High Density - A complete rethink.

poker--addict

A post on another thread provided a link to news of foreign developers seeking to build apartments in Dublin. There is also another thread running about reducing the construction standards of apartments in Dublin. Media regularly mention other cities in the debate over standards and density however I am not convinced the Irish people, media or politicians truly grasp the importance of the debate and what can be learned.

It is interesting to watch more and more overseas developers take an interest in Ireland particular in relation to apartments. Many of us have had our views shaped (or tarnished) by the imagines of dark dull old Ballymun. However, I believe, Ireland needs a cultural shift towards higher density housing units. Doing it the right way is critical, in order to avoid ageing unsightly developments and all the related problems that go with it. Our governments and councils need to quickly gain experience and learn from other countries who have done it the right way - I feel the lack of a rethink is an opportunity going a miss.

Why high density? I live in London. I can foresee Dublin replicating London on a smaller scale. In a way it already does. London is extreme in that even "high earners" are unlikely to be able to afford a nice property in the city. Like London, Dublin is becoming a city of almost no high rise, various town lands becoming merged through street after street of 2 story semi or terraced housing.

Low density results in a city affordability problem, foreign money or developers arrive which only makes the problem for the local employees worse. The "choice" is to rent longterm or take on a commuting lifestyle. By commuting I mean 1 to 2 hours, often standing, on an expensive train, not getting any quality time with your family during the week and yet still having no disposable income at the months end (As density is so low, compared with demand, all commutable areas have an affordability problem).

In Dublin, communing counties like meath already start to see prices rise. It won't be long before the boom stories of those commuting from mullingar or cavan resurface. In a way we got away with the "outward" movement in the boom. Not all, but many sold their own properties in Dublin and were able to move out to improve their lifestyle and finances, it was a choice. Now, generation rent face being forced to move out just to get on the first step of the ladder.

I have been fortunate enough to spend time in Scandinavia and also certain Spanish cities where high density/apartments are done right. I have seen 10 story Scandinavian apartment blocks planned and designed correctly so the area remains bright and vibrant, underground car parks make space for ground level open parks, trees and playgrounds. Blocks are well spaced to enhance the feeling of low density and light is not an issue. My dream like many irish people is to own a home, but it is eye opening to see apartments done right. Apartments done right are appealing, they are homes. They are 1 million miles away from the 50sq metres pokey Dublin units made of cardboard and Londons endless streets of 2 story run down low density housing with space, parking and aesthetic issues.

At least 2 important positive outcomes and indeed serious benefits which can come from high density units done right. Financially and socially many of the benefits are interlinked.

1) Despite London having one of the best economies in Europe, and by far the best in the UK, the London poverty rate is high, seriously high amongst young people. The poverty line is in a large part down to the cost of accommodation. Low density and high demand breeds enormous inequality. The rich get richer...as people are forced to pay longterm high rent (high as a % of salary) to fund mega investors, developers, landlords and management firms. Ultimately the people and the government pay - poverty brings social consequences including crime and reduced education and financially the government must increased housing benefits and affordable housing, something like 25% of people require housing benefit and assistance with council tax. From a financial or affordability standpoint high density helps to relieve the enormous pressure on those working in the city.

2) Family life and lifestyle is something our western governments lost sight of as consumerism takes over, Scandinavians take it seriously. If avoidable, people should not be spending 3 hours a day in a car or train just to make ends meat. It is not physically or mentally healthy. If high density housing can provide a safe, modern, hi-tech home close to our place of work then we need to seriously consider providing much more of it. It affords everyone more time for focus on the family unit, education and upbringing of the their families, the next generation, which is not best served in a creche and childminders for 12 hours a day.

I accept London is an extreme and covers a much larger area, prices do fall at a more rational rate as you leave Dublin, but that is possibly down to a lack of train lines transport. However the fundamentals apply on a small scale in Dublin. It is a small city, there should be no problem where there is now a huge one. If not handled correctly we face anti-social problems around badly planned developments and the ultimate cost that goes with cleaning that up. We already have far too many housing developments which are far too big or were not built with facilities/schools/recreation areas etc.

