Mediterranean migrants- specific questions

weisses

rgossip30 wrote: »

France looks to be having its problems with migrants.

Illegal migrants in Paris suburb soar to 400,000 as hundreds of migrant children sleep on streets

Riots in Nantes with a youth killed while evading police.

Frustrating how this is allowed to grow despite preventative measures .

Interesting piece with a bit of background to the whole situation

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/understanding-urban-riots-in-france/

And what preventative measures were taken during the lat 13 years ?

Not much according to people living there

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/22/nothings-changed-10-years-after-french-riots-banlieues-remain-in-crisis

rgossip30

POLL RESULTS: Here’s the results on whether our readers agree with President Trump’s assertion that Europe is losing its culture due to immigration – TheLiberal.ie – Our News, Your Views

The poll is similar to the referendum result in 2003 . You might get the impression that everyone is pro open borders and hates trump , unfortunately those who make the most noise tend to get heard .

rgossip30

600 migrants cross into Spain's African enclave of Ceuta .They seem to be getting more organised and with Italy refusing to accept then its only going to get worse .

4068ac1elhodqr

rgossip30 wrote: »

600 migrants cross into Spain's African enclave of Ceuta .They seem to be getting more organised and with Italy refusing to accept then its only going to get worse .

After 600 stormed a double fence, it's reported some 'throw excrement' at border gaurds, in order to force their way into Spanish territory.

Some attacked police (with quicklime - a caustic alkaline substance) carried in tubes and bottles. As a result 'more than a dozen' police were injured, with burns to arms and faces.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5994687/400-migrants-storm-border-fence-Spains-North-African-enclave-Ceuta-Morocco.html

Great bunch of lads?

Danzy

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

After 600 stormed a double fence, it's reported some 'throw excrement' at border gaurds, in order to force their way into Spanish territory.

Some attacked police (with quicklime - a caustic alkaline substance) carried in tubes and bottles. As a result 'more than a dozen' police were injured, with burns to arms and faces.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5994687/400-migrants-storm-border-fence-Spains-North-African-enclave-Ceuta-Morocco.html

Great bunch of lads?

When people are storming your border fence, attacking and injuring your Police, it is a hostile act and should be met with reasonable force, up to including ring leaders shot dead and carrying on if that does not stop it.

Reality is going to come crashing down on politics in Europe.

ancapailldorcha

Link dump deleted.

Thomas_IV

Danzy wrote: »

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

After 600 stormed a double fence, it's reported some 'throw excrement' at border gaurds, in order to force their way into Spanish territory.

Some attacked police (with quicklime - a caustic alkaline substance) carried in tubes and bottles. As a result 'more than a dozen' police were injured, with burns to arms and faces.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5994687/400-migrants-storm-border-fence-Spains-North-African-enclave-Ceuta-Morocco.html

Great bunch of lads?

When people are storming your border fence, attacking and injuring your Police, it is a hostile act and should be met with reasonable force, up to including ring leaders shot dead and carrying on if that does not stop it.

Reality is going to come crashing down on politics in Europe.

Quite right, though I consider the use of weapons to stop illegal immigration as to be the last resort when all other measures fail. But in a situation like this one in Ceuta, the attempt to get entry by force equals an assault imo which would had justified the use of force by the border guards. But hey, 'you can't shoot illegal immigrants', even when they threaten your own life and safety. This is really sick.

ArthurDayne

Thomas_IV wrote: »

Danzy wrote: »

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

After 600 stormed a double fence, it's reported some 'throw excrement' at border gaurds, in order to force their way into Spanish territory.

Some attacked police (with quicklime - a caustic alkaline substance) carried in tubes and bottles. As a result 'more than a dozen' police were injured, with burns to arms and faces.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5994687/400-migrants-storm-border-fence-Spains-North-African-enclave-Ceuta-Morocco.html

Great bunch of lads?

When people are storming your border fence, attacking and injuring your Police, it is a hostile act and should be met with reasonable force, up to including ring leaders shot dead and carrying on if that does not stop it.

Reality is going to come crashing down on politics in Europe.

Quite right, though I consider the use of weapons to stop illegal immigration as to be the last resort when all other measures fail. But in a situation like this one in Ceuta, the attempt to get entry by force equals an assault imo which would had justified the use of force by the border guards. But hey, 'you can't shoot illegal immigrants', even when they threaten your own life and safety. This is really sick.

