hehehe, guess what the biggest demographic in gaming is?

orubiru

Stormhawk88 wrote: »

To me a gamer is a person who is passionate about games and gaming in general. The whole mobile games Vs static games stations is turning into the next Pc Vs console war. Everybody wants to think they are top of the ladder and will defend this notion vehemently. To me each to their own. I personally don't play mobile games because I don't have time for them my phone is used for catching up on news, forums and e-mails.

On the original subject I believe that there is a lot more women in console gaming than we think. My own GF is a gamer with interests from Zelda to Halo and everything in between. She is not afraid to talk about it and genuinely enjoys it.

Also I read this article recently about female gamers and how a large majority don't wear headsets and use male avatars to avoid attention and harassment.

It is an interesting read but warning there is mention of Gamergate for whoever is sick of hearing or reading about it.

http://sciencenordic.com/online-computer-games-force-women-closet

Yeah, there is absolutely a serious problem with bullying and harassment online. Can't say I've experienced it myself but I've read enough articles to be sure it exists. Stuff like this exists in the real world too so it's not a huge surprise to see it online, especially when people can remain anonymous.

I'm sure it's possible to pick holes in the article but that doesn't make the problem go away.

I'm not sure how we solve a problem like this? I'd imagine that bullying and harassment has been a part of society for thousands of years?

I feel like the there has to be a point where raising awareness of a problem has to give way to actually solving the problem.

The article doesn't mention if action was taken against the harassers. Were they banned? Prosecuted? Do the games in question have a "report" function?

If I were to start harassing or bullying posters here on Boards then I could be pretty sure that I will be banned outright? If it was serious enough I'd expect a knock on the door from the police, right?

So, why isn't that happening in these online gaming communities? From what I read this kind of stuff is rife and some of the abuse is quite severe, so why is nothing done?

Links234

orubiru wrote: »

I am damn sure that certain posters on here are seen as more respectable due to considerably higher post counts. Wouldn't you agree?

Not in the least, no. A post count tells you absolutely nothing about the poster.

orubiru wrote: »

I'm not gonna say that someone who plays games on mobile phones is not a "real gamer" but I'm not gonna put them on the same level as someone who spends 1000s of Euros on their hobby.

Ok, so you're not going to say that someone who plays mobile games isn't a real gamer, but then you go on to say this:

orubiru wrote: »

So I think "what happens when you take away mobile gaming stats" is a perfectly valid question. I feel like people objecting to that question being asked are doing so because they know that if we look at demographics of people buying gaming consoles or PCs with the intention of using them to play the most cutting edge games (in technological terms) then the story may be very different.

Isn't what you are doing there is trying to dissect the stats so that you can discount those who play mobile games as not real gamers and therefor skew the results in a way you'd be happier with? How is that not saying they're not real gamers if you want to remove them from a demographic of gamers?

BMMachine

to me, the word "gamer" invokes images of self-righteous keyboard warriors who are entirely smug and completely disconnected from society and how it works. A self-labelling term such as that is just absolutely small minded. No one cares how "into" games you are, just like no one cares about how "into" movies you are. If you happen to know a lot about the subject and are deeply invested in learning more and expressing ideas about it, great! go you! But no one is a Movie-er or a Book-er or a Music-er and even if they have characteristics in which they self identify by said cultural art form, they are still just a person underneath.

There is a sh*t load of things wrong with the culture of some music and other artistic forms and the same rings true of gaming. I've been playing games online for.. I'd say 18 years now, maybe more and 'gaming' since 1990 and in my experience there is a metric f**k ton of absolute morons who use the term of "gamer". Gamergate, Twitch chat, the unstoppable flood of dribblers into online games, 'fanboys' etc. ugh, just ugh. Its a term with far far far far more negative connotations than good ones and its about time it was done away with

orubiru

Links234 wrote: »

Isn't what you are doing there is trying to dissect the stats so that you can discount those who play mobile games as not real gamers and therefor skew the results in a way you'd be happier with? How is that not saying they're not real gamers if you want to remove them from a demographic of gamers?

No.

What I'd be doing there is acknowledging that "gamer" and "gaming" are terms that are too broad to be able to come to any reasonable conclusions.

I don't want to discount those who play mobile games. I want to see how the stats change when "games" are separated out by platform and genre etc.

The facts and results are what they are. My happiness would not come in to it. Asking for more detailed results shouldn't be any kind of problem at all.

