Toilet

Ken.

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this so mods please move if its not.

My daughter went back to school today(6th year). They have a new principal who has outlawed going to the toilet during class. One girl in her class today started her period and spent 30 mins begging to be let to the toilet.

Is their any laws or rules around this. Anything I've found online is very general and aimed mostly at primary schools.

I'm not the most subtle in situations like this and if the same thing does happen down the line their will be a murder. I'm looking to pre empt a trip to mountjoy by going in Monday with a print out showing how she is in the wrong.

James Bond Junior

ken wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this so mods please move if its not.

My daughter went back to school today(6th year). They have a new principal who has outlawed going to the toilet during class. One girl in her class today started her period and spent 30 mins begging to be let to the toilet.

Is their any laws or rules around this. Anything I've found online is very general and aimed mostly at primary schools.

I'm not the most subtle in situations like this and if the same thing does happen down the line their will be a murder. I'm looking to pre empt a trip to mountjoy by going in Monday with a print out showing how she is in the wrong.

Cop on to yourself, you're the reason teachers and principals insist on appointments if you wish to speak to them. A sixth year student is an adult and should be able to regulate their toilet use. You should be glad that the new management is cutting out unnecessary time wasting, especially at your daughters leaving cert year.

There is ample time at breaks to use the toilet and in secondary schools they change rooms every 40 to 50 minutes. If one can't hold it then there most be something wrong. Remember when it comes to your children and what happens in school you often only get half the story.

A_Sober_Paddy

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Cop on to yourself, you're the reason teachers and principals insist on appointments if you wish to speak to them. A sixth year student is an adult and should be able to regulate their toilet use. You should be glad that the new management is cutting out unnecessary time wasting, especially at your daughters leaving cert year.

There is ample time at breaks to use the toilet and in secondary schools they change rooms every 40 to 50 minutes. If one can't hold it then there most be something wrong. Remember when it comes to your children and what happens in school you often only get half the story.

Well i'm just assuming here as i'm a man, you can't just hold your period...

Also there is a number of issues in relation to holding a bowel movement(piles and tears) and holding a pi$$ in can weaken the sphincter and can lead to pi$$ing yourself later in live...

the dark phantom

That girl and her parents should speak to a good solicitor and office of the ombudsman for children.

www.oco.ie#sthash.Y7X4DckO.dpuf

No need for that type of extreme carry on by a teacher to refuse a student use of the bathroom.

Diamond Doll

Classes are only, what, 35 minutes long? 5 minutes spent on a toilet break is a decent enough chunk of the class missed. Plus there's disruption to the rest of the class with students coming and going all through the class. No reason anyone can't go at the breaks in between classes, even if they have their period.

If your daughter has some sort of a medical issue that means she can't regulate her bathroom use, ask your GP for a letter to allow her leave during class, and I doubt there would be any problem with this.

A_Sober_Paddy

This little piggy wrote: »

Classes are only, what, 35 minutes long? 5 minutes spent on a toilet break is a decent enough chunk of the class missed. Plus there's disruption to the rest of the class with students coming and going all through the class. No reason anyone can't go at the breaks in between classes, even if they have their period.

If your daughter has some sort of a medical issue that means she can't regulate her bathroom use, ask your GP for a letter to allow her leave during class, and I doubt there would be any problem with this.

If its a case of it happening all the time, week in week out then i'd understand a clamp down...but on the first day...

Also when i was in School, if you were caught going bathroom between classes you were in trouble, you had to ask your teacher during class

Ken.

Sometimes you get caught short, we've all been there. When you gotta go you gotta go. As to her being an adult, She's just gone 16 and what about the 12-13 year old's just starting out.

Cedrus

That is outrageous!

I can't help with anything specific to secondary schools, but I would immediately want to see their Health and Safety Plan. How are they planning to deal with students who have medical needs, do they have first aiders and relevant facilities to look after diabetics, toxic shock syndrome, etc.

I can see that some students may intentionally disrupt classes with toilet demands, but it should be left to the teachers discretion how to manage that foolery. It sounds to me that the new principal is trying to stamp their authority but is no good at joined up thinking.

