Mediterranean migrants- specific questions

View

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

MayoSalmon wrote: »

What is the evidence that taking in migrants albeit not thousands at the same time somehow destroys a particular countrys culture?

(Current) conservative estimates are that 20% of Sweden will be Muslim by 2050 (High scenario is 30%).

Medium migration scenarios are France 17%, UK 16%, Malta 10% etc.
All a bit of a sudden change from thousands of years of Christianity by 2050.

Those “estimates” are nonsense. There are currently more adherents to (the Eastern) Orthodox Churches in Sweden than there are to the differing Islamic beliefs. You might as well “estimate” that Sweden is going to suddenly embrace Orthodox Christianity as Islam since the former is about as likely as the latter.

4068ac1elhodqr

View wrote: »

Those “estimates” are nonsense. There are currently more adherents to (the Eastern) Orthodox Churches in Sweden than there are to the differing Islamic beliefs. You might as well “estimate” that Sweden is going to suddenly embrace Orthodox Christianity as Islam since the former is about as likely as the latter.

Empasis on 'currently'. But we're talking about compiled (medium level) estimates for 2050. Factor in trends, policy, birth rates etc etc

Jamie2k9

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

Empasis on 'currently'. But we're talking about compiled (medium level) estimates for 2050. Factor in trends, policy, birth rates etc etc

Scary.

laoch na mona

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

Empasis on 'currently'. But we're talking about compiled (medium level) estimates for 2050. Factor in trends, policy, birth rates etc etc

that assumes that 2nd 3rdand even 4th generation immigrants don't secularise and stay muslim, there's no reason that has to be the case

creeper1

We have no chance because very few of us have children anymore. I remember looking at a boards thread about whether or not to have children. The main theme was “ why would you want to do something like that?”

Ok kids are a pain at times but the fact is no children- no future.

4068ac1elhodqr

laoch na mona wrote: »

that assumes that 2nd 3rdand even 4th generation immigrants don't secularise and stay muslim, there's no reason that has to be the case

There's no reason that they won't divert from thousands of years of tradition. Why would they? Are you suggesting they're of loose/weak morals and that will be tempted to our western lifestyles?

After all it's a very serious religion. It makes most Christians look like part-time hobbiests, who eat when and what they want. They Dress how they like, drink, party, gamble, procreate (freely), let women drive cars etc etc.

laoch na mona

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

There's no reason that they won't divert from thousands of years of tradition. Why would they? Are you suggesting they're of loose/weak morals and that will be tempted to our western lifestyles?

After all it's a very serious religion. It makes most Christians look like part-time hobbiests, who eat when and what they want. They Dress how they like, drink, party, gamble, procreate (freely), let women drive cars etc etc.

Migrants in every society change after a few generation, look at American and Australia as perfect examples.

It might shock you but muslims like any other religion aren't all super devout

rgossip30

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/islam-to-become-irelands-second-religion-by-2043-29874239.html

This article is at odds with the prediction ?

4068ac1elhodqr

laoch na mona wrote: »

Migrants in every society change after a few generation, look at American and Australia as perfect examples.

It might shock you but muslims like any other religion aren't all super devout

Perfect example such as the ulster-scots that settled in what is known as the US 'bible belt'?

Is St.Pats day and Haloween more celebrated in the US, than their souce country, quite possibly.

Think Muslims may take offence at your suggestion that they've only a few generations left in Europe before descending into atheism, scientology or an alternative choice of sky god.

rgossip30

I doubt there will be any problem with migrants coming here to regulate them is the issue .

laoch na mona

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

Perfect example such as the ulster-scots that settled in what is known as the US 'bible belt'?

Is St.Pats day and Haloween more celebrated in the US, than their souce country, quite possibly.

Think Muslims may take offence at your suggestion that they've only a few generations left in Europe before descending into atheism, scientology or an alternative choice of sky god.

like Irish in the USA aren't part of Irish culture after a few generations they'll be part of Irish, French, German etc, not Turkish, Afghan or whatever culture

4068ac1elhodqr

laoch na mona wrote: »

like Irish in the USA aren't part of Irish culture after a few generations they'll be part of Irish, French, German etc, not Turkish, Afghan or whatever culture

Don't the 'Afro-Americans' in America call themselves 'Afro-Americans' even after a couple of hundred years or so?

FreudianSlippers

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

Don't the 'Afro-Americans' in America call themselves 'Afro-Americans' even after a couple of hundred years or so?

Oh jesus no... no.

African American or black are both acceptable with black being the preferred nomenclature.

4068ac1elhodqr

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Oh jesus no... no.

African American or black are both acceptable with black being the preferred nomenclature.

In terms of a 'cultural identity' perspective.

Point is laoch na mona was claiming earlier the Irish in America loose all their Irish-ness and cultural identity after just a few generations.

FreudianSlippers

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

In terms of a 'cultural identity' perspective.

