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Classes were an hour in my school, was horrible sometimes tryna hold it in for 2 hours before there'd be a break.0
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Most of the posters here seem to have misunderstood what happened.
The girl started her period.
This is excruciatingly embarrassing for a young girl - or indeed for an adult woman. She needs to go immediately and use a tampon, otherwise she's going to have blood on her skirt or trousers.
Can you imagine the sniggering and pointing and name-calling that may happen when she becomes famous as the girl whose period bled all over her white skirt?
The teacher really should understand that there are exceptions.0 -
zeffabelli wrote: »You shouldn't have your phones on in class.
Teacher should make them surrender their phones.
You'd have parents whinging then about their children not being able to contact them or be reached in an emergency0 -
There's an element of "if you treat people like animals, they'll behave like animals"
(not that I think you should treat animals like that either, but it's a well known phrase.)
If you respect your students and treat them as real human beings with real lives, you'll get respect back in most cases and be treated similarly.
If you arrive in and behave like a big scary ogre who lays down arbitrary rules and meets our punishments for anyone who transgresses, well then you'll get resistance and people coming up with endless ways of getting around your control regime or prove they're rebels.
Having experiences of school in Ireland and a more progressive model on the continent, I think a lot of Irish schools have the culture way of the balance being tipped towards rules, discipline, no questioning authority and punishment.
You have to earn respect! You don't get it by top down imposition of power. That's how you become a figure to poke fun at and to try to "get around".
It's more than one individual teacher or principal, it's a whole culture of education that comes from a Victorian model that until the 1980s included beating people with sticks, straps, rulers, fists etc and has really only been barely two decades as a civilised system.
Britian is similar but Victorian systems are long, long past their best before date!0 -
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I didn't explain myself very well in the op. I will be very calm but if it came to an incident where my daughter near soiled herself then there'd be hell to play. I'll book an appointment first thing Monday morning. I've been talking to a few of the other parents on facebook and they are going to do the same thing.
Going down the road of forming a mob over this would not be the best way to go. Staff would probably close ranks and anyone involved could say goodbye to extra circular acitivies or free after school classes.
Be very careful how you approach the issue. Remain calm and level headed0 -
Qualitymark wrote: »Most of the posters here seem to have misunderstood what happened.
The girl started her period.
This is excruciatingly embarrassing for a young girl - or indeed for an adult woman. She needs to go immediately and use a tampon, otherwise she's going to have blood on her skirt or trousers.
Can you imagine the sniggering and pointing and name-calling that may happen when she becomes famous as the girl whose period bled all over her white skirt?
The teacher really should understand that there are exceptions.
So much wrong with your post.
Real life is not like Carrie.
Most of the time, us women don't even realise our periods have started until we've actually gone to the loo unrelatedly.
I've actually never once bled through to my skirt or trousers, and I have heavy periods.
If this was a possibility due to a medical condition, I would have of course gotten a doctors cert which would allow me to leave class as and when I needed. No school will argue with that.
Who wears a white skirt to school? Especially when their period is due.0 -
Regarding rules being in place. Gardai, nurses, shop keeper, vets/etc all use discretion.
Teachers should know when to use it!0 -
Quadrature wrote: »There's an element of "if you treat people like animals, they'll behave like animals"
(not that I think you should treat animals like that either, but it's a well known phrase.)
If you respect your students and treat them as real human beings with real lives, you'll get respect back in most cases and be treated similarly.
If you arrive in and behave like a big scary ogre who lays down arbitrary rules and meets our punishments for anyone who transgresses, well then you'll get resistance and people coming up with endless ways of getting around your control regime or prove they're rebels.
Having experiences of school in Ireland and a more progressive model on the continent, I think a lot of Irish schools have the culture way of the balance being tipped towards rules, discipline, no questioning authority and punishment.
You have to earn respect! You don't get it by top down imposition of power. That's how you become a figure to poke fun at and to try to "get around".
Teachers don't go through years of college education just to accede authority to children. I'm sure you're familiar with what the phrase "in loco parentis" actually means - teachers are by default in a position of authority, accountability, and responsibility.
