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Educate Together

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    #32
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,382 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    6541 wrote: »
    They make us Mayo people out to be fools ! I am not sure about this educate together movement, something does not sit well with me about them.

    It is Mayo people would would be going to this educate together..

    They are not 'outsiders'


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    #33
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    In Castlebar itself there are three Catholic schools.
    I can think of 5 off the top of my head..
    6541 wrote: »
    They make us Mayo people out to be fools ! I am not sure about this educate together movement, something does not sit well with me about them.
    Is there an award for most ironic post of the year?

    Nice to Educate Together arriving in the West. Sadly too late for thousands and thousands. But nice all the same.


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    #34
    Ilovelucy
    Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭Ilovelucy


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    I can think of 5 off the top of my head..


    Is there an award for most ironic post of the year?

    Nice to Educate Together arriving in the West. Sadly too late for thousands and thousands. But nice all the same.

    ET school in Ballina since last year.


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    #35
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Ilovelucy wrote: »
    ET school in Ballina since last year.
    Nobody really cares about Ballina though.

    What I mean is, it will be more of a land mark when one opens in Castlebar.


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    #36
    nuac
    Registered Users Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    Nobody really cares about Ballina though.

    What I mean is, it will be more of a land mark when one opens in Castlebar.

    The Greeks may have had some word for the hubris of a county town!


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    #37
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    nuac wrote: »
    The Greeks may have had some word for the hubris of a county town!
    In terms of Castlebar and Ballina? Logic.


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    #38
    happyoutscan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,030 ✭✭✭happyoutscan


    Durcan sounded like an absolute plank. Not that he would think that of course.


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    #39
    nuac
    Registered Users Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭nuac


    happyoutscan wrote: »
    Durcan sounded like an absolute plank. Not that he would think that of course.

    Altho he left FG about 40 years ago, in the various LEs he has got a good vote.

    Probably a fundamental Catholic vote and a reaction to his relentless attacks and insinuations against officials/

    I have disagreed with a lot of what he says, but do agree that Marsh House is a dangerous place for leaving and colllecting children


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    #40
    6541
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭6541


    how about this, Educate Together is as good or as bad as any religious schools. By its very existence it is anti-religious.
    Exactly who is behind educate together and what is their agenda ?


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    #41
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,382 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    6541 wrote: »
    how about this, Educate Together is as good or as bad as any religious schools. By its very existence it is anti-religious.
    Exactly who is behind educate together and what is their agenda ?

    It educates the children as to all religions..

    So how is it anti-religious?


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    #42
    6541
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭6541


    lawred2 wrote: »
    6541 wrote: »
    how about this, Educate Together is as good or as bad as any religious schools. By its very existence it is anti-religious.
    Exactly who is behind educate together and what is their agenda ?

    It educates the children as to all religions..

    So how is it anti-religious?
    it seems to me that it is the yin to yang if you know what I meant. Its reason to exist is to be anti - religious and opposed to be religious. Again who are these people, and what is their agenda. I smell a rat here.


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    #43
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    6541 wrote: »
    By its very existence it is anti-religious.

    No, it's not. It's against the idea that state-funded education should require that children be indoctrinated in a particular religion - a laudable goal in what should be a secular republic.


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    #44
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,382 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    6541 wrote: »
    it seems to me that it is the yin to yang if you know what I meant. Its reason to exist is to be anti - religious and opposed to be religious. Again who are these people, and what is their agenda. I smell a rat here.

    what?

    this is your own issue


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    #45
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    6541 wrote: »
    Again who are these people...
    https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/national-office-staff
    https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/directors
    ...and what is their agenda.
    https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/what-is-educate-together
    I smell a rat here.

    Why?


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    #46
    6541
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭6541


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    6541 wrote: »
    Again who are these people...
    https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/national-office-staff
    https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/directors
    ...and what is their agenda.
    https://www.educatetogether.ie/about/what-is-educate-together
    I smell a rat here.

    Why?
    I Don't mean to be negative, but they just don't sit well with me. Who appoints the school of governors ? Who are they answerable to. Its a bit like Knock airport, the way its owned by a trust. Who exactly is the trust ? Who oversee these people. What is there anti - Religious class. What is their ethos ? More questions then answers with these people.


