So...whats the point in mass cards?

Cabaal

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Also it is interesting that there is Irish legislation regarding mass cards.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0006/sec0099.html
If proof were ever needed of the capture of our legislature by a specific religious denomination, look no further than this.

Thats actually frightening that there's specific legislation for mass cards :eek:

So if a unrecognised person sells/signs them they can be pursed under law?

keano_afc

As has been said, mass cards are about as much use as praying for the dead - absolutely none. Its a money making exercise preying on the vulnerable.

uck51js9zml2yt

There is no biblical basis for purgatory or limbo nor indeed waiting to know where we go after death.
ST Paul says that for the believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Equally if your not a believer , you are not present with Him after death.

There is also no basis for the living to be able to interceded for the dead or visa versa based on the parable of Lazarus and the rich ruler.

Jellybaby1

LordSutch wrote: »

Not sure there's such thing as a Protestant athiest......

It may sound a bit contradictory, however, I happen to know a few. You'd be surprised where they may turn up, too.

hinault

Cabaal wrote: »

My understanding is ................

And there you have it.

hinault

Jonah Raspy Penknife wrote: »

There is no biblical basis for purgatory or limbo nor indeed waiting to know where we go after death.
ST Paul says that for the believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Equally if your not a believer , you are not present with Him after death.

There is also no basis for the living to be able to interceded for the dead or visa versa based on the parable of Lazarus and the rich ruler.

There is Biblical Scripture which justifies praying for the Dead though.

In the Old Testament, 2 Book of Machabees in Chapter 12 states

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

St.Paul writing to Corinthians says

Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire

Jesus alludes to the fact that there is some forgiveness in the after life,

Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come

So where is this forgiveness earned? Not in Heaven and it can't be in Hell, so it must be earned somewhere such as Purgatory.

katydid

hinault wrote: »

There is Biblical Scripture which justifies praying for the Dead though.

In the Old Testament, 2 Book of Machabees in Chapter 12 states



St.Paul writing to Corinthians says



Jesus alludes to the fact that there is some forgiveness in the after life,



So where is this forgiveness earned? Not in Heaven and it can't be in Hell, so it must be earned somewhere such as Purgatory.

Isn't the point of the New Covenant that we are saved because of the actions of Jesus? So what value has a quotation from the Old Testament, from a people who had a whole different understanding of sin and salvation?

I don't think anyone would argue that a person's life would not be arbitrated on in the afterlife, but that is not the same as saying that prayers said by the living would influence that arbitration. The person's faith and actions are what decide it and when they are dead, it's too late to change that.

Peregrinus

katydid wrote: »

. . . I don't think anyone would argue that a person's life would not be arbitrated on in the afterlife, but that is not the same as saying that prayers said by the living would influence that arbitration. The person's faith and actions are what decide it and when they are dead, it's too late to change that.

I think you're possibly being a bit earthbound, there, katydid. From our point of view, limited as we are by our (literally) temporal existence, we distinguish between past and future. But, to God, all things are immediately present; there is no past, present or future. Thus it makes no sense to suggest that God's response to our prayers is in any way constrained by the date on which we happen to make them; that would be to imply a God who is limited by our nature.

If you accept that my prayers for you can have any effect at all on your response to grace, there's absolutely no reason to think that the effect depends on when I happen to make the prayer, is there?

katydid

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think you're possibly being a bit earthbound, there, katydid. From our point of view, limited as we are by our (literally) temporal existence, we distinguish between past and future. But, to God, all things are immediately present; there is no past, present or future. Thus it makes no sense to suggest that God's response to our prayers is in any way constrained by the date on which we happen to make them; that would be to imply a God who is limited by our nature.

If you accept that my prayers for you can have any effect at all on your response to grace, there's absolutely no reason to think that the effect depends on when I happen to make the prayer, is there?

If I'm "earthbound" your theory seems on another planet! :P

No, I do get what you're saying but it seems to be to be wishful thinking in order to justify the concept that the deity can be influenced by factors other than an individuals actions and beliefs.

tipptom

Theres a shop near me sells the card and the priests signature on it that I usually cannot pronounce for a fiver,does this kind of cheapskating on my behalf slow down the process of the intention of the card than if it were my local PP and I wonder do people comment on it when they look at it?




I think my above statement highlights how ridiculous the monetary situation with mass cards is.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

There is Biblical Scripture which justifies praying for the Dead though.

In the Old Testament, 2 Book of Machabees in Chapter 12 states



St.Paul writing to Corinthians says



Jesus alludes to the fact that there is some forgiveness in the after life,



So where is this forgiveness earned? Not in Heaven and it can't be in Hell, so it must be earned somewhere such as Purgatory.

Firstly Maccabees was not accepted ad part of the original canon so not classed as part of scripture by anyone apart from thosecwho are RC.
The verses in Corinthian s refer to reward and not salvation.
As for blasphemy against the Holy Sprit. There is no forgiveness.
To say we can earn forgiveness for anything is to say the Redemption of Jesus was incomplete which is in itself blasphemous.

hinault

Jonah Raspy Penknife wrote: »

Firstly Maccabees was not accepted ad part of the original canon so not classed as part of scripture by anyone

Incorrect.

2 Book of Machabees was part of the Septuagint.

Jonah Raspy Penknife wrote: »

The verses in Corinthian s refer to reward and not salvation.

Incorrect.

Jonah Raspy Penknife wrote: »

is to say the Redemption of Jesus was incomplete which is in itself blasphemous.

Incorrect again because no one here suggested that the Redemption of Jesus was incomplete.