Planning discussions around lowering apartment standards or the costs of building apartments need to be completely remapped. Affordable shoe boxes won't help us longterm. There is no point lowering the construction cost of apartments in order to build more 55sq metre boxes cheaper. We need almost double that as a minimum, somewhere to bring up families, somewhere with adequate facilities and open space. Of course there needs to be a wider appetite for change and trying to do something new. The cynics will say Dublin sprawling and booming outwards suits many of us in the short-term, politicians and decision makers are already on the property ladder. Any change will require a team with vision and a willingness to take responsibility for how we think and plan housing.

gaius c

Reverse the size restriction decision of a few weeks ago and instead remove the restriction on height. That way, we can have both bigger apartments and more of them.

poker--addict

Fully agree. Funnily, one can argue the sprawl of 2 story houses is better then cheaply built 45-55sq metre apartments. These ultimately bring problems. We need homes where people can start families. Homes with facilities, transport etc.

I fear for Dublin replicating London. Measures to cool the market such as 20% minimum deposits and reducing overall mortgage size in terms of salaries may serve to reduce cash flow. However, restricting cash flow alone, in a way, only creates opportunities for landlords and foreign investors - those already in a cash rich position - to clean up. Ultimately leaving those not yet on the ladder behind and creating this huge wealth gap we see in London. I myself find myself crunching numbers right now to examine the option of buying two or three properties in Dublin, instead of one in London.

In order to control prices and affordability supply of units must come closer to demand.
Those units need to be close to employment if we people to have reasonable lifestyle levels.

This is the kind of thing people should be marching about, not water charges.

lcwill

Also agree on the need to build upwards and for a cultural change in thinking about apartment life (and in designing apartments with families in mind).

I live in a one bed apartment and am currently looking to trade up to a 3 bed apartment as our little family is growing - mind you I live in another European country where apartment living is actually more desirable than houses and a 100sqm apartment is more valuable than a 100sqm house - perhaps also because houses are far from the city/town centre and people like to be able to walk to shops etc.

I expect the shift in Dublin will be led by other nationalities living there who come from cultures where dense apartment living is the norm.

Building nice 6-10 storey blocks dramatically increases population density with huge benefits in terms of the number of shops, restaurants, cinemas, and other amenities which can be supported with a small walkable area.

Where I live the blocks are 8-10 stories high and within a 10-15 minute walk there are as many swimming pools, schools, cinemas, supermarkets, restaurants etc. as there would be within a 30 minute drive of most people in Ireland.

robp

poker--addict wrote: »

However, restricting cash flow alone, in a way, only creates opportunities for landlords and foreign investors - those already in a cash rich position - to clean up. Ultimately leaving those not yet on the ladder behind and creating this huge wealth gap we see in London. I myself find myself crunching numbers right now to examine the option of

We clearly need these landlords and foreign investors to expand supply. They are part of the solution.

professore

<mod snip>

Brilliant analysis poker addict. Perfectly logical solution. Therefore has no hope of ever working here.

riclad

It would need a big rethink to have the planning permission for high density apartments
over 5 storeys ,
even though we need 30 thousands units built in dublin for people on low incomes and students .
in dublin the minimum build size is 80sq m versus 60sq m in germany , most european
countrys .
this helps the environment as it means people can live close to schools, shops etc reduces travel time.
rents are so high now it may stop companys like big company,s like intel investing in dublin.
WE need apartments for single people too,
not just for couples with 2 children.
Have x amount single 1 bed units per building,
maybe 60 per cent.
WE need some agency to look at the whole situation re how to get 30k units built.
where will we build, how high.does every unit really need a car parking space.
it cant be just left to market forces to solve the problem.
could vat be reduced on materials used to build social housing .

Eric Cartman

High density is the way to go , they should remove the height cap but introduce new restrictions .