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    #47
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,382 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    6541 wrote: »
    I Don't mean to be negative, but they just don't sit well with me. Who appoints the school of governors ? Who are they answerable to. Its a bit like Knock airport, the way its owned by a trust. Who exactly is the trust ? Who oversee these people. What is there anti - Religious class. What is their ethos ? More questions then answers with these people.

    What anti religion class are you referring to?

    All the information you seek is freely available on the website.

    Inform yourself first lest you start to look like an ignorant troll.

    What Knock airport has to do with Educate Together is beyond me.


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    #48
    6541
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭6541


    lawred2 wrote: »
    6541 wrote: »
    I Don't mean to be negative, but they just don't sit well with me. Who appoints the school of governors ? Who are they answerable to. Its a bit like Knock airport, the way its owned by a trust. Who exactly is the trust ? Who oversee these people. What is there anti - Religious class. What is their ethos ? More questions then answers with these people.

    What anti religion class are you referring to?

    All the information you seek is freely available on the website.

    Inform yourself first lest you start to look like an ignorant troll.

    What Knock airport has to do with Educate Together is beyond me.
    I just Know that I would not trust these people to educate my children. The whole thing smacks of a political movement as opposed to a genuine attempt to create secular schooling. If we decide to have secular schooling then this should be lead by the government. Not from a bunch of unelected , unknown, faceless people. Like Knock airport who is actually running this ?


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    #49
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    6541 wrote: »
    I just Know that I would not trust these people to educate my children.
    The good news is: you don't need to. You can trust the Catholic Church to educate your children instead (what could possibly go wrong?).

    Now, look at the flip side: if you didn't (for some unfathomable reason) trust a religion to educate your children, and ET didn't exist, what choice would you have?

    Choice is good. That's the point.
    The whole thing smacks of a political movement as opposed to a genuine attempt to create secular schooling.
    What would a "genuine attempt to create secular schooling" look like?
    If we decide to have secular schooling then this should be lead by the government.
    Not sure who "we" is, but lots of parents have decided to have secular schooling, and the government has singularly failed to provide it.

    Basically, what you're arguing is that parents who want secular schooling should have it only when parents who don't want secular schooling agree to it. Which amounts to a veto by religious people over secular education. How is that a good thing?
    Not from a bunch of unelected , unknown, faceless people.
    You know there are names and faces on the pages I linked you to, right?
    Like Knock airport who is actually running this ?
    http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/corporate_structure.aspx

    There are names and faces on that page too, but you'll have to click on the link and look at the page to see them.


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    #50
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    Nobody really cares about Ballina though.

    What I mean is, it will be more of a land mark when one opens in Castlebar.

    Sure, like the difference between Ballina and Castlebar is as wide as the difference between Manhattan and Kiltimagh.
    6541 wrote: »
    how about this, Educate Together is as good or as bad as any religious schools. By its very existence it is anti-religious.
    Exactly who is behind educate together and what is their agenda ?

    It's a bit early to talk about the goodness or badness of ET schools, since they have just arrived, in comparison to Catholic schools that have been around for an age.

    What is your problem with ET schools having an agenda? Do Catholic schools not have an agenda?
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    No, it's not. It's against the idea that state-funded education should require that children be indoctrinated in a particular religion - a laudable goal in what should be a secular republic.

    I don't even think we need to talk about indoctrination here. They will say they are not indoctrinating. Fine. ET, aren't indoctrinating either. What's the problem then : )
    6541 wrote: »
    I just Know that I would not trust these people to educate my children.

    Mathematics, Languages, Science, are just a few of the subjects that are not concerned with religion. I don't know how you can judge in advance that the teachers are not capable of teaching said subject.
    The whole thing smacks of a political movement as opposed to a genuine attempt to create secular schooling.

    A political movement? I though the issue was with religious ethos in schools ? I never heard that Atheism was a political movement.
    If we decide to have secular schooling then this should be lead by the government. Not from a bunch of unelected , unknown, faceless people.

    I feel a but unsettled by this point of view, though not too surprised given your previous comments. To suggest that a majority should decide whether one should have options or not, sounds a bit dictatorial to me.


