Billy Walsh quits ** SEE MOD WARNING #643 BEFORE POSTING

Joe_ Public

September 14 - the meeting in Sandyford where the IABA claims a contract agreement is reached.

September 17 - IABA sends a draft contract to Billy Walsh's legal advisers. Deeming it unacceptable, they write back to IABA seeking over 60 amendments.

October 8 - After two requests for an answer, IABA finally responds, while Billy is in Doha with the boxers, and the answer is negative on all points.

That delay between Sept 17 and Oct 8 seems extraordinary. What were they doing in the meantime and then finally dealing with it while the World Championships were ongoing? Why the prevarication? Why no sense of urgency? The IABA statement gives the impression that they believed they had dealt with all of Walsh's concerns, and hence their shock at his resignation, but that seems a highly questionable version of what actually happened.

Tiredout

Joe_ Public wrote: »

September 14 - the meeting in Sandyford where the IABA claims a contract agreement is reached.

September 17 - IABA sends a draft contract to Billy Walsh's legal advisers. Deeming it unacceptable, they write back to IABA seeking over 60 amendments.

October 8 - After two requests for an answer, IABA finally responds, while Billy is in Doha with the boxers, and the answer is negative on all points.

That delay between Sept 17 and Oct 8 seems extraordinary. What were they doing in the meantime and then finally dealing with it while the World Championships were ongoing? Why the prevarication? Why no sense of urgency? The IABA statement gives the impression that they believed they had dealt with all of Walsh's concerns, and hence their shock at his resignation, but that seems a highly questionable version of what actually happened.

Excellent article by Vincent hogan in the independent on the discussions and timeframes. As you say IABA version highly questionable

Henno30

The independent go into a feeding frenzy at the sniff of a fall-out in organisations the FAI, GAA, or IABA. Anything except rugby, where abject failure at yet another 'world cup' is lauded as utterly heroic. Maybe in time enough of our boxing people will come from private schooled families and all that will change.

Tiredout

Henno30 wrote: »

The independent go into a feeding frenzy at the sniff of a fall-out in organisations the FAI, GAA, or IABA. Anything except rugby, where abject failure at yet another 'world cup' is lauded as utterly heroic. Maybe in time enough of our boxing people will come from private schooled families and all that will change.

Keeping this trend on topic The independent should be in a frenzy about this. Level of incompetence from IABA is staggering.

walshb

Tiredout wrote: »

Excellent article by Vincent hogan in the independent on the discussions and timeframes. As you say IABA version highly questionable

I read that. By far the most detailed if any article.

Joe_ Public

walshb wrote: »

I read that. By far the most detailed if any article.

We can assume that it's a fair summation of the Billy Walsh side of things. They obviously have been given copies of the drafted contracts, pity they didn't publish the list of amendments.

Interesting to learn he had conducted a review of the HP Unit 2 years ago and concluded they needed to up their game - a good illustration of the professionalism he brought I believe. That's what marks Walsh out from the rest - he isn't just high performance, he actually lives it and the IABA amateurs wouldn't even give him the title, insisting they were the real leaders of the program. I don't think they've quite grasped what they've lost here and probably never will.

Strazdas

Tiredout wrote: »

Excellent article by Vincent hogan in the independent on the discussions and timeframes. As you say IABA version highly questionable

Here it is :

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/boxing/the-real-story-behind-why-billy-walsh-said-goodbye-to-irish-boxing-34137122.html

The gist of it seems to be that Carruth and Christle and the rest of the IABA board wanted Walsh out from the outset (or at least certainly were far from enthused about the prospect of keeping him ie. if he was to stay on, it would be on their terms, definitely not on his and making it very clear that they were running the show and he was merely an employee of theirs).

Strazdas

Joe_ Public wrote: »

We can assume that it's a fair summation of the Billy Walsh side of things. They obviously have been given copies of the drafted contracts, pity they didn't publish the list of amendments.

Interesting to learn he had conducted a review of the HP Unit 2 years ago and concluded they needed to up their game - a good illustration of the professionalism he brought I believe. That's what marks Walsh out from the rest - he isn't just high performance, he actually lives it and the IABA amateurs wouldn't even give him the title, insisting they were the real leaders of the program. I don't think they've quite grasped what they've lost here and probably never will.

