3,000-year-old road being destroyed

robp

Del.Monte wrote: »

So can a pile of old railway sleepers. So come on pull the other one - why do you think Corlea is such a failure some 20 years after it opened? Academics love 'ancient' history as they can expound their views as facts and nobody can haul them up for being factual incorrect. Ancient, so called 'history' especially in Ireland is the preserve of an elite such as Prof.Raftery of UCC and the former Director of the National Museum, Pat Wallace, and their legacy is the total ignoring of more recent history, the hay shed at Howth, the scrapyard at Dromod, Co.Leitrim, the closed down heritage railway at Blennerville, Co.Kerry, the tumbled down Natural History Museum etc. Some legacy.

That is crazy. Look on trip advisor. Most people who have visited and reviewed leave positive reviews. It is in a very remote part of Ireland and it is utterly off the tourist trail. So its easy to see why it is poorly visited. One good thing about its location is that it is right by the potential national wetland park that is likely to be created once peat extraction is complete but that is years way.

Barry Raftery was a Professor of Celtic Archaeology. Why would he work on recent industrial heritage? We have academics who work in that area like Colin Rynne.

Qualitymark

I don't know that recent history is ignored - look at the National Library's constant exhibition on 20th-century subjects; MOMA's exhibits on artists such as Eileen Grey and Frieda Kahlo, the flat in Iveagh Buildings preserved from the 1980s, the Little Museum of Dublin, the rock-and-roll museum, the annual tours of houses ranging from the 17th century to new concrete-and-glass massifs, etc.

Del.Monte

I have looked at Trip Advisor and admit to being staggered by the reviews but it's not my experience or that of others that I know. As I stated previously, Corlea was the wet dream of some well connected academics and the Great Leader (CJ) and you should get a cop of 'The Ring Dong Road' to get a proper handle on what went on. I know, I was there (nearby) and at a time when genuinely worthwhile projects could get no funding the Corlea project had cash thrown at it.

Del.Monte

Qualitymark wrote: »

I don't know that recent history is ignored - look at the National Library's constant exhibition on 20th-century subjects; MOMA's exhibits on artists such as Eileen Grey and Frieda Kahlo, the flat in Iveagh Buildings preserved from the 1980s, the Little Museum of Dublin, the rock-and-roll museum, the annual tours of houses ranging from the 17th century to new concrete-and-glass massifs, etc.

Eileen Grey was an Anglo-Irish artist with tenous Irish connections who left Ireland at an early age an is claimed as Irish in much the same way as the Brits tabloid media claim Irish sports stars. the Little Museum of Dublin is a private venture..The Irish State and elite do little or nothing but pay lip service to preservation of anything.

Qualitymark

Eileen Grey was from Wexford; she grew up there and she remained in contact with Irish artists throughout her life.

Museum funding goes to many private exhibitions, as far as I know.

Del.Monte

Qualitymark wrote: »

Eileen Grey was from Wexford; she grew up there and she remained in contact with Irish artists throughout her life.

Museum funding goes to many private exhibitions, as far as I know.

Eileen Grey was born outside Enniscorthy but left Ireland to attend the Slade School of Art in London https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slade_School_of_Fine_Art and then moved to France. Her sexuality made her persona non grata in Ireland.

What is this museum funding of which you speak?

I attended - briefly - a Workshop run by the National Heritage Council on the 23/6/08 where the good and the great waxed lyrical about Transport Preservation. Pat Wallace addressed the meeting and announced that Ireland didn't need a transport museum. Meanwhile, seven years later the Heritage Council still haven't published the outcome of the meeting on their website. I could go on but what's the point as you obviously know better.

http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/museums-archive/events/archive/view-event/article/transport-collections-ireland-a-future-for-the-past/?

Sorry the link doesn't work so you have to go on to the site and search for Transport Collections etc. I'm not surprised as little else works in that self perpetuating, elitist body.

robp

I can think of two state funded museums that cover recent history.

In Cork the Cork Butter Museum.

In Waterford the Bishops place which covers from the Georgian period until the 1970s.

