Mediterranean have a good reason for doing so.

They have a reason to do so because idiots like Merkel are telling them to come Europe even at the risk of drowning how crazy is that woman and the rest of her cronies at all that they are pushing this madness. If they simply said stop trying to get into Europe this whole thing could be alleviated but they are doing the complete opposite and encouraging even more migrants to come here and if they drown in the process well that's on them. The open border clowns who are pushing the door open for them are to blame for anything that happens not the indigenous people of the countries most who are neither responsible or want anything to do with the mess caused by others.

At no stage did Merkel tell people to come to Europe.

Rather she was asked a direct question in an interview as to whether Germany would continue to process applications for refugee status that it was receiving to which she replied that Germany would do so as that was in accordance with the UN law on refugees.

View

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Very bad decision to accept more economic migrants today by our Goverment, worst thing is all political parties here would accept thousands more if they had the chance.

The government didn’t accept any economic migrants.

Rather they accept people who will still have to be processed in accordance with the relevant laws - that processing (of their individual applications) will determine whether they qualify for (permanent) refugees status or for (temporary) protected status or, failing either of those, have their individual applications rejected as being invalid.

laoch na mona

Mutant z wrote: »

The percentage of genuine refugees are a tiny fraction of the number the vast bulk are economic migrants and in any case asylum should be sought in the first safe place of entry the fact that so many have by passed that to try to get here says it all. The fact is Ireland or its people were not responsible for this miss so shouldn't suffer for it let those who are responsible for this mess clean it up leave the indigenous Irish people and their cultural heritage alone they don't deserve this.

unfortunately we are, we benefit from the terms of trade which cause poverty in Africa, we provide a tax heaven for companies avoiding paying tax in African countries, our government supports EU polices that fuel poverty in Africa, we provide tacit support to NATO militarism which causes instability

Varik

Maltese government said they would be investigating the captain and it's possible that he'll be charged.

Danzy

Varik wrote: »

Maltese government said they would be investigating the captain and it's possible that he'll be charged.

Fantastic news, he should be charged as an accessory to the Smuggler's crimes as well.

He benefits and plays a part in the process that sees people, shot, raped, drowned in Libya and further afield.

MayoSalmon

Mutant z wrote: »

Those who have caused this mess should take full responsibility for it why should a small country like Ireland destroy its culture because of the mess others have caused the majority of the population don't want this yet its being forced on them against their will what hope is there for the future of Irish culture if more and more migrants are allowed to come here which they have zero ties to.

What is the evidence that taking in migrants albeit not thousands at the same time somehow destroys a particular countrys culture?

4068ac1elhodqr

MayoSalmon wrote: »

What is the evidence that taking in migrants albeit not thousands at the same time somehow destroys a particular countrys culture?

(Current) conservative estimates are that 20% of Sweden will be Muslim by 2050 (High scenario is 30%).

Medium migration scenarios are France 17%, UK 16%, Malta 10% etc.
All a bit of a sudden change from thousands of years of Christianity by 2050.