When the article starts a paragraph with "Sorry, male gamers of Reddit and 4Chan" or when the OP says "news like this fills me with joy and the "ethics" crowd with dread" then I have to say hang on a minute, I want to have a look at the data and make sure you aren't hiding something.

Links234

BMMachine wrote: »

But no one is a Movie-er or a Book-er or a Music-er and even if they have characteristics in which they self identify by said cultural art form, they are still just a person underneath.

No there's no music-er or the like, but there are plenty of subcultures therein that are a social identity wrapped up in what they enjoy/consume. Take metalheads for example. And yeah, there's assholes in the metal scene too, a hell of a lot of them in fact (you know the type, the pompous asshole who tries to lord it over you saying their taste in music is better, etc) but I still consider myself a metalhead regardless. Likewise I don't take any exception to the label gamer either, I'll happily consider myself a gamer, but I don't think that it defines me as a person.

Stormhawk88

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

I ain't sick of hearing about it.
I'm sick of disinformation.

I can't comment on gamergate itself as I have no idea what it construes so I apologise if there was dis information regarding to it in the article. I was only warning as I have seen posts in reference to it around the this forum and others.

I was more interested in the fact that most women hide there identity which makes it harder to get a feel when you are playing online how many are women vs men.

orubiru wrote: »

Yeah, there is absolutely a serious problem with bullying and harassment online. Can't say I've experienced it myself but I've read enough articles to be sure it exists. Stuff like this exists in the real world too so it's not a huge surprise to see it online, especially when people can remain anonymous.

I'm sure it's possible to pick holes in the article but that doesn't make the problem go away.

I'm not sure how we solve a problem like this? I'd imagine that bullying and harassment has been a part of society for thousands of years?

I feel like the there has to be a point where raising awareness of a problem has to give way to actually solving the problem.

The article doesn't mention if action was taken against the harassers. Were they banned? Prosecuted? Do the games in question have a "report" function?

If I were to start harassing or bullying posters here on Boards then I could be pretty sure that I will be banned outright? If it was serious enough I'd expect a knock on the door from the police, right?

So, why isn't that happening in these online gaming communities? From what I read this kind of stuff is rife and some of the abuse is quite severe, so why is nothing done?

Its the internet and as I am sure everybody knows that people use there anonymity to be horrible people. It has happened to myself and my girlfriend but it is always laughable and we never take any notice.

But there are people who are not so thick skinned and it can effect everybody differently.

The most interesting thing about the article as I say above is you never get the feeling that there is women playing because it is usually men on headsets. So the original article could be quite accurate.

K.O.Kiki

TBH I'd probably hide my identity online too.

What kind of adult wants to play with a bunch of loony, shouty 12yo scrubs anyway?

MUTE ALL 4 life.

Sieghardt

BMMachine wrote: »

But no one is a Movie-er or a Book-er or a Music-er and even if they have characteristics in which they self identify by said cultural art form, they are still just a person underneath.

because those groups have further subdivided into subcultures, you dont have a "movie-er" or "book-er" because instead you have a million groups like Trekkies and 1Directioners and Beliebers

In more broadly shared experiences you absolutely have bikers, hikers, LARPers, fencers, surfers, skaters even fecking gongoozlers

and literally nobody ever in the history of the universe ever has thought that being a gamer made them not a person. If you think that, that's pretty disturbing tbh

BMMachine

Sieghardt wrote: »

and literally nobody ever in the history of the universe ever has thought that being a gamer made them not a person. If you think that, that's pretty disturbing tbh

the point I was making was about self identification and de-humanising other people by labelling them

Jerichoholic

Including mobile gaming in this makes it nonsense. Unless you consider a 1D fashion show quiz app a proper game. It's like calling someone a college graduate because they walked passed Trinity that one time.

Sieghardt

BMMachine wrote: »

the point I was making was about self identification and de-humanising other people by labelling them

and my point was that if you dehumanize someone for adopting a label, that's a problem with you, not a problem with the person identifying with the label

H3llR4iser

Stormhawk88 wrote: »

...My own GF is a gamer with interests from Zelda to Halo and everything in between. She is not afraid to talk about it and genuinely enjoys it.

Also I read this article recently about female gamers and how a large majority don't wear headsets and use male avatars to avoid attention and harassment.