Point is laoch na mona was claiming earlier the Irish in America loose all their Irish-ness and cultural identity after just a few generations.

No, not in terms of a cultural identity perspective; I'm perfectly clear on the point laoch na mona was making and I agree with it to a large extent. As an Irish person who works part of the year in the USA, I can attest to a general dislike of "Irish-Americanism" in culture as it stands.

What I disagree with is the use of the phrase "Afro-Americans" as it's racist. I also disagree that all black Americans identify culturally with Africa - many do not. It's considered racist to presume that a black person identifies as "African American" (note not "Afro-American") because of the colour of their skin.

4068ac1elhodqr

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

No, not in terms of a cultural identity perspective; I'm perfectly clear on the point laoch na mona was making and I agree with it to a large extent. As an Irish person who works part of the year in the USA, I can attest to a general dislike of "Irish-Americanism" in culture as it stands.

That's your view, but 30m+ identify themselves Irish-american or from Irish hertigage, likely they would be proud if it as part of their cultural fabric, rather than 'detesting' it like you.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

What I disagree with is the use of the phrase "Afro-Americans" as it's racist. I also disagree that all black Americans identify culturally with Africa - many do not. It's considered racist to presume that a black person identifies as "African American" (note not "Afro-American") because of the colour of their skin.

In terms of 'cultural heritage' the term is used extensively across media. Is it racist to ask someone, about 'cultural heritage' if you interested in them and wish to get to know them better when developing a relationship?

laoch na mona

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

In terms of a 'cultural identity' perspective.

Point is laoch na mona was claiming earlier the Irish in America loose all their Irish-ness and cultural identity after just a few generations.

'Irish' Americans are American, they generally have zero cultural attachment to Ireland beyond a bastardised romanticism, they are no more Irish than bulk of white Americans are german or English or any other common ancestry.

A few hundred years on a different continent obviously changes the culture

laoch na mona

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

No, not in terms of a cultural identity perspective; I'm perfectly clear on the point laoch na mona was making and I agree with it to a large extent. As an Irish person who works part of the year in the USA, I can attest to a general dislike of "Irish-Americanism" in culture as it stands.

What I disagree with is the use of the phrase "Afro-Americans" as it's racist. I also disagree that all black Americans identify culturally with Africa - many do not. It's considered racist to presume that a black person identifies as "African American" (note not "Afro-American") because of the colour of their skin.

People of colour seems to be the used phrase now, but that covers all non whites

4068ac1elhodqr

laoch na mona wrote: »

..A few hundred years on a different continent obviously changes the culture

But you're point wasn't about a few hundred years, it was about 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generations of Muslims, and you were proposing there's no reason they will still be Muslim after decades (not centuries).

Simply think they would take offence your presumption.

laoch na mona wrote: »

..assumes that 2nd 3rdand even 4th generation immigrants don't secularise and stay muslim, there's no reason that has to be the case

laoch na mona

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/29/italy-and-libya-accused-after-migrant-deaths-in-dinghy-sinking

More and more official policy is abandoning basic humanitarian requirements

laoch na mona

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

But you're point wasn't about a few hundred years, it was about 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generations of Muslims, and you were proposing there's no reason they will still be Muslim after decades (not centuries).

Simply think they would take offence your presumption.

how religious is your standard European? we've a very secular culture theres no reason that muslims won't secularise just like Christian and hindu migrants do. But if they don't what harm religion is fine as long as its kept out of politics

4068ac1elhodqr

laoch na mona wrote: »

how religious is your standard European? we've a very secular culture theres no reason that muslims won't secularise just like Christian and hindu migrants do. But if they don't what harm religion is fine as long as its kept out of politics

Not very, outside of the Vatican and the many other various closed secular communities across the EU.

Again your're dismissing the very faith of muslims in the EU after just 2,3 or 4 generations in Europe? Can't see them agreeing with you. They might even be offended by your view that's there's 'no reason' for them to keep their closely held faith.

Are the people of Montreal 'Canadians', or 'French-Canadians'? Last time I was there they all spoke French. Even saw a chap in a Beret cycling with a bagette in his basket all whilst smoking and swearing at a passing car driver, very French. You'll even get 'extra points' if you want to migrate to Canada if you speak French as it is part of the fabric of the state, even after hundreds of years.

Hindu's are great folks, their religion is somewhat more abstract with many representations of god-like figures. They're very open to the concept that non-believers of their faith aren't wrong, infidels or dammed in any way by their alternative choices. They have an inspiring outlook of 'live and let live'.

So you're implying in a Sweden of 2050 (with estimates of upto 30% Muslim population). That this Muslim populaiton should be 'kept well out of any political decisions' in their Swedish state that they live in? Well that's nice.

Again slightly offensive for them not to have their opionon heard, or any 'political representation' on daily matters that also form the daily practice of their faith.

Their religion is deeply intertwinned with politcal and legally enforced matters such as: Education policy, healthcare, marrige, divorce, taxation, female clothing, FMGM, LGBT rights, animal slaughter methodologies for aquring food etc.