1. Soundproofing - there should be a minimum soundproofing standard. You should be able to hold a rendition of riverdance on a wooden floor with the music at a standard pub level and nobody should be able to hear a single thing from another apartment.

2. Carparking / transport - If a carpark is provided all apartments should be allotted 1 space per bedroom and these spaces can never be sold separately from the apartment (they may however be leased to others by the occupier) If a carpark is not provided 2 routes of public transport should be accessible within 500 meters of the development (1 route = 1 bus route/ train route / luas route that has a service running 7 days a week , at least once every 2 hours until 10pm)

3. Size rules - minimum 65 sq meters for a 1 bedroom apartment with an additional 20sq meters of space for each additional bedroom. in addition to this there must be a storage room / box room (not to be used as a bedroom) with 4 sq meters of space per bedroom. Balconies , bay windows or other similar features are not to be counted towards floor area of the build.

4. Satellite dish access , telephone cables capable of VDSL (eFibre) and Cable capable of DOCSIS 3.0 broadband must be fitted (subject to service area for the last one)

lcwill

[/quote]
2. Carparking / transport - If a carpark is provided all apartments should be allotted 1 space per bedroom and these spaces can never be sold separately from the apartment (they may however be leased to others by the occupier) If a carpark is not provided 2 routes of public transport should be accessible within 500 meters of the development (1 route = 1 bus route/ train route / luas route that has a service running 7 days a week , at least once every 2 hours until 10pm)

3. Size rules - minimum 65 sq meters for a 1 bedroom apartment with an additional 20sq meters of space for each additional bedroom. in addition to this there must be a storage room / box room (not to be used as a bedroom) with 4 sq meters of space per bedroom. Balconies , bay windows or other similar features are not to be counted towards floor area of the build. [/quote]

65sqm is a big 1-bed and a car parking space per bedroom is a bit extreme given the rise of car sharing in cities. Better off saving some car parking spaces and giving each apartment a small lock-up in the basement for extra storage space.

The perceived wisdom that Dublin should be a flat city had more to do with ignorance from planners and rezoning profits from another sector.
Apartments in Ireland are not made for long term living. They are simply too small and too poorly constructed.
We need larger and higher apartment blocks located in areas with optimal transport links.

Nate--IRL--

riclad wrote: »

in dublin the minimum build size is 80sq m versus 60sq m in germany , most european
countrys .

Is it not 45sqm min in Dublin/Ireland?

Nate

Idbatterim

I am not sure I agree about the minimum sizes, everyone I know would love to live alone, yet we cant, rent on a 1 bed is insane, in decent areas at least. Why cant I choose to live alone in a 1 bed say 40sq meter? Its my decision, then whether to live there alone, or rent an older bigger 1 bed, share, live further out etc etc etc.

I totally agree about soundproofing etc, the apartment I live in now is so appalling I go to all lengths to avoid being in it, until I sort out alternative accommodation. Ads on daft are going up and being taken down in under 30 minutes as they are being inundated with enquiries and how many people do you actually need to see your run of the mill property?

The docklands has 5/6 storey rubbish, you could double the height and it would still be nowhere near high rise and simply allowing even a 33-50% height increase, would negate the need for any "towers" if they city council are that against them...

If the council relaxed the standards, I see it as part of the solution. Place like Sandyford business park, the industrial estate near the new broombridge luas, allow masses of studios, 1 beds and even family apartments, in 8-10 storey blocks. When you have good transport links, you dont have to live exactly on top of where you work etc, because commuting is feasible and practical.

Sorting out Dublin's crap transport infrastructure is a massive step in addressing the issues.

We hear about the lack of family homes etc, give students and single people an option to have their own place and most will jump at it, freeing up suburban family homes, i.e. the holy grail of the Irish...

3. Size rules - minimum 65 sq meters for a 1 bedroom apartment with an additional 20sq meters of space for each additional bedroom. in addition to this there must be a storage room / box room (not to be used as a bedroom) with 4 sq meters of space per bedroom. Balconies , bay windows or other similar features are not to be counted towards floor area of the build.