A total ban is demeaning, self defeating and dangerous.
I would be drafting a letter to Jan O'Sullivan as Minister for Education, all local TDs, the schools board of directors, the schools sponsor and all of the local doctors.

If your daughter was working or in prison and was told this, she could take a case to the labour court or the European court of human rights.

I don't even have kids and i am mad about this.

whupdedo

James Bond Junior wrote: »

. A sixth year student is an adult and should be able to regulate their toilet use.

So a student who is and should be regarded as an adult in your eyes , should be treated like a child and told to go to the toilet only when teacher says so , your post is an oxymoron and your over reacting a little bit . If a teacher can't tell the difference between the pupils that are taking advantage and the genuine cases then they need to open their eyes.

Their is absolutely no excuse for stopping someone from going to the toilet when the need is strong enough , the principal is entirely in the wrong

Hollister11

I finished school just over a year ago. We had to ask to go to the toilet, and most teachers said yes. If teachers said no, and you were dying, we just got up and went.

We were 17/18 and being told if we could go to the toilet or not. Fup that.

moc moc a moc

ken wrote: »

Is their any laws or rules around this.

You pay (and therefore employ) these people, do you not? As their paying customer, tell your daughter that you set the rules and she can leave a class freely if she has a good reason.

James Bond Junior wrote: »

A sixth year student is an adult

A 17-year-old schoolchild most certainly is not an adult.

James Bond Junior wrote: »

If one can't hold it then there most be something wrong

Exactly the point of the thread. If a student insists on leaving the class to visit the toilet, a teacher should entertain the possibility that there is a very good reason for this request (e.g. period emergency).

This little piggy wrote: »

If your daughter has some sort of a medical issue that means she can't regulate her bathroom use, ask your GP for a letter to allow her leave during class

Somewhat difficult to go visit a GP for period issues in the middle of a school day, I would expect

seavill

Ok this is the most over the top thread I have ever read from start to finish.

Firstly OP, deal with the issue properly, not going in screaming the place down. Ring the school Monday and ask for an appointment to talk to the Principal. Calmly explain your point of view, after asking them for their reasoning for it. If you are incapable of keeping your cool, get your partner/parent, whoever to go instead of/with you.

The next couple of responses were as bad. You don't have to cop your self on OP, but you also don't have to go running to a solicitor or the Ombudsman. I don't understand why people jump to these stupid ideas immediately.
Why can't people just go in and talk and see where they gets you. If it gets you no where then have a look as to what is next.

You are right to get your facts straight before going in, however even if you get facts for God sake don't go in all aggressive throwing the facts in the face of the principal. You will only be as bad as them then. Don't be mellow-dramatic about things either.

One response is correct, the principal is most likely trying to lay down the law for the first while. I am a teacher and 75% of the time people ask to go to the toilet they don't need to, they are bored, or want to go off for a chat.

In our school students are "not allowed" go to the toilet either. In reality that is not as strict as it sounds. My general rule of thumb is if they ask me once I say no, if they ask the second time I let them go. The amount of times someone asks once and when told no, has no problem with it and doesn't ask again.

I wouldn't blame the class teacher, the principal most likely has them on strict instructions of what to do.

From the inside my advice is:
- get as much knowledge as you can on the issue (I'm not sure will you find anything written down I've never seen anything)
- if there is a medical issue a note from the doctor will solve that problem without any hassle from the school, it will be discretely told to the teachers and there won't be any problems.
- arrange an appointment with the principal
- be calm and explain why you are there, allow them to explain their reasoning behind the rule, and then ask them questions about if there is an emergency etc. (if you can't be calm DON'T GO IN, get someone else to do it for you, no teacher or principal has any problem meeting with any parent if you can actually have a conversation with them, if its someone who is irate why would you want to even entertain that)
- Don't use research as a stick to beat them with
- Explain that you feel a 100% rule is dangerous territory as it may lead to an accident in class (imagine the embarrassment), or medical complications.
- If you don't get anywhere with the principal approach your parents council
- If that doesn't work write a letter to the secretary of the Board of Management (the secretary will be the principal but addressing it to the secretary means that it has to be brought to the attention of the entire board)
- After all that then you can look into other avenues if you like, but I guarantee you won't have to

Most problems in schools have very simple solutions, the problem is most people don't use those simple solutions

seavill

moc moc a moc wrote: »

You pay (and therefore employ) these people, do you not? As their paying customer, tell your daughter that you set the rules and she can leave a class freely if she has a good reason.

OK ignore this, you do not employ "these people", your tax goes a million places, for all you know every penny you pay goes towards the roads and the Gardai, this argument will get you no where. You are not a paying customer. You cannot set the rules in a school in any way shape or form. You and your child agree to the code of conduct and rules of the school by attending.
If you don't like the rules you are free to take your child wherever else you want.
Please OP don't take this advice you will back yourself into a very dark corner where you won't win.

A 17-year-old schoolchild most certainly is not an adult.

Agreed



Exactly the point of the thread. If a student insists on leaving the class to visit the toilet, a teacher should entertain the possibility that there is a very good reason for this request (e.g. period emergency).

This is very true and 99% of the time this is what happens in fairness. I would not say to a child to walk out the door, but if it is a genuine emergency that can't wait, approach or call down the teacher, tell them you will have to leave even without permission. The student may initially land in some trouble but again 99% of time nothing will come of it once it is explained why you had to leave. Remember the teacher is under pressure from the principal, it's not necessarily their fault

Somewhat difficult to go visit a GP for period issues in the middle of a school day, I would expect

That is not what people were saying, the advice re the GP is that if there is a known medial issue a GP will write a letter to the school explaining the needs of the child. Not that the child leaves the class to go to the GP to get a letter that minute

km79

also something to think about.......why have principals started to take this approach......every school has always had this issue so why now the mode string handed approach?
The claim\blame culture
Child let out of class child gets hurt whilst unsupervised .....who will be blamed/sued?
Sad reflection on today's society really .
It's like primary schools having to stop kids running on the yards. Parents rightly complain but who was to blame for it having to be enforced in the first place ........if all parties should common sense in all these incidences then there would be no problems.
But that's not the world we live in anymore sadly

john.han

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Cop on to yourself, you're the reason teachers and principals insist on appointments if you wish to speak to them. A sixth year student is an adult and should be able to regulate their toilet use. You should be glad that the new management is cutting out unnecessary time wasting, especially at your daughters leaving cert year.

There is ample time at breaks to use the toilet and in secondary schools they change rooms every 40 to 50 minutes. If one can't hold it then there most be something wrong. Remember when it comes to your children and what happens in school you often only get half the story.

Exactly, they're old enough to know when they need to go to the toilet and should be allowed and trusted to do so. An outright ban is ill thought out, inconsiderate and is probably a good indicator that institutionalised narrow minded nonsense dominates the disciplinary mindset of the school. This is typical of those in charge behaving more like kids than the students

Ken.

seavill wrote: »

Ok this is the most over the top thread I have ever read from start to finish.

Firstly OP, deal with the issue properly, not going in screaming the place down. Ring the school Monday and ask for an appointment to talk to the Principal. Calmly explain your point of view, after asking them for their reasoning for it. If you are incapable of keeping your cool, get your partner/parent, whoever to go instead of/with you.

The next couple of responses were as bad. You don't have to cop your self on OP, but you also don't have to go running to a solicitor or the Ombudsman. I don't understand why people jump to these stupid ideas immediately.
Why can't people just go in and talk and see where they gets you. If it gets you no where then have a look as to what is next.

You are right to get your facts straight before going in, however even if you get facts for God sake don't go in all aggressive throwing the facts in the face of the principal. You will only be as bad as them then. Don't be mellow-dramatic about things either.

One response is correct, the principal is most likely trying to lay down the law for the first while. I am a teacher and 75% of the time people ask to go to the toilet they don't need to, they are bored, or want to go off for a chat.

In our school students are "not allowed" go to the toilet either. In reality that is not as strict as it sounds. My general rule of thumb is if they ask me once I say no, if they ask the second time I let them go. The amount of times someone asks once and when told no, has no problem with it and doesn't ask again.

I wouldn't blame the class teacher, the principal most likely has them on strict instructions of what to do.

From the inside my advice is:
- get as much knowledge as you can on the issue (I'm not sure will you find anything written down I've never seen anything)
- if there is a medical issue a note from the doctor will solve that problem without any hassle from the school, it will be discretely told to the teachers and there won't be any problems.
- arrange an appointment with the principal
- be calm and explain why you are there, allow them to explain their reasoning behind the rule, and then ask them questions about if there is an emergency etc. (if you can't be calm DON'T GO IN, get someone else to do it for you, no teacher or principal has any problem meeting with any parent if you can actually have a conversation with them, if its someone who is irate why would you want to even entertain that)
- Don't use research as a stick to beat them with
- Explain that you feel a 100% rule is dangerous territory as it may lead to an accident in class (imagine the embarrassment), or medical complications.
- If you don't get anywhere with the principal approach your parents council
- If that doesn't work write a letter to the secretary of the Board of Management (the secretary will be the principal but addressing it to the secretary means that it has to be brought to the attention of the entire board)
- After all that then you can look into other avenues if you like, but I guarantee you won't have to

Most problems in schools have very simple solutions, the problem is most people don't use those simple solutions

I didn't explain myself very well in the op. I will be very calm but if it came to an incident where my daughter near soiled herself then there'd be hell to play. I'll book an appointment first thing Monday morning. I've been talking to a few of the other parents on facebook and they are going to do the same thing.

gaiscioch

You pay (and therefore employ) these people, do you not? As their paying customer, tell your daughter that you set the rules and she can leave a class freely if she has a good reason.

This is the sort of "You show them bleedin' teachers, son!" parenting advice that gets the most messed-up kids in even more trouble (and, in my experience, the sort of parents who give it are usually trying to be best friends with their child in order to get back at their estranged partner. The war, played out in your classroom).

To state the depressingly obvious: classrooms cannot operate if students decide to come and go as they please.

spurious

Try being a teacher trying to get to the toilet because of an illness or condition.

zeffabelli

Not being able to use the toilet when you need to is just so so so wrong.

Sick cruel policy.

zeffabelli

gaiscioch wrote: »

This is the sort of "You show them bleedin' teachers, son!" parenting advice that gets the most messed-up kids in even more trouble (and, in my experience, the sort of parents who give it are usually trying to be best friends with their child in order to get back at their estranged partner. The war, played out in your classroom).

To state the depressingly obvious: classrooms cannot operate if students decide to come and go as they please.

Yes they can.

They can let kids use the bathroom.

They can let Muslim students out for day prayer.

They function just fine.

Ken.

gaiscioch wrote: »

This is the sort of "You show them bleedin' teachers, son!" parenting advice that gets the most messed-up kids in even more trouble (and, in my experience, the sort of parents who give it are usually trying to be best friends with their child in order to get back at their estranged partner. The war, played out in your classroom).

To state the depressingly obvious: classrooms cannot operate if students decide to come and go as they please.

Yeah, I won't be going with any of that advice. Not to brag but she has been best student 3 out of her 4 years so she is good in school and wouldn't do it even if I told her to anyway.

One of the parents knows the chairperson of the board of management who's child is in second year and the chairperson knows about this issue and will be having a word Monday.

spurious

Great, your friend on the Board can allocate the funds when a free for all policy results in daily vandalism and bullying. Not everybody's angel is an angel at school.

Do you think schools make these rules for a laugh?

Ken.

spurious wrote: »

Great, your friend on the Board can allocate the funds when a free for all policy results in daily vandalism and bullying. Not everybody's angel is an angel at school.

Do you think schools make these rules for a laugh?

Well in the 4 years of 'free for all' the toilets haven't been vandalised yet.

spurious

ken wrote: »

Well in the 4 years of 'free for all' the toilets haven't been vandalised yet.

Good for them. It must be a unique place. Perhaps the parents will be delighted with children unsupervised in corridors too.

The insurance companies will be thrilled.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

ken wrote: »

Yeah, I won't be going with any of that advice. Not to brag but she has been best student 3 out of her 4 years so she is good in school and wouldn't do it even if I told her to anyway.

Teachers pet? :rolleyes: :pac: :pac:

zeffabelli

spurious wrote: »

Good for them. It must be a unique place. Perhaps the parents will be delighted with children unsupervised in corridors too.

The insurance companies will be thrilled.

Well in sure everyone will be happy when there's blood all over the seats or the janitor to clean up the products of an upset stomach, coeliac, or Ibd, or Ibs.

Insurance companies will be thrilled with that unhygienic and public ally humiliating practise.

Get a new insurance company. I don't believe for a second this had anything to do with insurance. Pull the other one, it plays jingle bells.

RandomName2

ken wrote: »

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this so mods please move if its not.

My daughter went back to school today(6th year). They have a new principal who has outlawed going to the toilet during class. One girl in her class today started her period and spent 30 mins begging to be let to the toilet.

Is their any laws or rules around this. Anything I've found online is very general and aimed mostly at primary schools.

I'm not the most subtle in situations like this and if the same thing does happen down the line their will be a murder. I'm looking to pre empt a trip to mountjoy by going in Monday with a print out showing how she is in the wrong.

6th year or 6th class? Because 6th year implies being either virtually or literally an adult, with no legal requirement to still be in education. What sort of BS school would have hard-and-fast 'toilet rules' for 17/18 year olds?

RandomName2

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Cop on to yourself, you're the reason teachers and principals insist on appointments if you wish to speak to them. A sixth year student is an adult and should be able to regulate their toilet use. You should be glad that the new management is cutting out unnecessary time wasting, especially at your daughters leaving cert year.

There is ample time at breaks to use the toilet and in secondary schools they change rooms every 40 to 50 minutes. If one can't hold it then there most be something wrong. Remember when it comes to your children and what happens in school you often only get half the story.

Are you allowed to go to the lavatory at work?

If you are, do you think that it is wrong that it is allowed?

Sometimes I despair at the Irish psyche.:pac:

I hope you don't dare to knock on your supervisor's office door without an appointment either.

I didn't bother reading the other posts because they're very long and pretty much three pages of quoting post and telling them that they're wrong!
In my opinion it's ridiculous that they can't go to toilet!no one knows what's going on physically or emotionally with someone else! Why not just give them a time limit if they go! Ten minutes or detention!?

When I was in sixth year I needed to use the loo during class. I asked and my teacher said no. It got worse and worse until I was bursting. I asked several more times but she stood firm. I learned nothing in class that day because all I could think about was how desperately I needed the loo. As well as that I was mortified! Firstly I was pretty much begging asking that many times. How humiliating is that? Begging to go to the toilet? Secondly it was as if I was some kind of trouble maker, which I was not! Luckily we had break next because like someone else said, we weren't allowed go between classes.
I told my mum what happened. I was fairly upset about it. She was furious that I was denied such a basic need. She went straight to the teacher in question the next day and asked her what happened. The teacher said she didn't want kids constantly interrupting the class to go get up to god knows what in the toilets. My mum asked if I was constantly disrupting classes asking to go and the teacher said no. She asked if I'd ever been caught doing something unacceptable in the toilets, like smoking vandalism etc. The teacher said no. And that was that. My mam told me to ask once and then just go.
An outright ban is outrageous. You have every right to be annoyed OP. Like someone else said a teacher needs the to be able to tell when someone is genuine and someone is not. I think your doing the right thing by getting together with other parents to tackle this. An united front and all that.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

When I was in 5th year, a girl in my year had been setting fire alarms off for weeks during classes. Got to the stage where we weren't allowed leave when the smoke alarm went off, it was so regular. All well and good until one day the crazy bitch set fire to the stock cubicle. So, there's good reason not letting kids roam the corridors whenever they like.

God love your daughter if within the space of a few mins, (classes are 35 mins long) she has to go and can't wait, that's not going to work out very well for her in real life. As for periods, the girl couldn't go to the toilet before class? Your period doesn't hit you like a truck without warning and have you bleed out within 30 mins. And from going to an all girls school, "I have my period" was excuse for just about anything. Dodging pe, missing maths class and going to sick bay because you didn't do your homework, wanting to get out of class to go for a smoke.

Also, I'd be scarlet my father going into the school to argue with the principle when I was in 6th year.