The 'Billy Walsh side of things' seems far more credible and coherent than anything we heard from Carruth and Christle yesterday. That sounded like an exercise in evasion and an effort to throw up a smokescreen around the whole affair.

Strazdas

New statement from Billy Walsh :

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/boxing/breaking-the-iaba-clearly-didnt-want-me-and-went-out-of-their-way-to-undermine-me-billy-walsh-34137974.html

He makes the allegation that (in his opinion) everything the IABA did between August and October was done with the intention of forcing him out of Irish boxing for good and to move to the USA ie. that they actively wanted him to resign his post and be rid of him forever.

mikerobertson

My dad works in the iaba. I don't want to get too detailed but Walsh was certainly getting too big for his boots over the last 12 months, relations had been strained for longer, since the last Olympics. I personally feel there are plenty who can keep up what he did with ease. The talent is there and he didn't create the talent.

Strazdas

mikerobertson wrote: »

My dad works in the iaba. I don't want to get too detailed but Walsh was certainly getting too big for his boots over the last 12 months, relations had been strained for longer, since the last Olympics. I personally feel there are plenty who can keep up what he did with ease. The talent is there and he didn't create the talent.

So you would concede that what Walsh is saying is generally correct, that they wanted him out and someone new to replace him? That does seem to be the case, no matter which side of the fence anyone is on regarding his role.

dixiefly

mikerobertson wrote: »

My dad works in the iaba. I don't want to get too detailed but Walsh was certainly getting too big for his boots over the last 12 months, relations had been strained for longer, since the last Olympics. I personally feel there are plenty who can keep up what he did with ease. The talent is there and he didn't create the talent.

So we will have to wait and see. Progress a upcoming competitions will be interesting.

I note that your dad didnt dispute the facts as stated by Walsh.

marienbad

mikerobertson wrote: »

My dad works in the iaba. I don't want to get too detailed but Walsh was certainly getting too big for his boots over the last 12 months, relations had been strained for longer, since the last Olympics. I personally feel there are plenty who can keep up what he did with ease. The talent is there and he didn't create the talent.

The reality is talent alone does not win medals .

Strazdas

dixiefly wrote: »

So we will have to wait and see. Progress a upcoming competitions will be interesting.

I note that your dad didnt dispute the facts as stated by Walsh.

Also getting too big for his boots might be IABA speak for Walsh seeking more power and autonomy. But he has actually said in his statement today that is what he was looking for.

efb

http://www.irish-boxing.com/billy-walsh-responds-incorrect-iaba-statement/

Billy Walsh responds to IABA statement

efb

mikerobertson wrote: »

My dad works in the iaba. I don't want to get too detailed but Walsh was certainly getting too big for his boots over the last 12 months, relations had been strained for longer, since the last Olympics. I personally feel there are plenty who can keep up what he did with ease. The talent is there and he didn't create the talent.

Beware the green eyed monster eh...

super_furry

At this stage if the IABA put out a statement saying the sky was blue, I wouldn't believe them.

flutered

mikerobertson wrote: »

My dad works in the iaba. I don't want to get too detailed but Walsh was certainly getting too big for his boots over the last 12 months, relations had been strained for longer, since the last Olympics. I personally feel there are plenty who can keep up what he did with ease. The talent is there and he didn't create the talent.

please explain the too big for his boots bit, thanks f

Joe_ Public

flutered wrote: »

please explain the too big for his boots bit, thanks f

I presume it means Billy always been in the newspapers, like God forbid Irish amateur boxing getting coverage in the media. The less of that the better. Wasn't like that back in our day, you know!

Strazdas

flutered wrote: »

please explain the too big for his boots bit, thanks f

Walsh has said himself he wanted more powers and independence to make decisions. In the minds of Carruth, Christle & Co, that may well equal him 'getting too big for his boots'.

seadnamac

The idea that somebody doing a job that he wasn't getting paid appropriately for or even afforded the actual job title itself could possibly get "too big for his boots" tells me all I need to know about the attitude of the IABA. They begrudge the Unit, and Walsh in particular, for the fact that most of our success is attributed to them. I wouldn't be surprised if they considered the concept of High Performance to be a load of nonsense, kind of like what you see in other sports in some people's opinions of the use of things like statistics/analytics and sports science. If that is the case, I would be worried about what kind of system they will put in place now that Walsh (and before him, Keegan) is gone.

supermans ghost

mikerobertson wrote: »

My dad works in the iaba. I don't want to get too detailed but Walsh was certainly getting too big for his boots over the last 12 months, relations had been strained for longer, since the last Olympics. I personally feel there are plenty who can keep up what he did with ease. The talent is there and he didn't create the talent.