That been said there are many gaps in funding and many projects that really should be funded.

dubhthach

Perhaps a separate thread is required for discussion on heritage funding (and the lack of it -- looking at issue with Beite foundation), cause I don't really see relevance to topic of the damage been done to oldest discovered Tóchar in Ireland (for example when they dug the drainage ditch through it was there an archaeologist present?)

dubhthach

robp wrote: »

That is crazy. Look on trip advisor. Most people who have visited and reviewed leave positive reviews. It is in a very remote part of Ireland and it is utterly off the tourist trail. So its easy to see why it is poorly visited. One good thing about its location is that it is right by the potential national wetland park that is likely to be created once peat extraction is complete but that is years way.

Barry Raftery was a Professor of Celtic Archaeology. Why would he work on recent industrial heritage? We have academics who work in that area like Colin Rynne.

There's also the fact that like most heritage sites in this country there is no PR campaigns encouraging people to visit sites. The whole budget seems to be spent on seperating Yanks from their wallets.

For example it woudn't surprise me that other than a hazy rememberance of it from Junior cert history vast majority of Irish people wouldn't (a) have visited (b) know the location, of Clonmacnoise.

Even this new "Ireland's ancient east" trail, no doubt budget is 99% aimed at foreign tourists. Heaven forbid ye might tempt some Irish people to visit any of these sites.

Fuzzy Clam

I think they've being trying to close Corlea for years. I visited about 8/9 years ago and remember signing a petition to keep it open. Signposting to the place was very poor too.
I moved to within a few minutes of this bog in Coole and heard about the track being found shortly after but nothing more until now.

Arsemageddon

Prehistoric bog roads (toghers) are subdivided into three classes depending on the quality of their construction. The togher at Mayne appears to be a class 1 togher i.e. it is the most sophisticated type of construction and is very rare. In comparison class 2 and class 3 toghers are much more common.

Class 1 toghers required an enormous amount of labour to construct and their function is most commonly interpreted as being for ritual purposes rather than for carrying traffic. The frequent finds of bog bodies which bear the signs of having been subject to ritual sacrifice indicate that bogs and water were important to ritual practice in the late Bronze Age and Iron Age. Similar structures dating from the same era have been found in Britain and in northwest continental Europe indicating a common religious practice across the region at this time. Class 2 and 3 toghers are of much simpler construction and were usually built to allow people to walk from A to B across a bog i.e. their purpose is functional rather than ritual.

The level of preservation that wetland environments afford to organic material is quite frankly mindboggling. Archaeology isn't about getting pretty, shiny things to put on display in a museum, it's about gleaning information that can be interpreted to understand how people lived in the past.

Usually anything An Taisce have to say about archaeology is embarrassingly mistaken, but this time they are spot on. This site appears to be one of international importance and should have been preserved. A previous poster who stated that he was told by an archaeologist that we learn nothing new from such sites is talking complete rubbish. He either misunderstood what he was being told or was talking to someone who was incompetent, very inexperienced or just plain stupid.

Ireland's National Monument Acts (1930-2004) require that if an archaeological site is going to be adversely impacted by a development then the developer has to pay for the site to fully excavated. This is known as 'the polluter pays principle' and is a cornerstone of environmental law worldwide.

The Planning and Development Act 2000 gave Bord na Mona an exemption from having to carry out full excavation of site on their lands as the cost of excavation would be excessive. BNM archaeological mitigation policy allows for excavation of small portions of sites on their lands. Most of the sites found on BNM lands are class 2 or class 3 toghers, therefore this policy is reasonable for these type of sites. Class 1 toghers are a different thing altogether and should either be preserved or excavated to a much higher standard.

The site at Mayne appears to be on private land where peat is being harvested. The EIA for the development specifically mentions the road.
http://www.epa.ie/licences/lic_eDMS/090151b2804a345b.pdf (this is 15mb).

The summary report of the 2006 excavation is available here.
http://www.excavations.ie/report/2006/Westmeath/0016811/

Private developments do not enjoy the same exemption from full excavation that BNM do and the site is listed as a Recorded Monument (WM002-038 & WM002-039). I have no idea at all how the damage to this site was allowed to happen, it is disgraceful that it did.

Arsemageddon

Del.Monte wrote: »

Yep, they should build an OPW centre with talking heads, audio visual displays and waffle by academics stating fiction as fact..oh sorry, but they've already done that at Corlea.