To clarify -- had you been in charge of that operation, and prevailing law permitted it, you would have ordered your men to open fire with live ammunition, potentially killing dozens?
Sure, some of them were throwing quicklime and excrement around (allegedly).  Armed personnel are, or at least should be, trained not to just spray bullets into crowds when they sense danger.  If you are an armed officer, you do not respond to intimidation or even fear of some injury with live fire.  If your life is in danger, or the lives of others, then it is a judgement call which you are trained to make -- but I would presume that we are a civilisation which does not promote or encourage massacre . . .

trashcan

laoch na mona wrote: »

People of colour seems to be the used phrase now, but that covers all non whites

Is white not a colour ?

4068ac1elhodqr

ArthurDayne wrote: »

To clarify -- had you been in charge of that operation, and prevailing law permitted it, you would have ordered your men to open fire with live ammunition, potentially killing dozens?
Sure, some of them were throwing quicklime and excrement around (allegedly). Armed personnel are, or at least should be, trained not to just spray bullets into crowds when they sense danger. If you are an armed officer, you do not respond to intimidation or even fear of some injury with live fire. If your life is in danger, or the lives of others, then it is a judgement call which you are trained to make -- but I would presume that we are a civilisation which does not promote or encourage massacre . . .

True enough, following Israel's border control style isn't the solution either.

But they can be repelled in a non-fatal fashion, whether that's water jets, rubber projectiles or pepper spray it's better than turning a blind eye (possibly an eye blinded by quicklime and excrement, as has been reported from people at that location).

But simply allowing 600 unknown people into any country is not only illegal, but a severe security risk.

mfceiling

Manchester Arena bomber was rescued from Libya by Royal Navy

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/31/manchester-arena-bomber-was-rescued-from-libya-by-royal-navy?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Was he fleeing danger in Libya and was delighted to get "safety" in England? Turns out he more than bit the hand that fed him.

ArthurDayne

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

ArthurDayne wrote: »

To clarify -- had you been in charge of that operation, and prevailing law permitted it, you would have ordered your men to open fire with live ammunition, potentially killing dozens?
Sure, some of them were throwing quicklime and excrement around (allegedly). Armed personnel are, or at least should be, trained not to just spray bullets into crowds when they sense danger. If you are an armed officer, you do not respond to intimidation or even fear of some injury with live fire. If your life is in danger, or the lives of others, then it is a judgement call which you are trained to make -- but I would presume that we are a civilisation which does not promote or encourage massacre . . .

True enough, following Israel's border control style isn't the solution either.

But they can be repelled in a non-fatal fashion, whether that's water jets, rubber projectiles or pepper spray it's better than turning a blind eye (possibly an eye blinded by quicklime and excrement, as has been reported from people at that location).

But simply allowing 600 unknown people into any country is not only illegal, but a severe security risk.

Agreed. Nothing wrong with using reasonable force but my reading of what happened at Ceuta is that these people broke this fence via either poor perimeter obstacles or general incompetence -- rather than it being a matter of policy. Have these people been "allowed" into Spain anyway...or is it simply a case that they are being held somewhere pending decison?

Interestingly, I also note the irony that tiny Ceuta remains part of Spain as a result of colonial history. Perhaps if Spain considered ceding the tiny area to Morocco they would rid themselves of this headache.

Ironic that a place synonymous with Spain's imperial conquests now becomes synonymous with so-called "invasion" by migrants. Ironic.....or perhaps one of the inevitable effects of historic land greed. . . . .

Thomas_IV

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Thomas_IV wrote: »

Danzy wrote: »

Penny Agreeable Sauerkraut wrote: »

After 600 stormed a double fence, it's reported some 'throw excrement' at border gaurds, in order to force their way into Spanish territory.

Some attacked police (with quicklime - a caustic alkaline substance) carried in tubes and bottles. As a result 'more than a dozen' police were injured, with burns to arms and faces.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5994687/400-migrants-storm-border-fence-Spains-North-African-enclave-Ceuta-Morocco.html

Great bunch of lads?

When people are storming your border fence, attacking and injuring your Police, it is a hostile act and should be met with reasonable force, up to including ring leaders shot dead and carrying on if that does not stop it.

Reality is going to come crashing down on politics in Europe.

Quite right, though I consider the use of weapons to stop illegal immigration as to be the last resort when all other measures fail. But in a situation like this one in Ceuta, the attempt to get entry by force equals an assault imo which would had justified the use of force by the border guards. But hey, 'you can't shoot illegal immigrants', even when they threaten your own life and safety. This is really sick.