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    #51
    6541
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭6541


    mark my words - Scandal after scandal will befall this. Educate together are dodge.


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    #52
    Call me Al
    Registered Users Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    The scandal in this whole tale is the behaviour of one of the local elected officials.
    So 6541, have you read any of those links kindly provided to you by Oscar Bravo yet?


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    #53
    6541
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭6541


    That Local elected official voted in favor of the 50 Meter pool. All the others did not. That local elected official nailed it when he said that Educate Together are elitist.


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    #54
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    6541 wrote: »
    That local elected official nailed it when he said that Educate Together are elitist.

    What's elitist about them?


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    #55
    BaaLamb
    Registered Users Posts: 236 ✭✭BaaLamb


    6541 wrote: »
    That Local elected official voted in favor of the 50 Meter pool. All the others did not. That local elected official nailed it when he said that Educate Together are elitist.

    Absolute poppycock in every post you've made on this thread. ET is the furthest thing from elitist you could imagine and I should know as my kids have attended ET schools in different parts of the country. The great thing about ET schools is how diverse they are with people from all walks of life attending. If you read any of the links provided to you by a previous poster then you would understand how silly and paranoid you sound. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

    Edit to add: I've even entrusted one of my children to be taught by them at one of their new secondary schools this year. The horror eh?


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    #56
    signostic
    Registered Users Posts: 5,879 ✭✭✭signostic


    While I am supportive of the idea of Educate together an ERSI 2012 Report on 'School Sector Variation Among Primary Schools in Ireland' gives the following facts on Educate Together schools:
    1. Very few, if any, children from the Travelling community attend these schools. 2. Very few children from lower socioeconomic background attend these schools. 3. The parents of the children attending these schools come from the higher professional classes.
    4. The majority of mothers of children attending these schools are from the degree class.

    Sounds elitist to me but maybe that has changed since.


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    #57
    BaaLamb
    Registered Users Posts: 236 ✭✭BaaLamb


    signostic wrote: »
    While I am supportive of the idea of Educate together an ERSI 2012 Report on 'School Sector Variation Among Primary Schools in Ireland' gives the following facts on Educate Together schools:
    1. Very few, if any, children from the Travelling community attend these schools. 2. Very few children from lower socioeconomic background attend these schools. 3. The parents of the children attending these schools come from the higher professional classes.
    4. The majority of mothers of children attending these schools are from the degree class.

    Sounds elitist to me but maybe that has changed since.

    Hang on a second though, that doesn't mean the Educate Together model is elitist. It simply reflects the make up of parents who have, to date, expressed interest in having an ET school to service their area or who have sent their children to an ET school. ET schools are set up by parents, usually a very dedicated and determined group of parents who want an alternative to the local catholic national school. It stands to reason that many of these parents will be well educated themselves. I'm not sure why mothers of the children having degrees means the ET model is elitist?

    You must remember the travelling community are traditionally very religious and as a result it is likely they will go with the local catholic school over an ET even if there was one in their area. I would expect that as ET schools become more widespread you will find that people who would not previously have sent their children to an ET will begin to see them as the best option for their children. Again I can't see why you consider that ET schools are elitist simply because of their demographic? It doesn't mean that ET discourages other children from joining the schools rather it reflects the make up of the percentage of the population who make the choice to send their children to ET schools.

    For what it is worth my highest level of education is a Masters but I was recently made redundant and have never been in the "higher professional classes" and neither has my husband. Our kids have gone to ET schools with people from all walks of life with professions as diverse as circus performers to big corporate fund managers. There were also Polish, Lithuanian, Romanian and Turkish kids in their classes. I guess the one thing all the parents had in common was an interest in their child having a positive educational experience in a child centred environment where academic excellence isn't the only measure of achievement. ET schools are different but they are not elitist.


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    #58
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    6541 wrote: »
    mark my words - Scandal after scandal will befall this. Educate together are dodge.

    You mean a scandal of the scale the way the Christian Brothers went about their recreational passtimes ?


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    #59
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    Thread going nowhere folks, just a bit of a handbag fight. So rein it in or bans will be handed out.


