Dog issues

kkcat70

Hello,

Dog problem.

Had a rescue dog for 13 years - Kelpie cross, lovely lad, but sadly died this year.
Got a rescue Collie cross last year, 2 years old now, but is an absolute nightmare - can't let him off the lead cos he does a runner.
Can't keep him loose in the garden as he will find a way out (not a small garden).
Won't come back when you do find him - just runs faster away.

We're at the end of our tether with him and it's looking like he's going back for re-homing.

Not nasty people, but something seems seriously wrong with this dog.

Any help would be grateful.

VonVix

I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with him exactly, some dogs see freedom as fun, even though they scare the hell out of us. Dogs do what they find rewarding, and if something rewards them they'll repeat the behaviour.

My question for you is what is his daily routine?
When you try to get him to come back to you, what do you do?

kkcat70

He's a foodie cos he's rescue, but won't come back for food.

Kneel on the ground used to get him back, but doesn't anymore.

Cows Go µ

I find running in the opposite direction works really well. If you run the dog will chase you nearly every time for two reasons, 1, chasing you is a really fun activity and 2, you could be running after something interesting and they have to know what. And then do a seriously over the top reward every time he comes back. He has to work out that coming to you is more fun than whatever he was doing

Also, not every rescue is food driven. We have one who isn't food or toy driven, made training him really hard as all he really wanted was love and attention and that really hard to use when trying to teach sit or stay

kkcat70

This doesn't work for him - loves the ball being thrown, but still legged it for 5 hours.
That is acceptable when you are on holiday - but....

DBB

Hi OP,
I had a long response written out to you, but managed to delete it... argh!
It's absolutely understandable that you're frustrated with your dog, but hopefully between us, we can help you.
First things first: it is absolutely, categorically vital that you stop him from being able to run away from you any more. This is going to mean sticking a nice, comfortable harness on him, and buying a good longline (great value in them on www.vetuk,co.uk this weekend only) of 10-20m in length, to attach to the back-ring of the harness.
He must not be allowed run free out on walks, nor in the garden. It's longline on harness only, or if you have one, a secure run in the garden.
Now, with that insurance policy in place, you've got to teach him a good, effective recall, and this can't be done by just tempting him with treats whilst out on walks... a good recall starts at home, in the quiet, low-distraction environment. Bringing an uninitiated dog out for a walk with a pocketful of treats just doesn't cut it, there's way too much going on for treats to be of any huge significance to him. You also say he likes a ball, so let's use that to your advantage too.
At home, I'm a big fan of the classically conditioned recall (nerdspeak... but bear with me!) Choose a recall cue, and stick with it, and whichever one you use, say it with an upward inflection, e.g. "here?"
Now, say the word. Regardless of what your dog does, stick a delish treat into his gob... cheese, ham, chicken, salami... whatever makes his boat float, and as long as it doesn't upset his tummy. Small pieces... pea sized. Now, repeat this sequence at least 3 times a day, a dozen times each session.
After a day or two, you should find that when you say "here?", your dog snaps his head up to look at you, and orients towards you to take delivery of his reward. After another day or two, and on condition you're getting a really strong response, start to up the ante a bit: wait until he's not facing you, or he's a few feet away from you. When he looks at you, tell him he's fantastic, and as he turns to come to you, get down on one knee, open your arms, and give him a rapturous welcome back... even if it's only a few feet he's moved to get to you, along with the treat.
Now, once he's got this sussed, start to build up the distance, and start to call him when you're out of sight around the house and garden. Again, down on one knee with welcoming voice, and deliver the treat... you can start to mix up the treats with giving him his favourite ball, throwing it a small distance for him to catch or grab.
Once you've got these basics up and running, bring the show on the road. Out on walks, with his longline attached to his harness (never use a longline attached to a collar... sudden stops are just too dangerous with this set-up), start practising exactly the same routine once he's settled into his walk... now, don't try it when there are dogs running past and all sorts of things going on... find yourself a quiet spot in a park for your first few outside-training-sessions. He has his long-line on, the worst he can do is get 20m away from you, but no further.... it is so, so important, whilst you're teaching him the recall, to stop him from rehearsing the very behaviour you're trying to stop. The early work you did at home, and continue to do at home and in the park, will have made the cue, and the treats, a lot more salient to him than just producing treats for an uninitiated dog. Also, if you haven't already, get him a squeaky ball (Kong Squeakair balls are the bizz... dogs who love a tennis ball become addicted to tennis balls that...gasp!... squeak too!) and use this solely as his recall reward.. he never gets it unless he responds to your recall cue, and the ball will come to completely replace the food treats.. as long as he loves it as much as you say he does!
It's probably inevitable that I'd say this, but it might do no harm to enlist the help of a good trainer, just for the one session, to help you with this, because seeing it all getting set up with an expert is really enlightening and useful, though hopefully (!) what I've said above will help.
Don't give up on him yet OP! You may just have discovered why he ended up in rescue in the first place... another thing to bear in mind is that running after a fleeing dog can reinforce his fleeing behaviour on a number of levels. Another reason why the longline is fantastic because it gives you that bit of confidence, it's like an umbilical cord!
This might all take a number of months to get established OP, but that longline, and a plan to work on, will help prevent any more "incident" and hopefully help you see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Good luck, and don't be afraid to ask for more help or clarification!

angeldaisy

Great post DBB,
OP we have a 16 mth collie cross girl here who was a rescue at 4 mths. boy is she hard work!