Is your father Fergal Carruth by any chance?

First he sends out his brother to do his bidding on national radio, so I wouldn't be surprised if he sent out one of his children to do likewise on an internet forum.
He and Joe Christle are the definition of gombeens and worms of the lowest order. (actually that's insulting to all worms)

My two cents worth is that Joe and Fergal were extremely jealous of the success that Billy had with the high performance unit and the final straw was when Billy was going to receive the merited status and renumeration package to go with this success, so Fergal couldn't have one of his minions making more money than him, so they formed a little cabal to force his eventual resignation. Fergal and Joe's ego's are more important than the success of Irish boxing on an international stage after all.

haveringchick

supermans ghost wrote: »

Is your father Fergal Carruth by any chance?

First he sends out his brother to do his bidding on national radio, so I wouldn't be surprised if he sent out one of his children to do likewise on an internet forum.
He and Joe Christle are the definition of gombeens and worms of the lowest order. (actually that's insulting to all worms)

My two cents worth is that Joe and Fergal were extremely jealous of the success that Billy had with the high performance unit and the final straw was when Billy was going to receive the merited status and renumeration package to go with this success, so Fergal couldn't have one of his minions making more money than him, so they formed a little cabal to force his eventual resignation. Fergal and Joe's ego's are more important than the success of Irish boxing on an international stage after all.

This is exactly what happened. Carruth in particular thought Billy Walshe was getting "above himself " ( too big for his boots) and being the worst type of Irish upstart (Carruth) he decided to show Walshe who is top dog around here and pushed him out.
Cos it's not about what's best for boxing you know, it's about Fearghal Carruth being top dog.

walshb

supermans ghost wrote: »

Is your father Fergal Carruth by any chance?

First he sends out his brother to do his bidding on national radio, so I wouldn't be surprised if he sent out one of his children to do likewise on an internet forum.
He and Joe Christle are the definition of gombeens and worms of the lowest order. (actually that's insulting to all worms)

My two cents worth is that Joe and Fergal were extremely jealous of the success that Billy had with the high performance unit and the final straw was when Billy was going to receive the merited status and renumeration package to go with this success, so Fergal couldn't have one of his minions making more money than him, so they formed a little cabal to force his eventual resignation. Fergal and Joe's ego's are more important than the success of Irish boxing on an international stage after all.

Do you have some sort of personal beef with some members of the IABA? I have reported this post. Plenty of civil and respectable debating going on here. Your contribution needs to reflect that.

Tiredout

I think it's very clear now that tax payer money in the form of funding should be pulled from the IABA until the board resigns.

supermans ghost

walshb wrote: »

Do you have some sort of personal beef with some members of the IABA? I have reported this post. Plenty of civil and respectable debating going on here. Your contribution needs to reflect that.

Bite me, I'm shakin in my boots.

Didn't i already school you once, by actually hanging up on you. (did you not get that)

fwiw -I have no connection to either Billy Walsh or the IABA, but i can tell when someone is getting a raw deal.

Ctrl Alt Delete

mikerobertson wrote: »

. I personally feel there are plenty who can keep up what he did with ease. The talent is there and he didn't create the talent.

Yep its totally easy to do what he done thats why a country and NGB of USA Boxing with a 56 state wide committee sought out a man from another country. Your da sounds exactly the kind of fool who brings personal beefs into professional ones.

Strazdas wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/boxing/breaking-the-iaba-clearly-didnt-want-me-and-went-out-of-their-way-to-undermine-me-billy-walsh-34137974.html

He makes the allegation that (in his opinion) everything the IABA did between August and October was done with the intention of forcing him out of Irish boxing for good and to move to the USA ie. that they actively wanted him to resign his post and be rid of him forever.