The goal of excavating or preserving archaeological sites is not to build an interpretive centre. Excavation is about acquiring data that can used to interpret the past. When an archaeological site is destroyed it disappears for ever. It can not be replaced. Preservation allows sites to remain in place for study by future generations. Given the rate at which archaeological analysis excavation and analysis techniques are advancing this is the correct approach. The technologies that may be available in the future are beyond our ken.

Del.Monte wrote: »

So can a pile of old railway sleepers. So come on pull the other one - why do you think Corlea is such a failure some 20 years after it opened? Academics love 'ancient' history as they can expound their views as facts and nobody can haul them up for being factual incorrect. Ancient, so called 'history' especially in Ireland is the preserve of an elite such as Prof.Raftery of UCC and the former Director of the National Museum, Pat Wallace, and their legacy is the total ignoring of more recent history, the hay shed at Howth, the scrapyard at Dromod, Co.Leitrim, the closed down heritage railway at Blennerville, Co.Kerry, the tumbled down Natural History Museum etc. Some legacy.

Absolute waffle. Prehistory refers to the period for which there are no written records. Archaeology fills in the gaps in our knowledge of the past. Archaeological theories are based on data recovered from excavation, the interpretation of this data is subject to peer review, if a theory can't be backed up by evidence then it will not enjoy general acceptance. It is by no means the preservation of an elite, field archaeology is grossly underpaid and conditions of employment can be awful. People who engage in this work do so because they love it and are very dedicated, no more and no less. TBH that comment it is just ridiculous.

Del.Monte wrote: »

I have looked at Trip Advisor and admit to being staggered by the reviews but it's not my experience or that of others that I know. As I stated previously, Corlea was the wet dream of some well connected academics and the Great Leader (CJ) and you should get a cop of 'The Ring Dong Road' to get a proper handle on what went on. I know, I was there (nearby) and at a time when genuinely worthwhile projects could get no funding the Corlea project had cash thrown at it.

With the benefit of hindsight the Corlea centre wouldn't have been built. However, it is a large, purpose built facility and the costs of continuing to keep it open are very low. If it was closed the building would fall to rack and ruin. Better a living dog than a dead lion.

Del.Monte wrote: »

What is this museum funding of which you speak?

I attended - briefly - a Workshop run by the National Heritage Council on the 23/6/08 where the good and the great waxed lyrical about Transport Preservation. Pat Wallace addressed the meeting and announced that Ireland didn't need a transport museum. Meanwhile, seven years later the Heritage Council still haven't published the outcome of the meeting on their website. I could go on but what's the point as you obviously know better.

http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/museums-archive/events/archive/view-event/article/transport-collections-ireland-a-future-for-the-past/?

Sorry the link doesn't work so you have to go on to the site and search for Transport Collections etc. I'm not surprised as little else works in that self perpetuating, elitist body.

Breaking News Just in - Massive Recession hits Ireland seven years ago!

Funding for Ireland's heritage sector has been absolutely devastated during the recession. The National Museum and the Heritage Council have had their budgets slashed. Unemployment among archaeologists was running at about 95%. The National Monuments Service and the NRA also lost a lot of their staff.

There is still hardly any funding available for new heritage projects from central government and LEADER funding has been unavailable for almost 2 years. Pretty much every job advertised in the heritage sector in the last 5 years has been an internship which leads nowhere.

You want a National transport museum, fair enough. That doesn't mean you should be denigrating others aspects of Ireland's heritage.

Your comments about Barry Raftery are pretty low, he was both a brilliant scholar and as sound a fella you could ever hope to meet. His work in advancing wetland archaeology was pioneering and is highly respected around the world. He was in now way elitist and is very much missed by all who knew him.

eisen1968

I think that's the road outside my house. It looks about 3000 years old.

Del.Monte

I can't be bothered to answer all your points but 'breaking news just in' - there was never any funding for preservation of anything decades before the current recession. I'm not just talking about transport preservation and I don't know what Prof. Raftery being a nice man has to do with anything. And, the whole heritage funding scene is dominated by a clique of people in the Heritage Council. The likes of the late Lord Killanin ran the show like a personal fiefdom.

Arsemageddon

Del.Monte wrote: »

I can't be bothered to answer all your points but 'breaking news just in' - there was never any funding for preservation of anything decades before the current recession. I'm not just talking about transport preservation and I don't know what Prof. Raftery being a nice man has to do with anything. And, the whole heritage funding scene is dominated by a clique of people in the Heritage Council. The likes of the late Lord Killanin ran the show like a personal fiefdom.