To clarify -- had you been in charge of that operation, and prevailing law permitted it, you would have ordered your men to open fire with live ammunition, potentially killing dozens?
Sure, some of them were throwing quicklime and excrement around (allegedly).  Armed personnel are, or at least should be, trained not to just spray bullets into crowds when they sense danger.  If you are an armed officer, you do not respond to intimidation or even fear of some injury with live fire.  If your life is in danger, or the lives of others, then it is a judgement call which you are trained to make -- but I would presume that we are a civilisation which does not promote or encourage massacre . . .

So, when border guards suffer from burn injuries inflicted on them by immigrants - I really have to use the word - 'attacking' the border in order to trespass it by force you mean to watch them burn and do nothing? That is how I interprete your reply and all the excuses you have for the invading migrants on foreign territory to which they have no right to enter.

But how quick you are to come up with massacres and a civilised society who doesn't do that. Just wait for it when more and more are following the pattern they've tried to set up and when word spreads to their fellow country men and women that there is little violent response in order to defend the territory, Europe will have to decide to either push them back by force, even military one, or just let them all in. That this will lead to unrest and even more militancy among the native people (yes, 'native' people because it is them who own the country and the state and the others are either legal migrants with proper residence permission or illegale ones who force their way into the country and therefore shouldn't have any right because by the use of force, not even asylum).

I don't want to see Europe taken by force by some illegal migrants who think that they can prevail with their use of violence the way they see and experience little to no resistance and nothing that really deters them from using violence because people like yourself and all the other self-declared humanists with an absolutely non-violent reproach attitude that bears a lack of resistance where resistance should be the proper answer to violence coming from the outside to settle in the inside.

I don't want to see Europe being taken over by the far-right and other Neo-Nazis and Fascists because they can always use the apparent weakness of the liberal minded to respond to violence inflicted on border staff and the police by violent migrants for their propaganda and get more native people to their side cos they are fed up with all this and will 'claim' their country back by whatever means it takes.  

I am sick of both of them, the violent as well as already the non-violent migrants who are allowed to come into Europe in masses and watch the native who contributed to their country and society by paying for it for decades suffer because the current govts are more eager to prefer to care about the well being of the newcomers than they care about their own people. That is what brings more water onto the mills of the far-rights across the whole of Europe and this is also the core for this polarised political and social environment we live in for years.

Everything seems to be out of balance and it all is getting worse, in some countries slowly, in others more rapidly and I can promise you that this development will end in havoc the more of them are allowed to come into Europe and the more injustice is not just felt but also experienced by the natives in all the EU member states. This development provides the path to either more authoritarian regimes or even fascist ones. Just look around the EU member states and realise in which countries the far-rights already have either seats in parliaments, being even part of the government or just rule the country already by their strong and growing influence on right-wing parties without being part of the government themselves. Hungary, Poland, Italy, France just narrowly escaped the FN winning the presidential election but in the French Parliament, the FN has enough MPs. Look at Sweden and Norway, Denmark who have tightened their asylum policy in order to deter migrants coming to their countries because the mood has changed among their citizens. Belgium which has a serious and Long Standing Problem with non-integrated Long Standing immigrants, the Netherlands quite the same. In Austria the coalition between the conservative ÖVP and the far-right FPÖ, in Germany the rise of the AfD which is also a far-right Party who gained a huge amount of seats in the past GE and is now to enter the last state parliaments in Germany in the state elections in Hesse and Bavaria in autumn this year. The Czech Republic who has a Social Democratic govt but refuses to take in immigrants on the basis of the by Germany forced quota of supplying refugees and asylum seekers from Germany, Italy or other countries who took the many of them in in the years 2015 and 2016.

People of your ilk are very short sighted on the whole problem and refuse to acknowledge what is going on and Analyse the developments which are in process and progress since the peak of the migration crisis in 2015. Instead you and the others are only argumenting with humanity and that it is our duty to take as many in as are capable to make it into Europe. I say NO, enough is enough and it is already more than enough and if you don't like to see the whole system collaps with the far-right taking over you would better have a closer look at what is going and why this is going on.

If you think that some more people have an appetite for authoritarian regimes of a far-right or right-wing basis you're mistaken. Apart from the minority of nutters who always fall for that, the majority doesn't want that, but they see themselves being left without any other choice but to vote for those who have the spirit and the means to put an end to this incessive influx of immigrants. That is how it looks like and that is what makes more people vote for those they usually wouldn't vote for. The failure of the liberal society because they lack to realise that liberalism has to have bounds if it wants to stay sane is the advantage of the radicals who always seek to get rid of the liberal system.  