Either you give them no political say on these (as you desire). Or offer them a some sort of seperate (secular) systems entirely. If it cannot be fully accomodated for in existing structures. Likely some (or a lot) of comprimise will be required to current policy to accomodate their views.

imme

laoch na mona wrote: »

how religious is your standard European? we've a very secular culture theres no reason that muslims won't secularise just like Christian and hindu migrants do. But if they don't what harm religion is fine as long as its kept out of politics

Dutch Catholics and Dutch protestants can be quite religious in my experience, oh and Swedish protestants and French Catholics and German Catholics and German protestants and ...
Still a good bit of faith in Europe I think.

laoch na mona

imme wrote: »

Dutch Catholics and Dutch protestants can be quite religious in my experience, oh and Swedish protestants and French Catholics and German Catholics and German protestants and ...
Still a good bit of faith in Europe I think.

but they're minorities largely, or at least they ones who let religion influence public life are Ireland is one of the only countries where religion isn't a private issue

laoch na mona

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

Not very, outside of the Vatican and the many other various closed secular communities across the EU.

Again your're dismissing the very faith of muslims in the EU after just 2,3 or 4 generations in Europe? Can't see them agreeing with you. They might even be offended by your view that's there's 'no reason' for them to keep their closely held faith.


Hindu's are great folks, their religion is somewhat more abstract with many representations of god-like figures. They're very open to the concept that non-believers of their faith aren't wrong, infidels or dammed in any way by their alternative choices. They have an inspiring outlook of 'live and let live'.

So you're implying in a Sweden of 2050 (with estimates of upto 30% Muslim population). That this Muslim populaiton should be 'kept well out of any political decisions' in their Swedish state that they live in? Well that's nice.
.

mostMuslims I know aren't that religious

even the ones who kill muslims for eating beef?

you seem to think that every Muslim wants to live in a theocracy which is clearly false, just like I as a catholic have a vote so does every other person regardless of faith but groups wanting to establish theocracies (Salafists, the Iona institute) have no place in politics imo

4068ac1elhodqr

laoch na mona wrote: »

mostMuslims I know aren't that religious

even the ones who kill muslims for eating beef?

you seem to think that every Muslim wants to live in a theocracy which is clearly false, just like I as a catholic have a vote so does every other person regardless of faith but groups wanting to establish theocracies (Salafists, the Iona institute) have no place in politics imo

Again very dismissive and perhaps even insulting - for you to assume and generalise that Muslims aren't actually very religous at all.

Not really comparable to the average Christian, who suffice on a once-per week (if even that) visit to a church. Roman Catholicism itself is slowly being destroyed by 'self-inflicted scandals' across nearly every country in the planet. Numbers in Europe (and Ireland in particular) are dropping at an immense rate.

Would you like to see the current excemption (for a couple of religious faiths), to slaughter animals (without stunning them first, just let them bleed-out to death) should be removed from current laws across many EU countries ???

Also you're suggesting a future (sizable) section of Sweden should have no voice whatsoever in influencing politics?

Would you take away their voting rights altogether, so they can't have a say or sway, on any local, nor national policy matters?

laoch na mona

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

Also you're suggesting a future (sizable) section of Sweden should have no voice whatsoever in influencing politics?

Would you take away their voting rights altogether, so they can't have a say or sway, on any local, nor national policy matters?

literally no one is saying that, you're being a troll so I'm not going to keep indulging you

4068ac1elhodqr

laoch na mona wrote: »

literally no one is saying that, you're being a troll so I'm not going to keep indulging you

If you can't argue a point, sure bring out the 'being a troll' card.

laoch na mona wrote: »

l
you seem to think that every Muslim wants to live in a theocracy which is clearly false, just like I as a catholic have a vote so does every other person regardless of faith but groups wanting to establish theocracies (Salafists, the Iona institute) have no place in politics imo

No one is saying that every Muslim wants to live in a theocracy, only you. But it would again be insulting to presume they wouldn't want to 'influence politcal decision making' when-ever, and where-ever they can. Surely it's understandable natural aspiration.

Similarly insulting, for you earlier to assume Muslims will largely abandon their religion in the EU after just 2,3, or 4 generations. A serious religion that impacts strongly on the daily life its followers.

You do not need a 'fully-fledged state theocracy' to create and influence the creation of laws. We already have plenty of cases of relgion(s) doing this in Western democracies.

You seem to suggest religion should have no place in influencing government or politcs. But that probably only exists in a 'mythical, atheist, utiopian place', somewhere in your head.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Post deleted. Link dumping and one-liners are beneath the standard of discussion for this forum.

rgossip30

France looks to be having its problems with migrants.

Illegal migrants in Paris suburb soar to 400,000 as hundreds of migrant children sleep on streets

Riots in Nantes with a youth killed while evading police.

Frustrating how this is allowed to grow despite preventative measures .