The only one don't seem to be of this opinion is the IABA themselves from my reading of what all the stakeholders have been saying.

Tiredout wrote: »

I think it's very clear now that tax payer money in the form of funding should be pulled from the IABA until the board resigns.

While publicly no funding will be "pulled" you can be rest assured that the IABA will feel this in their funding pockets and rightly so.

Tiriel

Last warning on thread before infractions will be applied to any poster who posts abusive content about anyone, be it the IABA, individuals in any organization or another poster. There are new posters in here who are obviously unaware of the rules of boards .ie and I would recommend you familiarise yourselves before posting in your current style again. Or don't post, your choice.

Strazdas

Tiredout wrote: »

I think it's very clear now that tax payer money in the form of funding should be pulled from the IABA until the board resigns.

Many people have actually suggested this in the comments sections under articles and on social media. There may well be a strong case for it. What Vincent Hogan outlined in the Indo today is bordering on a scandal.

walshb

Strazdas wrote: »

Walsh has said himself he wanted more powers and independence to make decisions. In the minds of Carruth, Christle & Co, that may well equal him 'getting too big for his boots'.

And to have that view is not at all odd. IF Billy was asking for more authority and power and say, that doesn't mean he should have gotten it. Whether or not he was not being given adequate power and respect is open to interpretation, depending on who you believe.

Strazdas

walshb wrote: »

And to have that view is not at all odd. IF Billy was asking for more authority and power and say, that doesn't mean he should have gotten it. Whether or not he was not being given adequate power and respect is open to interpretation, depending on who you believe.

We're definitely into a "he says, she says" scenario, but from what I can see, all of the sympathy is with Walsh on this one and none with his employers.

This week has been nothing short of a public relations disaster for the IABA. It would be like some faceless bureaucrats in the IRFU trying to convince us Joe Schmidt was getting ideas above his station and becoming power mad, and that perhaps it would be for the best if he left Irish rugby for good.

Joe_ Public

walshb wrote: »

And to have that view is not at all odd. IF Billy was asking for more authority and power and say, that doesn't mean he should have gotten it. Whether or not he was not being given adequate power and respect is open to interpretation, depending on who you believe.

Well the IABA decided he shouldn't have gotten it. And now he's gone. As for respect, it's hard to see how an employee doing a job he isn't being recognised or paid commensurately for is indicative of respect. Seems to me the IABA and their families, and I'm guessing you, believe he was being shown enough respect, everybody else thinks he wasn't

walshb

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Well the IABA decided he shouldn't have gotten it. And now he's gone. As for respect, it's hard to see how an employee doing a job he isn't being recognised or paid commensurately for is indicative of respect. Seems to me the IABA and their families, and I'm guessing you, believe he was being shown enough respect, everybody else thinks he wasn't

Well, I have posted a few times in Billy's defence. Hand on heart I'd be more inclined to believe that he was given a rough ride. I have said this afew times. In matters like this, with all the he said-she said it is very difficult to apportion blame accurately. IMO some here are just far too OTT against one side.

efb

Well US boxing clearly rate him

Ctrl Alt Delete

walshb wrote: »

Well, I have posted a few times in Billy's defence. Hand on heart I'd be more inclined to believe that he was given a rough ride. I have said this afew times. In matters like this, with all the he said-she said it is very difficult to apportion blame accurately. IMO some here are just far too OTT against one side.

Its nothing to do with being OTT against one side. There has yet to be one single redeeming argument, point or action from the IABA in this whole sorry affair that indicates they are not to blame.

Despite all the he said / she said it has all been directed negatively against the IABA and the trend is the trend afterall.

Strazdas

walshb wrote: »

Well, I have posted a few times in Billy's defence. Hand on heart I'd be more inclined to believe that he was given a rough ride. I have said this afew times. In matters like this, with all the he said-she said it is very difficult to apportion blame accurately. IMO some here are just far too OTT against one side.

In truth, we should never have heard a single word about this. If the IABA were a professional and well run organisation, we would be hearing nothing about contract negotiations or tensions between the head coach and the board, certainly not in a scenario where that head coach was delivering phenomenal sporting results.

The fact that we've been hearing all about it in the media for ages tells us that something was horribly wrong behind the scenes and that Walsh was coming up against gross incompetence and amateurism.