That means they don't have to let one child or one group of children ruin their class for all the other children who are there to be educated in loco parentis.It's more than one individual teacher or principal, it's a whole culture of education that comes from a Victorian model that until the 1980s included beating people with sticks, straps, rulers, fists etc and has really only been barely two decades as a civilised system.
Britian is similar but Victorian systems are long, long past their best before date!
It's a wonder anyone was ever educated in this country with comparisons drawn to reform schools and education systems in other countries all the time like other countries have no issues in their education systems or wider societies.0 -
This little piggy wrote: »So much wrong with your post.
Real life is not like Carrie.
Most of the time, us women don't even realise our periods have started until we've actually gone to the loo unrelatedly.
I've actually never once bled through to my skirt or trousers, and I have heavy periods.
If this was a possibility due to a medical condition, I would have of course gotten a doctors cert which would allow me to leave class as and when I needed. No school will argue with that.
Who wears a white skirt to school? Especially when their period is due.
Plenty of women have started to bleed heavily by the time they realise they have their period, or know it'll happen soon because of certain pains they get. For some, it's a lot more than just a bit when they wipe, when it starts.
If they have a medical condition related to their period or bowel movements, why should they have to produce private information from their doctor to get permission to go to the toilet? Why should a child have to embarrass themselves like that? It should be a given for EVERYONE that if you need the loo, you go. Christ, our parents drilled it into us when potty training, to go to the bathroom when necessary.
As for not wearing white when due a period - many, many teenagers and indeed adult women, have irregular periods. I couldn't tell you when I'm due one, I've had one in the past 12 months.0 -
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One eyed Jack wrote: »Teachers don't go through years of college education just to accede authority to children. I'm sure you're familiar with what the phrase "in loco parentis" actually means - teachers are by default in a position of authority, accountability, and responsibility.
That means they don't have to let one child or one group of children ruin their class for all the other children who are there to be educated in loco parentis.
.
They still have to earn respect from people you are working with. You're not acceding authority to anyone by having a mutually respectful situation!
Being a good teacher is absolutely not about "I have 4 / 5 years in college!"
Parents have to earn respect. It's not a given either.
I've two postgrad degrees and I most certainly do not think that's what defines my ability to do my job.
A lot of life is about making the best of interpersonal relationships to achieve objectives!
Becoming someone who people can respect and relate to is 90% of that.0 -
This little piggy wrote: »So much wrong with your post.
Real life is not like Carrie.
Most of the time, us women don't even realise our periods have started until we've actually gone to the loo unrelatedly.
I've actually never once bled through to my skirt or trousers, and I have heavy periods.
If this was a possibility due to a medical condition, I would have of course gotten a doctors cert which would allow me to leave class as and when I needed. No school will argue with that.
Who wears a white skirt to school? Especially when their period is due.
I'm a *guy* and I know serveral people who have had periods and bled through clothes! It's not that unusual. It's just usually not discussed.
Many women are just lucky and have light, predictable periods, it doesn't mean everyone has.
That's why I would have total empathy for this situation and always make sure that an office scenario wasn't causing someone any problems around anything like that!!
Likewise, you've no idea if someone has IBS or various inflammatory bowel disorders that can cause really embarrassing situations whew they will just need a toilet.
Trying to exert control over someone else's ability to manage their own bodily functions is absolutely insane levels of control and is very humiliating for the person.
We're biological systems and they don't necessarily work according to an imposed schedule!0 -
Quadrature wrote: »They still have to earn respect from people you are working with. You're not acceding authority to anyone by having a mutually respectful situation!
If they were in equal positions, you could talk about mutual respect. I understand where you're coming from, but the adult is in a position of authority, and is held to a standard of responsibility and accountability that the children aren't held to, i.e. - there can be no such thing as mutual respect because the relationship isn't one of equals.Being a good teacher is absolutely not about "I have 4 / 5 years in college!"
I never said that?Parents have to earn respect. It's not a given either.
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one I'm afraid, could go very off-topic.I've two postgrad degrees and I most certainly do not think that's what defines my ability to do my job.
I never said anything about qualifications relating to a person's ability to do their job? I said that teachers don't go through years of college to then have to "earn respect" from children!A lot of life is about making the best of interpersonal relationships to achieve objectives!
Becoming someone who people can respect and relate to is 90% of that.