[/QUOTE] how much are these going to cost? 65 square meter is a damn large area IMO.

There are many people in Dublin who dont spend a lot of time in their apartment or home etc, young professionals etc. I think there should be a large mix of options in blocks...

We remember where ridiculous housing costs, rents, losing competitiveness, brought us to the last time and how it will effect us for decades to come with the bank guarantee economic collapse etc. I would actually have DCC and the councils as largely culpable for the extent of the bust! Developers were paying astronomic amounts and could only construct low rise blocks, who picks up the cost of the outrageous land price?

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

Sorting out Dublin's crap transport infrastructure is a massive step in addressing the issues.

One of the reasons the infrastructure is crap is because the city is low density. To transport the same number of people requires more lines, more stops, more stations and more cost in Dublin than in an equivalent higher density city.

Idbatterim

One of the reasons the infrastructure is crap is because the city is low density. To transport the same number of people requires more lines, more stops, more stations and more cost in Dublin than in an equivalent higher density city.

it is one of the reasons. you sort out the infrastructure though and it will allow for higher densities on that line, out along the line on greenfield sites, redevelopment of existing buildings will happen sooner as it will be more viable etc... There is already a docklands building being torn down and redeveloped and it is less than 15 years old AFAIK...

newacc2015

Eric Cartman wrote: »

2. Carparking / transport - If a carpark is provided all apartments should be allotted 1 space per bedroom and these spaces can never be sold separately from the apartment (they may however be leased to others by the occupier) If a carpark is not provided 2 routes of public transport should be accessible within 500 meters of the development (1 route = 1 bus route/ train route / luas route that has a service running 7 days a week , at least once every 2 hours until 10pm)

3. Size rules - minimum 65 sq meters for a 1 bedroom apartment with an additional 20sq meters of space for each additional bedroom. in addition to this there must be a storage room / box room (not to be used as a bedroom) with 4 sq meters of space per bedroom. Balconies , bay windows or other similar features are not to be counted towards floor area of the build.

4. Satellite dish access , telephone cables capable of VDSL (eFibre) and Cable capable of DOCSIS 3.0 broadband must be fitted (subject to service area for the last one)

2. I totally disagree with Car parking. Why should an apartment in the City center need a space? You can barely drive around Dublin City with the congestion. Giving tens of thousands of people living in the city, an incentive to own a car will worsen it. There is plenty of small developments without car parks in Dublin City, as they just arent needed. There is no reason to own a car living within the 2 canals of Dublin.

3. Irish Apartment generally have massive halls/bathrooms. But tiny bedrooms. There is no point having massive apartments, if the space isnt liveable. A good, well planned studio apartment. Beats most Irish one 1 bedroom apartments

4. Most developments have communal dish access anyway. Cat5 is the norm in most modern apartments.

Gas fired central heating should be a requirement. I dont know why Electricity is still being used, since its expensive and inefficient.

Fkall

newacc2015 wrote: »

Gas fired central heating should be a requirement. I dont know why Electricity is still being used, since its expensive and inefficient.

gas central heating increases build cost by a couple of €,k per unit as against a couple of electric storage heater.

Additionally gas boilers need to be serviced every year and this cost is added to the service charge as the management company is responsible for ensuring each boiler is serviced.

markpb

Fkall wrote: »

Additionally gas boilers need to be serviced every year and this cost is added to the service charge as the management company is responsible for ensuring each boiler is serviced.

That's hardly true. Why would a boiler inside an apartment be the responsibility of the OMC?

newacc2015

Fkall wrote: »

gas central heating increases build cost by a couple of €,k per unit as against a couple of electric storage heater.

Additionally gas boilers need to be serviced every year and this cost is added to the service charge as the management company is responsible for ensuring each boiler is serviced.

They are cheaper to run though. In Germany, there is often a master boiler in the basement and apartment have a hot water meter on their radiators/entrance to the apartment. My friend lived in Prague and even the apartments there had gas heating.

eeguy

One thing I would support would be large gated apartment blocks catering exclusively to the elderly.

Not assisted living, but incentivised, secure accommodation to encourage the elderly to move out of their large empty family homes.

Emme

eeguy wrote: »

One thing I would support would be large gated apartment blocks catering exclusively to the elderly.

Not assisted living, but incentivised, secure accommodation to encourage the elderly to move out of their large empty family homes.

That sounds a bit like an elderly ghetto. Gated to keep them in and stop them wandering when the Alzheimers gets bad.

Idbatterim

electric may make sense in new well insulated apartments, no yearly servicing, way cheaper initial cost than gas, there will never be leaks and no Bord Gais standing charge etc. If the gas heats the water I see a point in it, if it doesnt electric in a one bed is fine in my opinion, it has a few advantages over gas...

usernamegoes

I try to avoid storage heating though. I really hate it, having to pay for heating all day when I am not home, then guess if I will be cold tomorrow not being able to turn it off if it gets too warm. Not being able to time it etc. Horrible system.

Mrs OBumble

usernamegoes wrote: »

I try to avoid storage heating though. I really hate it, having to pay for heating all day when I am not home, then guess if I will be cold tomorrow not being able to turn it off if it gets too warm. Not being able to time it etc. Horrible system.

I couldn't disagree more strongly. Turn the output down when you're not home, and up when you are.

Cast half an eye on the weather forecast each night, so to know whether to turn the input up or down for tomorrow. There's a fan heater (far more expensive, but useful if I get it wrong).

Too hot? Turn the output down. That doesn't work, open a window.

Simple. Safe. Unobtrusive. Doesn't need annual servicing.

Daith

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more strongly. Turn the output down when you're not home, and up when you are.

Cast half an eye on the weather forecast each night, so to know whether to turn the input up or down for tomorrow. There's a fan heater (far more expensive, but useful if I get it wrong).

Too hot? Turn the output down. That doesn't work, open a window.

Simple. Safe. Unobtrusive. Doesn't need annual servicing.

Not really.

Gas/electric. Too cold? Turn on heating. Too warm. Turn off heating. Time it exactly for when you want .

I tend to avoid storage heaters like the plague too and tend to be in apartments were quality isn't applicable.

BehindTheScenes

Idbatterim wrote: »

it is one of the reasons. you sort out the infrastructure though and it will allow for higher densities on that line, out along the line on greenfield sites, redevelopment of existing buildings will happen sooner as it will be more viable etc... There is already a docklands building being torn down and redeveloped and it is less than 15 years old AFAIK...

Where's that block? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Idbatterim

the exchange building on mayor street... take a look at the first post at the bottom link...

http://www.herald.ie/news/builder-wants-to-tear-down-40m-ifsc-office-block-28013185.html

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=515490&page=85

the building has already been demolished, good riddance to it, absolute rubbish! We have been served up unsustainable, architecturally appalling stuff for decades now! Appalling governance and planning. When the available vacant land in the docklands dries up and pretty much the vast majority of sites now have planning permission and are about to proceed or are in the planning process, things are going to get interesting!

I can see lots of the commercial buildings being torn down and redeveloped. Nothing in those areas in general should be below 9-10 floors IMO...

H3llR4iser

newacc2015 wrote: »

2. I totally disagree with Car parking. Why should an apartment in the City center need a space? You can barely drive around Dublin City with the congestion. Giving tens of thousands of people living in the city, an incentive to own a car will worsen it. There is plenty of small developments without car parks in Dublin City, as they just arent needed. There is no reason to own a car living within the 2 canals of Dublin.

Owning a car and using it daily are very different matters. Give people a parking space AND a proper, rail-based transportation network, and they will use the latter as it's simply faster.

Instead public transport in Ireland means buses, which are slow, inefficient, unreliable and wildly uncomfortable. Being stuck in traffic on a packed bus is not something most people look forward to experience daily.

The reality is that anywhere you live in Ireland, a car is a requirement if you ever wish to get out of the 10 square kilometers around your apartment/house.

newacc2015 wrote: »

3. Irish Apartment generally have massive halls/bathrooms. But tiny bedrooms. There is no point having massive apartments, if the space isnt liveable. A good, well planned studio apartment. Beats most Irish one 1 bedroom apartments

Exactly - I speak as a foreigner, and one of the things that most people notice first here is how absurdly small and/or badly divided residential properties are. I've seen big houses with two or three "sitting rooms", huge bathrooms and three bedrooms that would barely fit a double bed.

newacc2015 wrote: »

4. Most developments have communal dish access anyway. Cat5 is the norm in most modern apartments.

Gas fired central heating should be a requirement. I dont know why Electricity is still being used, since its expensive and inefficient.

My landlord tried to connect to the gas network running 25 meters away from the apartment, under the road. He (and a few other landlords in the same complex) had everything arranged with Bord Gais, but the complex's insurance company blocked them, as "gas is dangerous!" in their mind. Sheer ignorance. In the meantime, in the block everybody is stuck in 1964 with immersion heaters, electric showers and storage heaters. In a complex build less than 15 years ago, and otherwise very nice (large bedrooms, can you believe that?).

Mrs OBumble

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The reality is that anywhere you live in Ireland, a car is a requirement if you ever wish to get out of the 10 square kilometers around your apartment/house.

Ahh, no.

I live in the city centre. And I'm a foreigner, so when I priced insurance here it was massive. Putting that together with the cost of parking and plus maintenance put me off car-ownership pretty quickly.

But I've traveled the length and breadth of the country - in rental cars. Once rented through a broker, this has been far cheaper than car-ownership would be. Yes, it's necessary to have a temporary parking space for them for a few hours while I get my gear together - but I don't need it all the time. Yes, it means I have to plan things in advance, but that's a small price to pay, and means I appreciate my travels more.

Closer to home, once a month I attend a music event that's about 17km from my home. The bus out there costs E5. Usually I get a lift home with a friend, but on the odd occasion that doesn't happen, a taxi costs about E30.

All it takes is right attitude.

H3llR4iser

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahh, no.

I live in the city centre. And I'm a foreigner, so when I priced insurance here it was massive. Putting that together with the cost of parking and plus maintenance put me off car-ownership pretty quickly.

But I've traveled the length and breadth of the country - in rental cars. Once rented through a broker, this has been far cheaper than car-ownership would be. Yes, it's necessary to have a temporary parking space for them for a few hours while I get my gear together - but I don't need it all the time. Yes, it means I have to plan things in advance, but that's a small price to pay, and means I appreciate my travels more.

Closer to home, once a month I attend a music event that's about 17km from my home. The bus out there costs E5. Usually I get a lift home with a friend, but on the odd occasion that doesn't happen, a taxi costs about E30.

All it takes is right attitude.

You sound exactly like me, before I got a car; I was simply not realizing how limited my options were when doing just about anything

As long as you are working in the city centre and living nearby, you are gonna be fine. You'll walk to work and the supermarket, use the coaches or what little rail network there is to go to other cities, and the occasional cab. You'll be missing some of what your city has to offer, as you have no way of really getting around bar for the few areas served by buses (many if not most in Dublin, feck all in Cork), but you just won't know it.

However, unless you live in a city with a very advanced public transport network (and here, not one has it - not even Dublin), if you want to change jobs you'll have to constantly consider "how am I gonna get there?", especially with many companies being in industrial complexes outside of the cities. When moving apartments, your choice will be limited based on where you work - and depending on location it could be a bad area, bad/old/poorly maintained properties or just too expensive.

Lux23

I would love to live in high rise building, I somehow imagine that they wouldn't be as noisy as the little boxes we have here. And much warmer.

Idbatterim

If not every apartment block has 1 space or whatever, per apartment, you would know that before buying it. you might not have a car, or you might and could rent a space from another apartment who dont, or park it somewhere else.

Its not as if you wouldnt know going in before hand, whether you had one or not...