Joe_ Public

Whatever about all the he said, she said business, the fact is all sides in this farce have had their go at explaining their version of events and I can't imagine anyone disagreeing that the weakest, the one full of holes and selective cherry picking of events, was the IABA's. If people hadn't made their minds up before, I wouldn't blame them for doing so on the basis of that.

Strazdas

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Whatever about all the he said, she said business, the fact is all sides in this farce have had their go at explaining their version of events and I can't imagine anyone disagreeing that the weakest, the one full of holes and selective cherry picking of events, was the IABA's. If people hadn't made their minds up before, I wouldn't blame them for doing so on the basis of that.

The reaction to all this has been quite overwhelming, to the point where I don't think I've seen anyone saying they believe the IABA's version over Billy's.

The meeting in front of the Oireachtas committee next week is virtually pointless, as everyone knows that whatever the IABA have to say on the matter will be complete BS.

Joe_ Public

Strazdas wrote: »

The reaction to all this has been quite overwhelming, to the point where I don't think I've seen anyone saying they believe the IABA's version over Billy's.

The meeting in front of the Oireachtas committee next week is virtually pointless, as everyone knows that whatever the IABA have to say on the matter will be complete BS.

Has they actually intimated they'll definitely turn up? Dont think they can be forced to appear, though would not seem the smartest move to decline the invitation. But as you say, it's fairly pointless now, only a chance for a few politicians to do some grandstanding and hope it gets on the camera.

Ctrl Alt Delete

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Has they actually intimated they'll definitely turn up? Dont think they can be forced to appear, though would not seem the smartest move to decline the invitation. But as you say, it's fairly pointless now, only a chance for a few politicians to do some grandstanding and hope it gets on the camera.

As far as I know only ISC have been called up. There was discussion and mention about having IABA there but don't think anything came of it altough I doubt they would enter an appearance anyways

walshb

Page 72 and 73 of the Iridh Daily Mail details a Q&A with Fergal Carruth. Maybe it has bern addressed here already. It's worth a look.

Donald Trump

I am sorry to see Billy Walsh leave.

The Sports Council should not be stepping in and trying to force any organization to hire or not hire their staff. They can of course decide to withhold their funding but must have consistent approach to all sporting organizations

I do not think that one man should have absolute power over selection of people to represent Ireland. I do not know whether that was a sticking point but I have read stories online and heard interviews where it was at least implied.

The Boxing team performance is down to individual performances. It is not like rugby or soccer where you might not pick the "individually best" 11 as in that case you are trying to build a team that is greater than the sum of it's parts. If you are Jack Charlton and you decide to leave Liam Brady on your bench then you can justify that somehow based on overall team performance. If someone is the best boxer at their weight, proven by winning the seniors, and/or box-offs, they should get their place on the team. I do not see a problem in principle with having to have a selection ratified. This is a reasonable control to have in place. I would like to know for definite how,for example, Athletics Ireland chose their athletes. I think that that is by a selection committee. And I don't hear the Sports Council calling for them to appoint one director who should have sole power to select all athletes for all events.

The IABA is a grassroots organization and I would hate to see a complete disconnect between the national selections and the local and provincial levels. People have mentioned that somehow the Sports Council should take the High Performance Section away from the IABA. That should never be done. It should be left in the hands of the people who nurture the boxers and the structure, not handed over to some pencil pushing carpetbaggers who see more potential Olympic medals on the horizon. That comment is directed at the Sports Council, not Billy Walsh of course. Billy has given his life to the sport from the ground up.

I do not have any connection to the IABA. I was an ordinary member of a local club but that was almost a decade ago. I do not have any connections to any of the parties involved. I have met Joe Christle maybe twice, but again, not within the last decade or so. I found him to be a extremely intelligent person and an absolute gentleman. He would not know or remember me though. I never met Fergal Carruth. I never met Billy Walsh. I met Gary Keegan once or twice. His name has been mentioned and I thought that was an extremely big loss to the organization when he left, more so than Billy Walsh now. I think it is disgraceful to read people commenting online, who probably never heard of any of these people, acting like know-it-alls and denigrating individuals who they probably had not known existed until a few weeks ago. Of course, there will be some people who know them, but in the main most people have probably just lapped up what they read in the tabloids over the last couple of weeks and are now experts in all things boxing.