The developments towards a more support for the far-right in Europe has grown, and I think that to stop that and reverse the development the liberal and democratic society will have to take on measures they don't like in order to have this society survive, otherwise the discontent will grow and so the support for the radicals.

You can have your laughs at it, twist it the way you please, even ridicule it, all what I have said. It doesn't matter to me because in doing so, you're just proving yourself that you neither understand the current situation nor do you really get the big picture of the present situation in Europe. This situation is just the beginning, it is not the end because at the end of it will be either an EU ruled by right-wing parties or it will transform into something which some people call 'Fortress Europe'.

I don't think in years, I think in decades and I take environmental developments into account in my observations, considerations and conclusions. I refuse to look away from the problems of our times, but it sickens me to watch and read people who refuse to look at the reality and always come up with all the same mantras. They don't help to solve the problems, they only help to make them worse, bringing humanity to a level when it will become a luxury because of the decline that comes with overpopulation by people who can't fit in and those who won't fit in.

Europe's capacity to handle the migration crisis has its limits, just the do-gooders are ideologically too blind to see that and this will be the cause for their own downfall when there is nothing left for themselves. But as long as it doesn't bites themselves, everything is OK.

ArthurDayne

Thomas . . .
Once more – as is always the case on these threads – I am subjected to a barrage of words being stuffed into my mouth regarding positions I never took.  Who is advocating doing nothing? Why does my disagreeing with you mean I ‘refuse to acknowledge what is going on’?  What are people of ‘my ilk’?  When did I say Europe has a duty to take in as many as are capable of making it there?


In many ways, I can see why people of ‘your ilk’ (to use your own terminology) are so riven with paranoia about the supposed decline of Europe into a multicultural apocalypse – it’s because you are forever arguing with figments of your imagination.  You have created this caricature of cuddly snowflake liberals who believe in open borders for all, no toughness, giving people packed lunches at the border instead of security checks yadda yadda yadda.  It’s always a story of how Europe has declined and everything has gone to utter s**t but when it comes to solutions – we get massacring civilians at border frontiers.  That’s great, any more suggestions?  Perhaps a magical force field around Europe – through which only the pure of heart can pass?  

I have simply said that it is wrong to advocate the massacre of unarmed men and boys for trying to climb a fence – I make no apologies for that.  There were soldiers and police injured in the days leading up to Bloody Sunday in Derry and on the day itself – I do not imagine that you would be so quick to exult the merits of massacre in that case, would you?  Quicklime is nasty stuff, but to equate some people in a crowd chucking around cans of it with meriting instant death and indiscriminate gunfire – I can have no truck with that.


So – as I am an insufferable and incorrigible do-gooder – please educate me on more of your Hard Man Politics.  Aside from gunning down 20 year old Africans climbing a fence into Ceuta (a remnant of course of Spanish conquests in Africa but let’s not talk about that because it’s inconvenient to the point you’re making) – what other inspired ideas do you have?  What would you do if you were in charge?

Jamie2k9

Our lucky day, we are taking in 140 stranded off Italy, will be voting for SF (always a FG person) in the European Elections in a bid to unseat FG.

PS - I know SF are just as bad welcoming these people as well...

s7ryf3925pivug

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Our lucky day, we are taking in 140 stranded off Italy, will be voting for SF (always a FG person) in the European Elections in a bid to unseat FG.

PS - I know SF are just as bad welcoming these people as well...

No, taking 20 of 140.

Jamie2k9

Salma Scruffy Earring wrote: »

No, taking 20 of 140.

20 today, another 20 next week and maybe another 20 next month. It will never end.

4068ac1elhodqr

Salma Scruffy Earring wrote: »

No, taking 20 of 140.

Yes only 20 or so with scabies or tuberculosis, still they're probably all doctors and engineers.

To be fair SF aren't really concerned with this sort of thing (illegal migration), they'll back whatever popular liberal viewpoint is the flavour of the day - if it means a (missguided) few extra votes.

s7ryf3925pivug

20 cases of scabies would cost €270 to medicate.

I don't think there is a problem with accepting migrants per se. The problem is the treatment of long term non-contributors here in general is to placate them, not try to make them into contributors. Cheap labour is a useful resource and there are plenty of things that it could be put to use for by the state. (I don't mean inflating private sector job numbers via jobsbridge schemes.)