Absolutely agree with that, and it's something I try to instill in my own child and any children I work with, so that they are less likely to become adults who have no understanding of responsibility, accountability, and indeed authority. Interpersonal relationships don't cover some of the... quite frankly, some of the silliness that's been posted here. Nobody should be advised to go in all confrontational to anyone, and they shouldn't be advising their children to do the same IMO.
Work with the Principal and the teachers in the school IMO, rather than against them, if you want to teach a child the value and importance of good interpersonal relationships and good communication skills. That saves everyone the headaches.0 -
See: this is where I simply can't agree with you.
The ability to manage one's own bodily functions as needed is considered, in all other scenarios, (including prison), to be very fundamental to human rights and dignity.
By just accepting, what seems on the face of it to be a totally unjust situation, without any challenge is actually teaching children that they're powerless and that they should just accept arbitrary and possibly illegal demands from authority figure without critical analysis or challenge.
This is I think to a degree what has been largely wrong with Irish society and perhaps explains a lot of the problems we've had in terms of accepting absolute abuse of power by various institutions that were held in high esteem.
Most of us won't challenge certain authority when it needs to be challenged and have tended to be totally deferential to authority figures like priests, nuns, medics and teachers
There are far, far too many cases of institutionally abusive situations in this country and they are still going on.
I'm not saying that people should disrespect people in authority but "because I said so" isn't enough anymore. Threats of punishment to exert authority are also unnecessary in all but the most extreme circumstances.
There has to be some kind of refocus on gaining authority through respect, enshrining normal and standard human rights in *all* institutional contexts (including schools) and generally moving to a healthier culture around authority.
If there's a problem in schools with managing people roaming corridors, drugs or other risks, that should be dealt with in other ways, not by denying access to the toilet.
In workplace management theory the notion of a disciplinarian manager who makes threats all the time is gone out with the ark and considered to be totally retrograde and counterproductive.
I really think schools and teachers could learn a huge amount from modern management and organisational psychology.
Respect is about becoming a leader. It's not about fear.
Rules and regulations also work when they're understood and those subject them have some ownership of them and understand why they're there.
I just think soooo much more could be done with schools with better training of staff to become professional managers. You're not being taught the right skills as teachers.
Or, at least you could be given much better tools to work with that would make your class time a lot less confrontational and a lot more enjoyable!0 -
Quadrature wrote: »See: this is where I simply can't agree with you.
The ability to manage one's own bodily functions as needed is considered, in all other scenarios, (including prison), to be very fundamental to human rights and dignity.
By just accepting, what seems on the face of it to be a totally unjust situation, without any challenge is actually teaching children that they're powerless and that they should just accept arbitrary and possibly illegal demands from authority figure without critical analysis or challenge.
This is I think to a degree what has been largely wrong with Irish society and perhaps explains a lot of the problems we've had in terms of accepting absolute abuse of power by various institutions that were held in high esteem.
Most of us won't challenge certain authority when it needs to be challenged and have tended to be totally deferential to authority figures like priests, nuns, medics and teachers
There are far, far too many cases of institutionally abusive situations in this country and they are still going on.
I'm not saying that people should disrespect people in authority but "because I said so" isn't enough anymore. Threats of punishment to exert authority are also unnecessary in all but the most extreme circumstances.
There has to be some kind of refocus on gaining authority through respect, enshrining normal and standard human rights in *all* institutional contexts (including schools) and generally moving to a healthier culture around authority.
If there's a problem in schools with managing people roaming corridors, drugs or other risks, that should be dealt with in other ways, not by denying access to the toilet.
In workplace management theory the notion of a disciplinarian manager who makes threats all the time is gone out with the ark and considered to be totally retrograde and counterproductive.
I really think schools and teachers could learn a huge amount from modern management and organisational psychology.
Respect is about becoming a leader. It's not about fear.
Rules and regulations also work when they're understood and those subject them have some ownership of them and understand why they're there.
I just think soooo much more could be done with schools with better training of staff to become professional managers. You're not being taught the right skills as teachers.
Or, at least you could be given much better tools to work with that would make your class time a lot less confrontational and a lot more enjoyable!
A lot of your comments on teachers are quite disrespectful and seem to be purely based on your experiences what I presume were not in the last couple of years.