I read in Vincent Hogans article that Billy was offered something like 115k to be a contractor and 95k to remain a staff member. The Sports Council might have been paying his wages currently, but unless they committed to providing that support indefinitely,I would understand any potential reticence to the IABA locking themselves into a potentially expensive contract that they might not be able to afford. This is not to mention the possible knock-on effects of other staff looking to benchmark themselves against any raises. And this is the body responsible for an amateur sport where coaches/trainers/referees all over the country give their time for free. It is like the GAA in that sense (ok, GAA refs might get a few quid to cover expenses but that's harmless ....boxing refs can't accept any money)

I think that overall it is a sorry situation and a loss for Irish boxing,but not an insurmountable one. It's a bit of a mess. Like when you know two people who are breaking up and it's done very publicly but you also know that it has got to a stage where that is the only option. I hope that Billy does well in the US. He will have his work cut out as amateur boxing is in a bad state there. I also hope that the Irish team continues to prosper and improve and I am sure that they will do so.

But, Sports Council, keep your noses out please and let the people who know the sport, run the sport

Donald Trump

That said, as an addendum to the above
I am not a fan of the politics and infighting that you get in any organization,and the IABA is not immune. But let them look after their own sport

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

That said, as an addendum to the above
I am not a fan of the politics and infighting that you get in any organization,and the IABA is not immune. But let them look after their own sport

If they want autonomy they would have to be self sufficient

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

If they want autonomy they would have to be self sufficient

If you want to apply that principle, then please apply it consistently across the board.

i.e. The Sports Council must approve the next Irish rugby/soccer coach as long as even a penny is being put into the sport at local/national level.

For example, I have no interest in soccer, but I would still not like to see a situation where some administrator, sitting in the offices of the sports council, can tell the FAI who they can and can't hire.

Maybe you know a person who could be that administrator who has the knowledge to chose the best coaches for the boxing/soccer/kayaking/basketball/shooting/judo/rugby/whatever teams but I would prefer to leave that power in the people who actually know the respective sports

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you want to apply that principle, then please apply it consistently across the board.

i.e. The Sports Council must approve the next Irish rugby/soccer coach as long as even a penny is being put into the sport at local/national level.

For example, I have no interest in soccer, but I would still not like to see a situation where some administrator, sitting in the offices of the sports council, can tell the FAI who they can and can't hire.

Maybe you know a person who could be that administrator who has the knowledge to chose the best coaches for the boxing/soccer/kayaking/basketball/shooting/judo/rugby/whatever teams but I would prefer to leave that power in the people who actually know the respective sports

IABA are almost entirely funded by the taxpayer

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

If they want autonomy they would have to be self sufficient

And on the converse, if the sports council want to have the power, let them fund the whole organization. Let them replace the local fundraisers and contributors from grassroots level up. Not just one or two peoples salaries at the top.

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

IABA are almost entirely funded by the taxpayer

Great. I'm looking forward to seeing the proof of that. Maybe it was only in my club where they used to take a few Euro (only 2 Euro mind) a week from the kids and parents would try to get sponsorship from local businesses and organize fundraising events.

Someone should have told them that the mythical taxpayer would have picked up the bill!

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

Great. I'm looking forward to seeing the proof of that. Maybe it was only in my club where they used to take a few Euro (only 2 Euro mind) a week from the kids and parents would try to get sponsorship from local businesses and organize fundraising events.

Someone should have told them that the mythical taxpayer would have picked up the bill!

€2 a week covers fcuk all

Strazdas

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Has they actually intimated they'll definitely turn up? Dont think they can be forced to appear, though would not seem the smartest move to decline the invitation. But as you say, it's fairly pointless now, only a chance for a few politicians to do some grandstanding and hope it gets on the camera.

They will indeed, Carruth confirmed so in one of his interviews yesterday. Interestingly though, they will be required to provide documentary proof for all of their claims re. Billy Walsh and so will Sport Ireland, so things could potentially get rather awkward for the IABA. Best thing that could happen would be if it could be shown that the IABA were being 'economical with the truth' (I'm being polite here of course).