Hiring Practices in Taxpayer funded Quangos and Schools

steddyeddy

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Well who else is going to employ him?

No one really. That doesn't mean the taxpayer should.

ToddyDoody

steddyeddy wrote: »

No one really. That doesn't mean the taxpayer should.

In principle, Definately.

In practice, we had Anglo Irish Bank.

Try to ignore minor nepotism if possible I'd arrogantly say.

steddyeddy

Hey guys here's an article relating to taxpayer funded nepotism in the HSE that myself and other posters were imagining.



Irish News »


HSE at the centre of nepotism row -- again

More unadvertised posts filled by relatives despite ongoing probe

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DANIEL McCONNELL Chief Reporter
04/07/2010 | 05:00


Nepotism is rampant throughout the Health Service Executive (HSE), as the Sunday Independent has exposed another group of children of senior managers being appointed to jobs which were not advertised.


Three weeks ago, this newspaper revealed that the children of four managers in a Cork office and three children of managers in Limerick were appointed to non-advertised positions despite a national moratorium on recruitment.


This weekend, the Sunday Independent has learned the children of another three senior managers in Dublin were appointed to clerical grade-three positions on a temporary basis to aid in the administration of the Back to School Scheme. However, these people are still in their posts over a year later.


The individuals involved in the Dublin office are: Eoin Tighe, son of regional manager Rita Tighe; Grace Whittle, daughter of superintendent Joseph Whittle; and Mark Mulvihill, son of senior manager Noel Mulvihill

Gongoozler

steddyeddy wrote: »

It's not that I don't believe you. I just seen the contrary first hand.

You said you don't find it credible that I haven't witnessed it. That's saying that you don't believe me when I say I haven't. I've experience in my current organisation of not getting a job I knew very well, when my own bosses told me I would be good at it, they chose an external candidate over two internals in fact. Because the person they chose had more suitable experience.

steddyeddy

Gongoozler wrote: »

You said you don't find it credible that I haven't witnessed it. That's saying that you don't believe me when I say I haven't. I've experience in my current organisation of not getting a job I knew very well, when my own bosses told me I would be good at it, they chose an external candidate over two internals in fact. Because the person they chose had more suitable experience.

I didn't say nepotism always takes precedence over suitability, I said it happens a lot in my experience. The article I posted previously echos my experiences.

steddyeddy

As the article says 4 children of HSE managers in the Cork office, 3 in Limerick's office and 4 in Dublin's office appointed to unadvertised temporary roles (the children were there a year later). So guys are you really sure there's not a culture of nepotism in the public service?

ToddyDoody

steddyeddy wrote: »

As the article says 4 children of HSE managers in the Cork office, 3 in Limerick's office and 4 in Dublin's office appointed to unadvertised temporary roles (the children were there a year later). So guys are you really sure there's not a culture of nepotism in the public service?

I'd say in Ireland the first Columbine will happen in a county council... but, of course, god forbid.

steddyeddy

And in case you're like me and hate the Independent here's more from the Examiner:

None of 13 temporary positions as Grade 3 clerical officers in the HSE South region were advertised, while the vacancies in Limerick were only advertised to existing staff. A HSE source said the “vast majority” of 15 temporary CWOs working in Limerick were family members and friends of HSE staff.

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Among those to be appointed to jobs, which carry an annual salary of over €29,000, were Rosaleen Walsh, daughter of HSE project officer Ignatius Walsh; Killian O’Sullivan, husband of HSE CWO Geraldine O’Rourke; and Kevin Gaffney, husband of HSE CWO Anne Mulcair.

The daughter of the HSE Mid-West’s acting director of social inclusion, Tony Quilty, was also interviewed for a post. Mr Quilty declined to comment when contacted yesterday.

Among those to obtain jobs with an annual salary of over €23,000 in the HSE South area were Orlaith Healy, the daughter of HSE South regional director of operations Pat Healy; Gillian O’Brien, daughter of HSE South assistant national director of human resources Barry O’Brien; Richard Laide, son of HSE South senior finance official Mick Laide; and Mark O’Donovan, son of HSE head of procurement John O’Donovan.

One eyed Jack

steddyeddy wrote: »

Jack I'm at work so I'll reply to all of your points when I'm back but could you clarify your position? You say nepotism isn't rife and then you ask would I engage in it myself through appointment of family and friends. What's your views on nepotism? Right or wrong?