Generally teachers (anywhere I have taught) come up with the classroom rules with the students together however there are rules outside of this that the teachers have no control over like the phones toilet etc.
the teachers in this instance are doing what they are told by their manager so blaming them is wrong.
The "because I said so you refer to" may not be the case here so pushing that one is out of line. Teachers here have given numerous reasons why these rules exist. People don't particularly seem to accept those reasons on this thread but that doesn't alter the fact it is done for a reason not because "I said so" as you mention.
With the case of the op we don't know the reason the principal has enforced this rule as they have not bothered to ask they first came here to rant and get ammunition for their attacking of the principal.
One simple question could have saved 7 pages of tripe.
You say we are not being taught the right skills as teachers. Can you tell me what basis you have for this opinion. Do you have any knowledge of what teachers are taught in college? Or are you just completely making up that statement without any facts to back it up?
What people are taught and what they do are often completely different so saying teacher x y or z was like this so it means teachers are not taught properly is a silly argument.
Let's be honest we all know we are all taught to drive properly but as soon as we pass the test the majority of people disregard most of what they have learned. I am not saying that is the case for teachers but just making an example0 -
This little piggy wrote: »So much wrong with your post.
Real life is not like Carrie.
Most of the time, us women don't even realise our periods have started until we've actually gone to the loo unrelatedly.
I've actually never once bled through to my skirt or trousers, and I have heavy periods.
Different people have different experiences.0 -
A lot of your comments on teachers are quite disrespectful and seem to be purely based on your experiences what I presume were not in the last couple of years.
Generally teachers (anywhere I have taught) come up with the classroom rules with the students together however there are rules outside of this that the teachers have no control over like the phones toilet etc.
the teachers in this instance are doing what they are told by their manager so blaming them is wrong.
The "because I said so you refer to" may not be the case here so pushing that one is out of line. Teachers here have given numerous reasons why these rules exist. People don't particularly seem to accept those reasons on this thread but that doesn't alter the fact it is done for a reason not because "I said so" as you mention.
With the case of the op we don't know the reason the principal has enforced this rule as they have not bothered to ask they first came here to rant and get ammunition for their attacking of the principal.
One simple question could have saved 7 pages of tripe.
You say we are not being taught the right skills as teachers. Can you tell me what basis you have for this opinion. Do you have any knowledge of what teachers are taught in college? Or are you just completely making up that statement without any facts to back it up?
What people are taught and what they do are often completely different so saying teacher x y or z was like this so it means teachers are not taught properly is a silly argument.
Let's be honest we all know we are all taught to drive properly but as soon as we pass the test the majority of people disregard most of what they have learned. I am not saying that is the case for teachers but just making an example
Where have I been "disrespectful??!!???"
That is one hell of an accusation!
I am familiar with what teachers learn in university and you are absolutely not taught a wide range of management tools that are widely available to people in other contexts.
I also think principals should all have to complete a management postgrad to be considered for that position. I don't think that's at all unreasonable.0 -
Quadrature wrote: »See: this is where I simply can't agree with you.
The ability to manage one's own bodily functions as needed is considered, in all other scenarios, (including prison), to be very fundamental to human rights and dignity.
By just accepting, what seems on the face of it to be a totally unjust situation, without any challenge is actually teaching children that they're powerless and that they should just accept arbitrary and possibly illegal demands from authority figure without critical analysis or challenge.
This is I think to a degree what has been largely wrong with Irish society and perhaps explains a lot of the problems we've had in terms of accepting absolute abuse of power by various institutions that were held in high esteem.
Most of us won't challenge certain authority when it needs to be challenged and have tended to be totally deferential to authority figures like priests, nuns, medics and teachers
There are far, far too many cases of institutionally abusive situations in this country and they are still going on.
I'm not saying that people should disrespect people in authority but "because I said so" isn't enough anymore. Threats of punishment to exert authority are also unnecessary in all but the most extreme circumstances.
There has to be some kind of refocus on gaining authority through respect, enshrining normal and standard human rights in *all* institutional contexts (including schools) and generally moving to a healthier culture around authority.
If there's a problem in schools with managing people roaming corridors, drugs or other risks, that should be dealt with in other ways, not by denying access to the toilet.