It is an interesting read but warning there is mention of Gamergate for whoever is sick of hearing or reading about it.

http://sciencenordic.com/online-computer-games-force-women-closet

The article makes a few fair points, but also misguided in some areas.

A lot (if not most) female gamers try to conceal their gender
This tends to be quite true. In many years playing online, I did stumble into quite a few examples - they only revealed being ladies after getting acquainted with a group over a week or two.

This however poses an issue when it comes to the "statistics": the only reliable, unbiased way to properly assess an "headcount" would be to extract data from existing player bases - e.g. registered players from MMOs and the likes. And these databases are likely filled with male profiles almost exclusively, as women would thick "male" in the gender box. No way to tell.

"Nearly 80 percent of the participants have seen words like “gay” and “retard” being used in an abusive manner. Just over half of them have seen the words “whore”, “pussy” and “****” being used, in addition to “rape” and other expressions which involves threats of violence."
In all fairness, this kind of crap also gets in the way of my own enjoyment when it comes to online games. It's the reason I tend to avoid voice chat at all costs, unless it's a private channel with players I know.

I don't find it "offensive", but annoying, childish, stupid and irritating. It has to be said that such words or lines are quite often if not most of the times, delivered in the screechy, whiny high pitched voice of a 8-12 years old boy. Which actually makes me even more pissed off at their parents, most likely people around my age, who clearly don't remotely possess the required brainpower to understand how letting a child play online unsupervised it's not a good idea - in any shape or form, both for the kids and the other people who are trying to play.

“The harassments are transmitted from the fantasy world of the gamers into the real world.”This happens, not limited to the gaming environment I am afraid (the "internet lynch mob" is a very real and very fearsome phenomena), and most definitely not just limited to women in the gaming industry.

The example they report ("sweet, soft spoken gamer girl hounded outside of the game through facebook etc.") has, however, more to do with excessive hormonal turmoil than else. Quite literally, a gamer woman - any gamer woman - has on the gaming community the same effect that Bar Rafaeli would have walking into a nightclub that was packed exclusively with young men: everyone will clamber upon each other in order to get an ounce of her attention.

To many male gamers, meeting a girl/woman who is in the same stuff as they are and doesn't belittle it as "childish games" represents a dream, and it can cloud their judgement when they feel there may be just that person in the vicinity. And here we go back to the "concealing the gender" part.

So, what's to take form the article?
The author wants to imply that there are many more gamer women than it is apparent, and that they mostly hide themselves because of a generally "hostile-ish" environment. I'm not fully in agreement with the latter - the gaming community/environment is actually fairly hostile to anybody who easily takes offence and/or expects any kind of manners, not exclusively to women - but I can understand and might actually partially agree with the general statement.

The construct of there being a lot of women gamers (up to 48% of the total) seems to go against personal experience, both mine and of many posters here.

One of the first questions that comes to my mind: how many of the people watching/writing in this thread are women? Would be interesting to know - I don't expect the figure to be anywhere near 50%, but I really wish to be proven wrong...

kunst nugget

Jerichoholic wrote: »

Including mobile gaming in this makes it nonsense. Unless you consider a 1D fashion show quiz app a proper game.

Tbf, you might only be using your phone to play the 1D fashion show quiz app but there are a whole range of other games out there that you can play. You should check them out.

Retr0gamer

Jerichoholic wrote: »

Including mobile gaming in this makes it nonsense. Unless you consider a 1D fashion show quiz app a proper game. It's like calling someone a college graduate because they walked passed Trinity that one time.

And making a comment like that is saying you are commenting as someone who didn't actually read the article and study. The study goes into great detail to seperate the data into different subsets to and does show that a lot of women play games on mobile platforms.

BMMachine

Sieghardt wrote: »

and my point was that if you dehumanize someone for adopting a label, that's a problem with you, not a problem with the person identifying with the label

correct. where do you think the word "n****r" came from and associated other words? Slave owners and the like wanted to dehumanize their slaves so you couldnt call them john and barry etc, so instead it was "negro's" which was then adopted, twisted and used by the slaves.
Never label yourself. You aren't a 'gamer' you are a person.

Taylor365

BMMachine wrote: »

correct. where do you think the word "n****r" came from and associated other words? Slave owners and the like wanted to dehumanize their slaves so you couldnt call them john and barry etc, so instead it was "negro's" which was then adopted, twisted and used by the slaves.
Never label yourself. You aren't a 'gamer' you are a person.