My view on nepotism is that if it means a person is aware of someone they deem suitable for a position they know is available, then I wouldn't have an issue with them recommending that person for the available position. There's no "right" or "wrong" about it, it is what it is.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I didn't say nepotism always takes precedence over suitability, I said it happens a lot in my experience. The article I posted previously echos my experiences.

You kinda made a balls of the copy and paste job there -

AN inquiry into alleged nepotism in the Health Service Executive (HSE), which saw the relatives of several senior executives hired for well-paid summer work, has forced an overhaul of recruitment systems, the Irish Independent has learned.

There was fury during the summer after it emerged that the children and spouses of senior HSE staff were taken on, mostly in Cork and Limerick, to help speed up the payment of the Back to School Clothing and Footwear Allowance, which is provided by the HSE.

It led to former HSE chief Brendan Drumm ordering an internal inquiry to find out if normal recruitment codes had been breached.

...

The Irish Independent understands that the inquiry report has now been sent to the Commission for Public Service Appointments, which is to draw up new guidelines.

The report found that the human resources managers who hired the workers used the existing code of practice in the public service, which allows for short cuts to be taken in the hiring of staff for critical, unplanned and short-term service needs.

This code, which allows managers to examine existing CVs on file and recruit without advertising, should only be called in when critical staff such as doctors or nurses are needed.

The inquiry team said it should not have been used to recruit managerial, administrative or clerical staff.

The fault appeared to be one of interpretation of the code rather than a breach.

It has also outlawed the practice of local regional health offices holding on to "unsolicited" CVs from job applicants who send in their documentation even though no immediate job is available.

...

They said they already had a bank of CVs on file and recruited from their ranks in the interest of time and efficiency.

However, the inquiry team said this must not be repeated and a directive has now been sent to all regional health offices saying proper procedures must be followed in future.

The inquiry said the HSE managers were not guilty of nepotism, adding all candidates had been interviewed.

If nepotism was involved, it would have had to include collusion from recruitment officers and interview boards, the report said.

Source: HSE hiring policy to change after nepotism claims

Bold emphasis my own. The worst thing they were guilty of there was a possible breach of data protection codes of practice which holds that they shouldn't be keeping CV's on file, and they should discard of CV's after a position has been filled.

Here's another recent article from 2014 -

THE HSE HAS defended itself against criticism about filling vacancies internally without interviewing the staff.

Cork North Central Fine Gael Senator and Seanad Spokesperson for Health, Colm Burke, had called for a review of the current procedures whereby HSE staff vacancies are filled internally without any interview process.
He said that he was told that 1,126 management/administrative employees were made permanent in a higher grade to the role they were previously held.

“All of these employees had been acting up in a temporary capacity at a higher grade for a defined period of time prior to being promoted,” he said.
He described it as a “lack of a fair and transparent process” in filling these positions and said the system “is seriously flawed”.

“To have over 1,100 positions filled without open competition is not in the best interests of the organisation,” said Burke, who called on the Minister for Health, Leo Varadkar TD, to immediately clarify and confirm that positions which are vacant will not be filled in this way in the future.

HSE response

The HSE pointed out that there has been a public sector-wide recruitment moratorium in place since 2009.

In addition, the HSE’s employment control ceiling has reduced year-on-year over the last five years.

Its employment control framework provides for admin posts deemed to be critical to the delivery of frontline services to be filled by redeployment, reassignment or restructuring of current workloads or the reorganisation of services/activity.

When critical vacancies arise, they can be filled by way of staff redeployment following an ‘expression of interest’ (ie internal process to redeploy or reassign staff to a priority post) notice through which staff are alerted to the post to be filled from within the existing staff cohort on a grade to grade basis.


The HSE said it has “no option but to fill certain essential supervisory and management positions in this way” since the moratorium on recruitment and promotion.

The HSE accepts that filling essential posts in this manner is not a desirable route. However, in order to ensure the provision of essential health services, the HSE is obliged to take these necessary measures in filling important empty posts.

The HSE added that between March 2009 and December 2013, the number of management/admin posts in the HSE has reduced by by 1,764 WTEs, or 13.86%.

It described this reduction as “understated when you consider that the HSE subsumed a number of external agencies during this period”.

Source: HSE accepts that hiring staff internally without interview isn’t “desirable”

Here's a report on HSE hiring practices from 2013 -

Report on Pre-Appointment Screening Procedures employed by the National Recruitment Service for the Health Service Executive (HSE)

And a snippet from the Conclusions -

Following its review of the processes and procedures in use by the NRS to screen candidates at the final stage of the appointment process the Commission found that, in the main, best practice is applied in accordance with the standards set out in the Code of Practice.

And this is the code of practice they're referring to -

CODE OF PRACTICE APPOINTMENT TO POSITIONS IN THE CIVIL SERVICE AND PUBLIC SERVICE


Now, if someone can actually cut through that mind-numbing level of red tape (HSE Recruitment and Selection Procedures General) for someone, I would say fair play to them, rather than scream nepotism or whatever.

While nepotism is wrong it dose not nesserley follow that just because they are related to someone in their work place it was nepotism they could have been the best person.

Years ago I know someone who got a job very legitimately it turned out when she started work in the place her husbands cousin worked there she didn't know this before hand and as the job was sought after she began to here gossip that it was nepotism that got her the job she was so upset and it really affected her negatively.

Roger Hassenforder

cars14 wrote: »

My Manager gave me a bad reference to a contracting company despite my never making a mistake all year. I am exploring other career options as I have other skills.

Given public servants are afraid of their shyte of being sued for defamation if they give a bad reference for someone, I find this highly improbable.
How do you know he/she gave a bad one?

If you're trying to get into public service, experience in the public service is invaluable. This might necessitate you doing some voluntary work experience, usually if you're any way useful, they'll try and pull something for you.

The_Valeyard

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Given public servants are afraid of their shyte of being sued for defamation if they give a bad reference for someone, I find this highly improbable.
How do you know he/she gave a bad one?

This is true, from looking at references in the past, it's not what they say that's important, it's what they do not say that is important.

Roger Hassenforder

The_Valeyard wrote: »

This is true, from looking at references in the past, it's not what they that's important, it's what they do not say that is important.

"He didn't cover himself in glory" and he "hardly distinguished himself" tell a lot about a man!

steddyeddy

One eyed Jack wrote: »

My view on nepotism is that if it means a person is aware of someone they deem suitable for a position they know is available, then I wouldn't have an issue with them recommending that person for the available position. There's no "right" or "wrong" about it, it is what it is.

If you appoint a family member in position without interviewing others and even while interview others then people might be unhappy with that. Can you see why? I'll give you a few points:

• That person is clearly biased towards their family member
• That person is using taxpayers money to give their relation a career head start
• By picking one person they know based on a set of perceived talents and not interviewing others the chance of them picking the best person for the job is slim.

You kinda made a balls of the copy and paste job there -

Irrelevant to the point being made.

Source: HSE hiring policy to change after nepotism claims

Bold emphasis my own. The worst thing they were guilty of there was a possible breach of data protection codes of practice which holds that they shouldn't be keeping CV's on file, and they should discard of CV's after a position has been filled.

About ten managers gave their sons jobs and that's the worst thing. Like some of your other posts I'm filing this as "disagree for the sake of it".

Here's another recent article from 2014 -

Source: HSE accepts that hiring staff internally without interview isn’t “desirable”

But you had no problem with nepotism Jack?

Here's a report on HSE hiring practices from 2013 -

Report on Pre-Appointment Screening Procedures employed by the National Recruitment Service for the Health Service Executive (HSE)

Still not being followed unfortunately.

And a snippet from the Conclusions -

nd this is the code of practice they're referring to -

CODE OF PRACTICE APPOINTMENT TO POSITIONS IN THE CIVIL SERVICE AND PUBLIC SERVICE

Sorry what's your point?

Now, if someone can actually cut through that mind-numbing level of red tape (HSE Recruitment and Selection Procedures General) for someone, I would say fair play to them, rather than scream nepotism or whatever.

I think we can agree to disagree Jack. I don;t agree with nepotism and misuse of ones position.

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

While nepotism is wrong it dose not nesserley follow that just because they are related to someone in their work place it was nepotism they could have been the best person.

Years ago I know someone who got a job very legitimately it turned out when she started work in the place her husbands cousin worked there she didn't know this before hand and as the job was sought after she began to here gossip that it was nepotism that got her the job she was so upset and it really affected her negatively.

No it doesn't mean they'll be bad. It certainly means that by giving the job to ones family member without interview you reduce the chances of getting the best employee hugely.