I'm not surprised that you don't want to engage with the points I made, it's always best to never engage when embarking on a good rant.

There was never any funding for preservation? Apart from the National Museum, the National Gallery, OPW sites, various big houses, archaeological sites, heritage centres, county museums, etc, etc.

In your own area of personal interest there is also a reduced rate of tax for classic cars.

The reason I mentioned Barry Raftery was a nice fella was in response to you saying he was part of some shadowy archaeology illuminati and that all his work was gobbledegook. Basically, I was pointing out that you are talking through your arse.

VirginiaB

I'm an American, descendant of Famine-era immigrants who came to NYC in the 1840s and 50s. I visited Ireland for the first time after I finally uncovered the origins of many of my 16 great-great grandparents, who came from counties from Cork to Antrim.

When I planned the trip, both Kilmainham Gaol and the Corlea Trackway were on my list. Both were outstanding sites tho completely different of course. Kilmainham was one of the most powerful experiences I have had in my travel life. Corlea Trackway was way off the beaten track, no pun intended, but of the greatest interest and extremely well-interpreted. We went after spending most of the day at Strokestown and then driving to Birr, not far from one of my townlands of origin.

Speaking as a visitor and part of the diaspora, Ireland needs to do more to publicize such sites and perhaps most of all, make transportation available to visitors and the Irish themselves. And are schoolchildren taken to places such as Corlea Trackway to help them learn about their heritage? Hope so.

Del.Monte

This old thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65861251 is kind of related - from a time before the big exodus.

Qualitymark

I sympathise over the lack of a good transport museum (though there's little Irish-made transport to commemorate, I think), but don't such projects usually start with an individual with a passion and a spare barn (or a friend with a spare barn), and then get funding and backing when they prove successful? That's not far from what happened with Kilmainham.

jonniebgood1

VirginiaB wrote: »

I'm an American, descendant of Famine-era immigrants who came to NYC in the 1840s and 50s. I visited Ireland for the first time after I finally uncovered the origins of many of my 16 great-great grandparents, who came from counties from Cork to Antrim.

When I planned the trip, both Kilmainham Gaol and the Corlea Trackway were on my list. Both were outstanding sites tho completely different of course. Kilmainham was one of the most powerful experiences I have had in my travel life. Corlea Trackway was way off the beaten track, no pun intended, but of the greatest interest and extremely well-interpreted. We went after spending most of the day at Strokestown and then driving to Birr, not far from one of my townlands of origin.

Speaking as a visitor and part of the diaspora, Ireland needs to do more to publicize such sites and perhaps most of all, make transportation available to visitors and the Irish themselves. And are schoolchildren taken to places such as Corlea Trackway to help them learn about their heritage? Hope so.

Thanks for posting- This shows what I would have believed about the type of centre at Corlea. Whilst its not something everyone enjoys it is of course worthwhile from both a tourist and educational point of view. Its very easy for people to criticise these attractions if they aren't mainstream enough. There are many countries would love to have an attraction dating that far back. Notwithstanding that better publicity should be part of a centre like this.

tac foley

Take a look at Flag Fen, just along the road from us here, to see how such a site can be managed to the benefit of future generations.

tac

Ash.J.Williams

somuj wrote: »

I work in Born na mona. Roads like this are plentiful across the midlands. Found another one last year in Roscommon. A group of Archaeologists came out to investigate and found a few statues. That was it. They said we coud continue to work the bog its on. This road was way bigger than the one in the ops link. Was about 5 trees deep too and at least a km long.

They told us they afe everywhere and they cant learn anything new from them.

a "few statues"? from the bronze age?

tac foley

Votive offerings to the gods, usually 'killed' by breaking or bending' in the form of a sacrifice, are typical of the religious beliefs of the era. Actual bronze-age statues, particularly in NW Europe, are so passing rare as to be of immense value.

tac

whisky_galore

Qualitymark wrote: »

I sympathise over the lack of a good transport museum (though there's little Irish-made transport to commemorate, I think), but don't such projects usually start with an individual with a passion and a spare barn (or a friend with a spare barn), and then get funding and backing when they prove successful? That's not far from what happened with Kilmainham.