Danzy

Salma Scruffy Earring wrote: »

20 cases of scabies would cost €270 to medicate.

I don't think there is a problem with accepting migrants per se. The problem is the treatment of long term non-contributors here in general is to placate them, not try to make them into contributors. Cheap labour is a useful resource and there are plenty of things that it could be put to use for by the state. (I don't mean inflating private sector job numbers via jobsbridge schemes.)

The current approach to migration and refugees is at the far end of free market fanaticism in practice.

Amazingly the Left, of all hues, are the most vocal in supporting it, even though it finishes off the idea of the State having even a basic role in society, nevermind a Welfare State.

If Thatcher had couched her politics in terms of Solidarity and Internationalism she would be praised from on high by the modern Left.

4068ac1elhodqr

Salma Scruffy Earring wrote: »

20 cases of scabies would cost €270 to medicate.

....Cheap labour is a useful resource and there are plenty of things that it could be put to use for by the state.

It might only cost 1/10th in foreign aid, applied at source (Libya). Not to mention a lifetime of likely welfare payments for the 20, and their extended families to look forward to now.

Cheap labour is only useful if it can meet a specific (non seasonal/temporary) demand. To even stack shelves you need a good secondary education including pass grades at maths and english. 99% of jobs these days also require excellent communication skills.

In this coming autonomous 'gig economy' featuring the mass replacement of the unskilled...

...People of unknown undocumented origin, with unknown skills, unknown language ability, unknown disposition, unknown health, and unknown criminal background will find themselves more challenged than other natives from the getgo.

creeper1

20 is nothing. I know the 20 have, in effect, been rewarded for risk taking and, in principal, what is going on is very undesirable.  

You may think that the 20 are unwelcome and how dare Italy. However if you are on the side of controlled immigration you have to admire Matteo Salvini. France, Germany etc are now being made to take responsibility very publicly for migrants. Every time the (many) NGOs traffic people to Italy he is refusing permission and tying up the rescue ships at sea interrupting the speed that the do their operations.

laoch na mona

creeper1 wrote: »

20 is nothing. I know the 20 have, in effect, been rewarded for risk taking and, in principal, what is going on is very undesirable.  

You may think that the 20 are unwelcome and how dare Italy. However if you are on the side of controlled immigration you have to admire Matteo Salvini. France, Germany etc are now being made to take responsibility very publicly for migrants. Every time the (many) NGOs traffic people to Italy he is refusing permission and tying up the rescue ships at sea interrupting the speed that the do their operations.

NGOs don't traffic people though

Danzy

laoch na mona wrote: »

NGOs don't traffic people though

Participate in the smuggling operation in a voluntary and non-judgemental way?

PlaneSpeeking

laoch na mona wrote: »

NGOs don't traffic people though

Yes they do - the traffickers start them on their journey and the NGOs and our Navy kindly get them the rest of the way.

Pathetic it is.

4068ac1elhodqr

laoch na mona wrote: »

NGOs don't traffic people though

The Italian state might well disagree with that.

rgossip30

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/07/31/inenglish/1533022740_738496.html

I thought Spain was using a regulation made in 1992 that allows them to return migrants Ceuta .

http://theliberal.ie/shocking-police-attacked-with-acid-as-migrants-continue-to-flow-into-spain/

This article says they continue flow into Spain , overwhelm by numbers likely objective .

Danzy

rgossip30 wrote: »

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/07/31/inenglish/1533022740_738496.html

I thought Spain was using a regulation made in 1992 that allows them to return migrants Ceuta .

http://theliberal.ie/shocking-police-attacked-with-acid-as-migrants-continue-to-flow-into-spain/

This article says they continue flow into Spain , overwhelm by numbers likely objective .

When they are being attacked like that at the border it has gone from a Police issue to a Military one.

Another Left wing party in Europe consigning itself and its movement to the dustbin of history because they adopted a position on migration that is extreme free market in practice.

ArthurDayne

Danzy wrote: »

When they are being attacked like that at the border it has gone from a Police issue to a Military one.

What do you mean by this? What would you have the military do exactly?

Danzy wrote: »

Another Left wing party in Europe consigning itself and its movement to the dustbin of history because they adopted a position on migration that is extreme free market in practice.

Again, I'm not sure I follow. What is the position they are adopting? If it was a case that they simply wanted all the illegal migrants to just rush in ---- then why don't they just let them? If it's a 'position' they have adopted, then why bother with fences or security?

ancapailldorcha

Image dump deleted. Serious discussion only please.