In workplace management theory the notion of a disciplinarian manager who makes threats all the time is gone out with the ark and considered to be totally retrograde and counterproductive.
I really think schools and teachers could learn a huge amount from modern management and organisational psychology.
Respect is about becoming a leader. It's not about fear.
Rules and regulations also work when they're understood and those subject them have some ownership of them and understand why they're there.
I just think soooo much more could be done with schools with better training of staff to become professional managers. You're not being taught the right skills as teachers.
Or, at least you could be given much better tools to work with that would make your class time a lot less confrontational and a lot more enjoyable!
Don't answer any of my points what ever you do.
You have so many insinuations highlighted above, as well as telling us we are not being taught right, that we lead by fear and need to learn thats not the way to do it, that our classrooms are confrontations and are not enjoyable.
Now if you would care to respond to any of the points I put to you?
Edit as you added to your initial post.
We are not taught a range of management tools that relate to business no, as we are not trying to manage a business or clients, we are trying to teach kids. We are taught pedagogy, special needs, behavioural techniques etc.
Would you care to enlighten me on what aspects of what we are taught that "you are fimiliar with" that you don't agree with or are you just going to throw out that statement without any substance.
The vast majority of principals that I know that have been appointed in the last 5-10 years have all completed a management postgrad, it is generally the norm for any appointment nowadays0 -
Wow the anger!
Clearly teachers are immune from any kind of objective criticism! I've read through what is on the teacher training programmes and you are not getting very much exposure to organisational management or management psychology type subjects, yet you're expected to deal with those very issues as a huge part of what you do.
A principal or vice etc is managing a very large and highly complex public organisation and I think equipping them with better skills to do that is a very reasonable thing to do!
However, I give up! You're all perfect!
Ireland perfect.
How dare I critique it!0 -
I would just like to state that up to now I've had a brilliant relationship with all the teachers. They've been brilliant. Any problems and a meeting is no problem with them and the (old) principal would bend over backwards to help out in any situation. I'm sure this will all be sorted easily and as someone said earlier in the thread a kid will only give half the story and sure didn't we all think schools were glorified prisons when we were there.
I'd like to thank everyone for your help to date. I realise teaching is a pretty much thankless job most of the time and thanks to the folks here I'll be approaching it with a much calmer head than I would have.0 -
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Quadrature wrote: »Wow the anger!
Clearly teachers are immune from any kind of objective criticism!
I give up!
I edited above, how about you respond to my points rather than giving up, theres no anger there was just a challenge to the statements you threw out that have no substance but you are deflecting now rather than responding which says it all0 -
No, I actually give up!
I'm not being dragged into a fight.
I made some points based on my observations as a non teacher based on my relatives' relatively recent experiences and on my understanding (having read through) the teacher training programmes.
I made suggestions for improving those which were not "disrespectful" but made some suggestions for positive change and I was torn apart!
So forget it. I won't be responding or bothering to make any further contributions to this discussion!
I had no idea this was such a hornets nest of topic!0 -
I would just like to state that up to now I've had a brilliant relationship with all the teachers. They've been brilliant. Any problems and a meeting is no problem with them and the (old) principal would bend over backwards to help out in any situation. I'm sure this will all be sorted easily and as someone said earlier in the thread a kid will only give half the story and sure didn't we all think schools were glorified prisons when we were there.
I'd like to thank everyone for your help to date. I realise teaching is a pretty much thankless job most of the time and thanks to the folks here I'll be approaching it with a much calmer head than I would have.
Ok thanks OP, I'm closing this thread now for a while. I think it's one of those threads that will only progress once a talk with the principal happens.
I think any principal/teacher who enforces an absolute zero tolerance policy is cruel. So, best of luck, in my opinion when you gotta go you gotta go. If a student is taking liberties then it's incumbent on the staff to record all toilet breaks, similar to state exams we just jot down 'TB' and the time in their journal, this was after significant theft from locker rooms and bags left around for PE. It stopped when students realised it was being monitored, and then it allowed people to go to the toilet when they genuinely needed to. In saying all that I always reply with "is there any chance you can hold it to the end?" if the student says no then they are usually genuine.
Let us know in a week or two how you got on (change some identifying details etc). I'll open the thread again next week.
MOD0
This discussion has been closed.
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