The problem with this is the people involved falling out and someone inevitably taking their ball home with them, as has happened time and time again. :rolleyes:

Things like industrial heritage are not even on the National Museum's radar or the nation's radar as a whole.

Qualitymark

whisky_galore wrote: »

The problem with this is the people involved falling out and someone inevitably taking their ball home with them, as has happened time and time again. :rolleyes:

Things like industrial heritage are not even on the National Museum's radar or the nation's radar as a whole.

To be brutal, Ireland doesn't yet have a lot of industrial heritage.

Is the computer museum still on the go in UCG/NUIG? Gave them a couple of things a few years ago.

whisky_galore

Qualitymark wrote: »

To be brutal, Ireland doesn't yet have a lot of industrial heritage.

Compared to the uk obviously not so much. But you'd be surprised what is assumed to be just a agricultural based nation turned out.

Del.Monte

Qualitymark wrote: »

To be brutal, Ireland doesn't yet have a lot of industrial heritage.

Is the computer museum still on the go in UCG/NUIG? Gave them a couple of things a few years ago.

Just because you keep on repeating this mantra doesn't make it true, but you should apply to join the elite at the Heritage Council as that's their view too.

http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/about-us/board/

dubhthach

Qualitymark wrote: »

To be brutal, Ireland doesn't yet have a lot of industrial heritage.

Is the computer museum still on the go in UCG/NUIG? Gave them a couple of things a few years ago.

That's a fairly silly statement. Ireland has plenty of industrial heritage from 18th and early 19th century. Let alone the fact that we have remains of tidal mills from the 7th century in both Strangford Lough (Down) and Cork. (some of oldest dated tidal mills in Europe).

In general though like most heritage in this country it's only deemed worthwile if it can turn a buck, one only has to look at dubious conversion projects to turn stuff like mills into apartments, or even permission been given for destruction of bits of industrial heritage from early 19th century etc.

Qualitymark

dubhthach wrote: »

That's a fairly silly statement. Ireland has plenty of industrial heritage from 18th and early 19th century. Let alone the fact that we have remains of tidal mills from the 7th century in both Strangford Lough (Down) and Cork. (some of oldest dated tidal mills in Europe).

In general though like most heritage in this country it's only deemed worthwile if it can turn a buck, one only has to look at dubious conversion projects to turn stuff like mills into apartments, or even permission been given for destruction of bits of industrial heritage from early 19th century etc.

Educate us! Where is there at least one museum or 'experience' where this can be seen? Give us the names of some of these tidal mills so we can at least go and look!

Arsemageddon

Del.Monte wrote: »

Just because you keep on repeating this mantra doesn't make it true, but you should apply to join the elite at the Heritage Council as that's their view too.

http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/about-us/board/

The Heritage Council have funded a large number of industrial heritage projects including conservation works on structures, industrial heritage surveys, training projects, conferences, etc. I know this because I've worked on a good few of these projects and have helped some community groups prepare their grant applications for free.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the heritage council have a massive budget and that they hog all of this money for their pet projects. In reality their budget is miniscule (about €4.5m) and about 80% is given away in grants. Their role is to provide grant aid to small projects throughout the country as this helps to disperse money evenly. They don't have the money to fund large projects and even if they had they would be unwilling to do so at would lead to accusations of bias. They do a lot with the resources they have and are in no way elitist.

Del.Monte

Arsemageddon wrote: »

The Heritage Council have funded a large number of industrial heritage projects including conservation works on structures, industrial heritage surveys, training projects, conferences, etc. I know this because I've worked on a good few of these projects and have helped some community groups prepare their grant applications for free.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the heritage council have a massive budget and that they hog all of this money for their pet projects. In reality their budget is miniscule (about €4.5m) and about 80% is given away in grants. Their role is to provide grant aid to small projects throughout the country as this helps to disperse money evenly. They don't have the money to fund large projects and even if they had they would be unwilling to do so at would lead to accusations of bias. They do a lot with the resources they have and are in no way elitist.

I not labouring under any ' misapprehension' about the Heritage Council having had dealings with them for many years. Back in 1996 Orla Hanly of that organisation promised me that the Heritage Council would have formulated a policy on Transport Preservation by 2000 - whatever that meant and, in any event, where is said policy. Do you have a copy of it? :rolleyes: