Odd deductions from deposit by landlady

Lemming

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The OP has broken their lease. The OP is in an extremely weak position as regards return of deposit

That is not correct, in so much as you have painted the matter.

The OP may be in an extremely weak position as regards the return of their deposit, depending on the duration of time left outstanding on the lease. As others have pointed out, a tenant breaking a lease is not simply a euphimism for "dibs on the entire deposit" and landlords cannot just arbitrarily withhold a figure that they've pulled out of their @rses.

Sun in Capri

What about Part 4 tenancy? This would have meant you would not have had to sign a renewed Lease after the first one and you would have just had to give 8 weeks notice to leave.

antoinolachtnai

Lemming wrote: »

That is not correct, in so much as you have painted the matter.

The OP may be in an extremely weak position as regards the return of their deposit, depending on the duration of time left outstanding on the lease. As others have pointed out, a tenant breaking a lease is not simply a euphimism for "dibs on the entire deposit" and landlords cannot just arbitrarily withhold a figure that they've pulled out of their @rses.

Well, a letting fee is 4 to 8 percent of the yearly rent plus VAT, which is between 2.5 and 5 weeks rent. Add a void of a week and there's not a whole lot of deposit left.

gaius c

newacc2015 wrote: »

What Bulbs are they though? If its a few cheap, incandescent bulbs. I doubt OP was living in darkness for several months, as he didnt replace them. Even if its CFLs, with a lifecycle of 5-10 years, you cant assume all of them went at once. I have feeling the landlord, might have brought a few lightbulbs for her own house using OPs deposit.

Just re-read it there and it looks like the landlord is billing for the replacement of every single bulb in the apartment.

gaius c

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, a letting fee is 4 to 8 percent of the yearly rent plus VAT, which is between 2.5 and 5 weeks rent. Add a void of a week and there's not a whole lot of deposit left.

Does a tenant have to pay the re-letting fee when they move out under normal circumstances?

TheChizler

gaius c wrote: »

Does a tenant have to pay the re-letting fee when they move out under normal circumstances?

Absolutely not, should be included as part the regular rent along with any other costs the landlord incurs (within market rent).

There might be a case for taking part of the fee if a lease is finished early, but they would have to re-let eventually so it's cheeky to include the whole thing. They're hardly going to refund the tenant the equivalent of re-letting costs if they stay longer than the original lease and save the LL advertising money.

antoinolachtnai

We are a bit off the original query, but if you leave 4 months into a 12 month lease, the landlord is entitled to be made 'whole', i.e. returned to the state he was in before you broke the lease. The best way for this to happen is for him to get the property let as quickly as possible, at the same price it was previously rented at. Renting property does not happen for free. There is a real cost to it. You can make the argument that only part of the cost is attributable, but it is still a real cost.

In general, the PRTB guidance is on the side of the landlord in this situation.

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/deposit-refund

In such circumstances it is at the landlord's discretion whether or not to retain from the deposit any outstanding rent due under the lease agreement.

DhalsimHibiki

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The OP has broken their lease. The OP is in an extremely weak position as regards return of deposit. On the face of it the tenant is liable for letting fees and covering any void period. This is more than the deposit. On a bad day at PRTB the tenant could end up with an order against them to pay landlord costs beyond the deposit.

Really a separate thing but I don't understand why tenants or for that matter landlords sign 12 month extension leases. It often ends in strife and the only one who really gains is the agent.

I have contacted her and the landlady basically told me that I should go to the PRTB and that she won't give me any deposit as I complained about her terms, furthermore adding €500 costs for things she claimed she hadn't charged me for yet.

Now another question: the lease ended at the end of January so we asked to renew it. She said that she would draft a new lease. 3 days later I asked her for updates and she said she would have to check the market rate and that she would revert to me with a new price. 11 days before the end of the lease she contacted us and told us that she increases the rent by 200 euro and asked whether we were still interested in a new lease.

We were completely unaware that there were any tenants rights that would protect us from her making such a snap rent increase (I now learned that it takes at least 28 days to be legal) so we complied, being afraid that she might opt to not renew our lease.
She sent us the contract weeks later but...we simply never signed it and she was totally ok with it. No one mentioned it again, until she told me that she charges me €500 for breaking the lease.

I really would never have even considered to be an ass about this but now that she is threatening to take my entire deposit and charge me even more (400 euro to clean a 1 bedroom apartment that I already had cleaned by a cleaner from hassle.ie for 3 hours!). Is it a good idea to bring this up in front of the PRTB? I understand that this is a separate issue from the repairs/cleaning but I feel like never even signing a new 12 month lease should cover me from the cost of breaking it.

Ideas?

antoinolachtnai

Well, if you didn't sign the lease, then the stuff I said above about having broken the lease is not applicable. Take care, however, that you have actually given the correct notice for leaving in accordance with the Act. However, she does seem to have accepted the notice you gave, so maybe that is moot.

I would get your landlord to give her position in writing, then decide whether to go to PRTB. Ask her to produce the lease on which she says she is relying. It does sound like you might have some sound facts on your side.

a.

TheChizler

Lease doesn't necessarily be signed to be binding, doesn't necessarily have to be written down.

DhalsimHibiki

TheChizler wrote: »

Lease doesn't necessarily be signed to be binding, doesn't necessarily have to be written down.

Everything in the lease? I am under the assumption that I still have all the rights and duties of the old contract but that the duration might not be covered.

Shelga

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html#l8d5d4

Sounds like there was no official lease agreement anymore, so it does sound like it was a periodic tenancy at that point.

However it seems the rules in Ireland are different, and because you lived there 2+ years you were obliged to give 8 weeks' notice. :-/

Have you tried ringing Citizens' Advice?

Tiddlypeeps

Shelga wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html#l8d5d4

Sounds like there was no official lease agreement anymore, so it does sound like it was a periodic tenancy at that point.

However it seems the rules in Ireland are different, and because you lived there 2+ years you were obliged to give 8 weeks' notice. :-/

Have you tried ringing Citizens' Advice?

A shorter notice period can be agreed to by both parties. From the sounds of it the landlord was fine with a months notice until after the tenant moved out. If this is the case it would not be reasonable for the landlord to retroactively decide a months notice was no longer ok. I really can't see the PRTB taking the landlords side on that one.

OP I would just open a case with the PRTB and be done with it. It could take a bit for them to settle it but you will very likely get most of your deposit back, based on what you have said here anyway.

Emme

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

I did give her a months notice and everything was fine until the issue of deposit arose. I even have a reference where she calls me an "excellent tenant" after she inspected the apartment at the end of the lease. This is particularly odd because now she insists on the €400 cleaning cost as the apartment was "filthy" in her opinion.

OP, the only thing you can do now is go to the PRTB. Your LL might think you won't. Put everything in writing regarding your occupancy from the start (deposit, monthly rent, lease renewal, rent increase etc.). Keep written records of all correspondence between you and the LL. Let them know what she was trying to take out of your deposit and that she refused to give you any of your deposit when you questioned the breakdown of expenses.

Landlords like this give GOOD landlords a bad name.

athtrasna

UK and Irish tenancy laws are not comparable. Posts referring to UK situation have been deleted as off topic and confusing.

DhalsimHibiki

Hey again,

the issue is now settled and I wanted to give an update for anybody who might have similar problems in the future.

The PRTB sided pretty much wholly with me. They acknowledged about €100 for the damages, however, the landlord was ordered to pay me an additional €100 as the landlord's claims were unsubstantiated and thus only resulted in me not getting my deposit back in a timely fashion. All in all I lost around €20 of which €15 were the cost of the PRTB case.

I would say that if you are unfairly treated you should stand up for yourself. I almost lost €900 because I was lead to believe that I should be content with €120 and if I questioned it I would have to even pay out of my own pocket.

Thanks to everyone giving advice.

newacc2015

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

Hey again,

the issue is now settled and I wanted to give an update for anybody who might have similar problems in the future.

The PRTB sided pretty much wholly with me. They acknowledged about €100 for the damages, however, the landlord was ordered to pay me an additional €100 as the landlord's claims were unsubstantiated and thus only resulted in me not getting my deposit back in a timely fashion. All in all I lost around €20 of which €15 were the cost of the PRTB case.

I would say that if you are unfairly treated you should stand up for yourself. I almost lost €900 because I was lead to believe that I should be content with €120 and if I questioned it I would have to even pay out of my own pocket.

Thanks to everyone giving advice.

Did you use phone mediation or an actual hearing. As that seems like a very short time frame for the PRTB to act

DhalsimHibiki

As the differences were insurmountable via conversation I opted for adjudication rather than mediation. I went for the actual hearing. I got a hearing appointment about 1 week after (i was notified of the hearing date 3 weeks in advance) I reported the case to the PRTB. From creating the case to receiving the adjudicator's decision mail the whole process took about 1.5 months. After that either party had 21 days to appeal after which the decision becomes legally binding. The paying party then has 7 days from that point in time to pay. I received the money about 3 months after setting up the case with the PRTB.

Arbiter of Good Taste

bizleads wrote: »

Unfortunately you wont get your deposit back, nobody does.

Sorry but this is a load of crap. Good tenants who leave the property in good order get their deposit back. When I was renting, I always got my deposit back. Now, as a landlord, I've been lucky with my tenants (so far) and as a result ones who have left have gotten their deposit back.

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

newacc2015

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

Hey again,

the issue is now settled and I wanted to give an update for anybody who might have similar problems in the future.

The PRTB sided pretty much wholly with me. They acknowledged about €100 for the damages, however, the landlord was ordered to pay me an additional €100 as the landlord's claims were unsubstantiated and thus only resulted in me not getting my deposit back in a timely fashion. All in all I lost around €20 of which €15 were the cost of the PRTB case.

I would say that if you are unfairly treated you should stand up for yourself. I almost lost €900 because I was lead to believe that I should be content with €120 and if I questioned it I would have to even pay out of my own pocket.

Thanks to everyone giving advice.

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

As the differences were insurmountable via conversation I opted for adjudication rather than mediation. I went for the actual hearing. I got a hearing appointment about 1 week after (i was notified of the hearing date 3 weeks in advance) I reported the case to the PRTB. From creating the case to receiving the adjudicator's decision mail the whole process took about 1.5 months. After that either party had 21 days to appeal after which the decision becomes legally binding. The paying party then has 7 days from that point in time to pay. I received the money about 3 months after setting up the case with the PRTB.

It great to see a positive PRTB story for once. They usually take an age to deal with even minor cases

Greenmachine

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

Hey again,

the issue is now settled and I wanted to give an update for anybody who might have similar problems in the future.

The PRTB sided pretty much wholly with me. They acknowledged about €100 for the damages, however, the landlord was ordered to pay me an additional €100 as the landlord's claims were unsubstantiated and thus only resulted in me not getting my deposit back in a timely fashion. All in all I lost around €20 of which €15 were the cost of the PRTB case.

I would say that if you are unfairly treated you should stand up for yourself. I almost lost €900 because I was lead to believe that I should be content with €120 and if I questioned it I would have to even pay out of my own pocket.

Thanks to everyone giving advice.

I do think you got lucky. Only for the fact you hadn't signed the new lease things could have gone differently. The cleaning and damages cost would still have been justified, the cost of re letting would still required a burden of proof for the landlord to prove he suffered a loss there. No idea if he had actually suffered a loss there. If you had signed the contract you would have been into a new lease period, and had notice period obligations to fulfill as well as the period of the lease.

DhalsimHibiki

I actually did sign the lease (stupid to forget, I know). The thing is that the landlord made massive unjustified deductions and tried to make me take a small amount of the deposit and stating that I would not have to pay for their other costs (re-letting and some bogus repairs). When I mentioned that we should settle this with the PRTB the landlord suddenly stated that they wanted to charge me for re-letting after all.
The PRTB said that the landlord first agreed to cover the re-letting cost and only changed their mind when I mentioned the PRTB, basically the landlord wanted to punish me for not accepting their offer. As the landlord offered to drop the re-letting cost and I agreed to that there was no backing out of that quasi contract (maybe there would have been a way but not like this as it was clear that the landlord just wanted to punish me for not playing their game).

There was no actual proof for most of the repairs and the cleaning. No pictures were taken, nothing was shown, the only thing that was provided was a receipt from a company that does not even offer cleaning but rather "apartment makeovers".