Like yours she would escape at any opportunity, jumping fences, digging holes under fence etc...

Firstly we made sure that she couldn't get through the fence - double fence now. Then we noticed that she would only jump over in one place, so we stood our football goals next to it. Thankfully that stopped it. Once she was spayed she escapes less. But she still manages it every once in a while. She's like houdini we don't know how!
What we do if she does escape, now we worked hard on her recall as well. But we made it sound like we were having a great time without her, lots of high pitched sounds and playing with the other dog, shaking dog treat tins and praising our other lady

9 times out of 10 this works. Might be worth a try as well. But please do work on the recall like DBB suggests, it's really worth the hard work.

Our collie cross lady is nothing like our old collie who passed last year, he was a real gent. Elly is nuts, hyper, a bit thick considering she's a collie. BUT she gives the best snuggles and is very loving and I'm really glad we persisted with her.

kkcat70

Many thanks for all the help with this guys.
I grew up with these type of dogs and that's why I wanted one. But, can't get this lad's way of thinking, but in fairness to him, one of the neighbours has similar problems with his and he's had him from a pup - he actually climbs the fences that he's put up to stop him running.

DBB

Is your dog neutered kkcat? It usually curtails escape behaviour, though it depends on what's motivating your dog to go in the first place.

kkcat70

Yes, got him done just after we got him. I think it was too late at that stage though because he was at least a year old then.

ShaShaBear

kkcat70 wrote: »

Yes, got him done just after we got him. I think it was too late at that stage though because he was at least a year old then.

We have a badly abused rescue collie pup who is just about 1.5 years old now. We got him neutered at 8 months and he is still a flight risk.

We had an 11 year old collie before him who was an absolute gentleman. Very dog-aggressive, but even on the few occasions that he managed to get loose, he would always come back when called. I guess I don't ever remember teaching him recall, but obviously he got it. Oldies in our house tend to leave us spoilt when it comes to new, unruly additions. You forget the amount of work you had to put in to get that stellar, elderly dog in the first place. My old collie, Shadow, used to hop a 5.5 foot gate to get out of my mum's garden and he would TERRORIZE any dog he happened upon. When my dad re-inforced the gate, Shadow learned to drop things like his toys against the front door. We would think someone was knocking and he would literally BARREL his way past. We didn't get Shadow neutered until he was 5 years old, and it did help some (because part of his escape plan was other dogs and bitches).

Opie is mental. And I mean mental. He is a serial digger, but can't escape our back garden because it has 10 foot double fencing surrounding it, with 2 feet of it underground. He used to make a dash for the front door if it was even open a crack, but now, after a YEAR of solid training, he will stay (very reluctantly) for a few minutes until the door is closed again. We never, ever let him off the lead except in a fully enclosed space because there are too many risks.

Although thanks for that post DBB, recall was something we had been leaving until he was better behaved on the lead and with other dogs, but I'm definitely going to start this tonight!

kkcat70

Sorry DBB, didn't finish off the reply to your post completely.
His motivation for running is squirrels and rabbits mainly - loads of both around here. Then something else will take his fancy and will follow the scent of that.
Only worry is that he'll head for some of the local sheep and the farmers don't take kindly to that.

georgieM

There is some great value to be had on that vetuk site

DBB

Hi again OP,
There is a super book that you should get your mitts on... an easy read and easy to follow, and perfect for a squirrel-chasing dog that also has a big interest in toys:
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/stop-how-to-control-predatory-chasing-in-dogs/

David Ryan, the author of the book, is genuinely a super, "real world" trainer and behaviourist, and has a lovely way of engaging the reader, he really understands dogs and their owners! Now, if you're going for this, really do stick with what this book recommends... it's a technique I've used for lots of dogs, not just predatory dogs, and it's fab!

kkcat70

Thanks DBB, I'll give it a go.

Ashbx

Don't give up OP! I was fostering a dog a while back and it used to frustrate me that I couldn't let him off lead because my other two are amazing off lead! But I just learned to deal with it. I got him a flexi lead so that when we got to the fields, he had a bit more of a free reign around and just meant that playing fetch was left to our garden. Unfortunately, when you have a dog with such a high drive, its hard to knock it out of them!

However, collies are amazingly smart dogs. Take some time to do some serious training and I definitely think you will see a difference. Try let them off an empty dog park and practice your recall there.

As Cows go u said, try running the opposite way! I do this sometimes if my dogs wander a bit infront of me. It just gives them an extra energy release because they chase after me full speed! I always give this advice to people when they cant catch their dogs because its really proven to work in the past!