I'm a right nagger myself sometimes.

Jerichoholic

BMMachine wrote: »

correct. where do you think the word "n****r" came from and associated other words? Slave owners and the like wanted to dehumanize their slaves so you couldnt call them john and barry etc, so instead it was "negro's" which was then adopted, twisted and used by the slaves.
Never label yourself. You aren't a 'gamer' you are a person.

You can't seriously be comparing slavery to being a gamer.

kunst nugget

Jerichoholic wrote: »

You can't seriously be comparing slavery to being a gamer.

I'm a slave to the rhythm...

Sieghardt

BMMachine wrote: »

correct. where do you think the word "n****r" came from and associated other words? Slave owners and the like wanted to dehumanize their slaves so you couldnt call them john and barry etc, so instead it was "negro's" which was then adopted, twisted and used by the slaves.
Never label yourself. You aren't a 'gamer' you are a person.

:eaving aside how awful the comparison is, your argument is racists dont have a problem, the problem isnt with them? They arent filled with hate themselves, it was the label that did it

That's um, well, I'm going to disagree with you on that one :pac:

Retr0gamer

Let's just pre-empt Godwin's Law before this goes any further.

It's all Hitler's fault.

kunst nugget

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Let's just pre-empt Godwin's Law before this goes any further.

It's all Hitler's fault.

I blame the Russians. Anytime I try to play at 60fps, my games are always stalin…

BMMachine

Jerichoholic wrote: »

You can't seriously be comparing slavery to being a gamer.

A to B to Z there mate.

Jerichoholic

I'm not a slave, I'm a gamer.

BMMachine

Jerichoholic wrote: »

I'm not a slave, I'm a gamer.

super news. I'm a person. I like video games, movies, books, music, burgers, Kurt Russell etc.
I don't identify myself by these things. I don't label others by their hobbies either. When I come across people that do identify themselves in that way, I feel a little sorry for them for closing that space in on themselves. I think the connotations of labelling people are very dangerous and although 'gamer' isn't really all that when it comes to said danger, I still think that labelling is absolutely negative and shows a certain degree of small mindedness.

It also doesn't help that when I've come across people that self identify as "gamers" in real life, they have for the most part been absolute dribblers

Links234

BMMachine wrote: »

It also doesn't help that when I've come across people that self identify as "gamers" in real life, they have for the most part been absolute dribblers

I've come across people who don't self identify as "gamers" in real life and they've been absolute dribblers too. Checkmate :pac:

BMMachine

Links234 wrote: »

I've come across people who don't self identify as "gamers" in real life and they've been absolute dribblers too. Checkmate :pac:

ha, I get ya but you know what I mean, the old cliche of unwashed, snobbish and socially ignorant idiots didnt come from nowhere. On the flipside, I've met some and they are the loveliest people on the planet. I just don't think the label of gamer should be applied to people. If you want to self identify as one, grand go ahead, but I really don't see the point in it

Links234

I find that in general it's the people who object to labels that put way too much emphasis on them. I'll refer to myself as a gamer, or a metalhead, or a Trekkie, or sometimes I'll even jokingly call myself a weeaboo, they don't mean that much to me, they just describe my interests. People all the time refer to themselves in "I'm a ..." terms as short-hand for describing their likes or preferences or hobbies. I mean, how often do we hear people say things "I'm more of dog person..."?

It's less of a label and more of a short-hand tbh.

BMMachine

I get ya, I still don't like it though

Potatoeman

Jerichoholic wrote: »

You can't seriously be comparing slavery to being a gamer.

Slave tetris.

Jerichoholic

BMMachine wrote: »

super news. I'm a person. I like video games, movies, books, music, burgers, Kurt Russell etc.
I don't identify myself by these things. I don't label others by their hobbies either. When I come across people that do identify themselves in that way, I feel a little sorry for them for closing that space in on themselves. I think the connotations of labelling people are very dangerous and although 'gamer' isn't really all that when it comes to said danger, I still think that labelling is absolutely negative and shows a certain degree of small mindedness.

It also doesn't help that when I've come across people that self identify as "gamers" in real life, they have for the most part been absolute dribblers

Wasn't being serious, just your comparison reminded me of those feminism heroes/war heroes, slavery/gamer etc.

I'm all against labels, especially this current trend of people calling themselves trans/human/pans people/potatokin etc. It's all the internet's fault.