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    #60
    Niall Keane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    the thing is though, ET is not secular education. They teach about ALL religions in a RESPECTFUL manner.

    as an atheist father of 3 boys I find this not much better than Catholic school. I will still have to sit them down and pour over the bronze-age nonsense and contradictions the religious are expected to believe and they are "expected" to "respect" as if it were a science or something.

    Not only will I have to educate them on the stories of Horus and Mithris and highlight the over 300 identical elements like virgin births, 3 wise men, 12 apostles, raise from the dead, water into wine, healing he sick and blind, having their "baptizers" beheaded, being killed and raising from the dead after 3 days, etc. etc... And then show them the actual stones in Egypt carved over 4000 years ago with this story about the anointed one (christ) the Sun of God named Horus, Yeshu in Aramaic, Jesus to us...

    and then ask them if the old testament sounds like a good book where the god dictates that his people "put to the sword" a whole other tribe, "save the women and young girls who haven't known men, those you may keep for yourselves" ?

    But I'll have to ask them too, if other religious stories sound plausible?

    I'll have to then point to the evidence we have of Constantine's political motives for a state religion, how his councils picked and edited the gospels and how at the time 2/3 of the Roman army consisted of Germanic Mercenaries who otherwise felt no allegiance to Rome and were likely to join the invading barbarians. I'll have to educate them about the politics and tribalism of that time and the preceding centuries of Roman rule.

    I'm sure as they are taught at home about Pompei the teenage butcher and his conquest of the middle east they will see the similarities between then and recent George Bush's conquest, albeit substituting plunder and tribute for oil and contracts. The fractional effect of such conflicts and the issue the Romans had uniting under a single empire such different cultures.

    My children will get to recognize the genius of picking common religious stories that the people of the day could identify with and so more easily adopt, much like later paganism in Ireland where the Roman modus operandi continued... taking pagan sacred sites and making them places of pilgrimage, building churches over temples, making fertility goddesses Brid into saints of chastity Bridget. Allowing ancient feasts to continue in Christian form from Samhain / All Saints to Crom's last weekend of July on the reek...

    Meanwhile the kids in Catholic School, with highly educated fundamentalist parents will continue to believe every obvious lie in the good book is but a "metaphor" that they burned people at the stake for questioning mere centuries ago. hahaha... how brainwashed must one be?

    No, ET ain't secular, it wants to respect the nonsense!

    The world wasn't made in 6 days, and dinosaur fossils weren't placed in rocks to test our faith as some Christians believe, you know the one's you can laugh about as yet you believe in a god that needed to impregnate a teenage girl to give birth to himself so we could crucify him so that he may forgive us for the sins we were yet to commit?

    Have you ever really though about this stuff, I mean really sat down and taken an objective perspective?

    Religion should be a personal matter, get rid of it out of our schools, if you need a god to prevent yourself from killing or harming people then you have serious empathy issues.

    Tolerance is one thing, you want to believe in the flying spaghetti monster - fire away, but Respect is another! You'll never get me to respect that perspective as possibly valid. its just crazy!

    Now, how are parents like me provided for in our "republic"??? (or should I get a tax exemption?)

    ET is a very, very small step in the right direction away from Catholic dogma. Of course it should be in the centre of an urban environment so that it may serve those with and without their own means of transport and facilitate work hours. That's just being as democratic as possible given the scarcity of the service. like I said, a very small step in the right direction.


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    #61
    Niall Keane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Niall Keane


    Of course the simplest solution is the one that should be adopted and the Church if it had any brains would see the advantage too.

    Remove religion entirely form the core school day.

    Allow state schools to be used for voluntary religious instruction by such institutions. so the local priest, pastor, rabbi, Iman and atheist etc. can take a classroom each and if suitably qualified to teach children do so after hours.

    The parents will probably be delighted with the "after care" facility on site in their school, noone has to take off early or quit work entirely for school runs.
    Even the economy benefits...

    Why won't they do this though?

    Answer: because the objective is not to teach religion but to prevent other viewpoints from being disclosed to the young and impressionable who's minds they currently hold a monopoly on (to indoctrinate)!

    Afterall Lucifer was originally "the angel of light" - enlightenment. only later did he become the prince of devils. and the apple that caused all the trouble was from the "tree of knowledge" ... yea... "enlightenment and knowledge" are the principal enemies of the church!


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