Mrs OBumble

LordSutch wrote: »

Certainly don't exist in the Church of Ireland, indeed I'm still not sure exactly what they are or what they're for?

I mean why pay to have a prayer put on a card? obviously from a Protestant point of view the practice seems almost sacrilegious > paying money for prayers :cool:

Irish Catholics have very low self-esteem. They don't believe that their own prayers are heard, and they do believe that the relatives of the deceased will get comfort from the idea that a priest is saying a Mass for the person.

Catholic from at least some other countries don't suffer from this affliction. If someone I know dies and I want them prayed for, then I take my own butt to an appropriate place and pray. And I probably send a sympathy card to the family too. But I see no need to pay a priest to do the praying for me.

tipptom

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Irish Catholics have very low self-esteem. They don't believe that their own prayers are heard, and they do believe that the relatives of the deceased will get comfort from the idea that a priest is saying a Mass for the person.

Catholic from at least some other countries don't suffer from this affliction. If someone I know dies and I want them prayed for, then I take my own butt to an appropriate place and pray. And I probably send a sympathy card to the family too. But I see no need to pay a priest to do the praying for me.

Then again we have to pay here to have our baptism,weddings funerals so I guess that mass cards are looked upon as an added earner.


Years ago we would have to place money on the coffin at a funeral!!.


Not to mention the offertory's and the amounts that was read out from the alter that each individual gave and my mother commenting on how meagre our contribution was made to look compared to less well off family's.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

Incorrect.

2 Book of Machabees was part of the Septuagint.




Incorrect.



Incorrect again because no one here suggested that the Redemption of Jesus was incomplete.

The very fact he that you think you can earn forgiveness makes it of works and not of grace which makes His Sacrifice incomplete.

keano_afc

If we can pray people into heaven it makes Christ's death completely superfluous.

There is nothing in scripture suggesting praying for the dead has any value.

hinault

Jonah Raspy Penknife wrote: »

The very fact he that you think you can earn forgiveness makes it of works and not of grace which makes His Sacrifice incomplete.

Incorrect.

Jesus Redemption is complete.

The sinners redemption, if not confined to Hell already, can be completed too through prayer.

It's important to pray for the souls of those who have passed on and who are in Purgatory.
Scripture commands us to pray for the dead.

Jellybaby1

This is a fascinating thread. Problem is, there are RC's, and Protestants, both giving their own beliefs. Both have been taught differently by their own religions. Both churches say they are right. Even if each individual checks everything in scripture, the RC Bible and the Protestant Bible do differ unfortunately to some degree. So, there will be no total agreement. As much as I wish our two churches could merge and become one wholly Christ based church, it is all too clear that it can't happen as long as each believes so differently. Besides, I don't want to pay to keep double the amount of bishops and archbishops in jobs. Ecumenism is really only about coping with each other and being PC, but doesn't really bring the two together. Ordinary RC and Protestant people in our country do a heck of a lot more good in coming together than all the meetings and photographs of our bishops and leaders will ever do.

keano_afc

hinault wrote: »

Incorrect.

Jesus Redemption is complete.

The sinners redemption, if not confined to Hell already, can be completed too through prayer.

It's important to pray for the souls of those who have passed on and who are in Purgatory.
Scripture commands us to pray for the dead.

Where?

There is no such place as Purgatory Hinault, as the idea of a "waiting room" is completely contrary to Christ's death.

Some scripture that refutes purgatory:

Isaiah 53:5: “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.”

Hebrews 7:27: "He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.

Ephesians 8:9: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is bot your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I'll gladly debate this with you, but I know you're not fond of that.

The Randy Riverbeast

Didn't the pope say there is no purgatory?

LordSutch

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

This is a fascinating thread. Problem is, there are RC's, and Protestants, both giving their own beliefs. Both have been taught differently by their own religions. Both churches say they are right. Even if each individual checks everything in scripture, the RC Bible and the Protestant Bible do differ unfortunately to some degree. So, there will be no total agreement. As much as I wish our two churches could merge and become one wholly Christ based church, it is all too clear that it can't happen as long as each believes so differently. Besides, I don't want to pay to keep double the amount of bishops and archbishops in jobs. Ecumenism is really only about coping with each other and being PC, but doesn't really bring the two together. Ordinary RC and Protestant people in our country do a heck of a lot more good in coming together than all the meetings and photographs of our bishops and leaders will ever do.

Different Bibles? never knew that.

That explains a lot.

hinault

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

Didn't the pope say there is no purgatory?

When did he say this?

hinault

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

This is a fascinating thread. Problem is, there are RC's, and Protestants, both giving their own beliefs. Both have been taught differently by their own religions. Both churches say they are right. Even if each individual checks everything in scripture, the RC Bible and the Protestant Bible do differ unfortunately to some degree. So, there will be no total agreement. As much as I wish our two churches could merge and become one wholly Christ based church, it is all too clear that it can't happen as long as each believes so differently. Besides, I don't want to pay to keep double the amount of bishops and archbishops in jobs. Ecumenism is really only about coping with each other and being PC, but doesn't really bring the two together. Ordinary RC and Protestant people in our country do a heck of a lot more good in coming together than all the meetings and photographs of our bishops and leaders will ever do.

Martin Luther edited the Bible to create his own bible which protestants now use as their bible.

As far as I know Luther's bible contains only 66 books.

uck51js9zml2yt

I left the RC church 30 years ago and i m not protestant. I didnt leave one denominations to join another.

homer911

hinault wrote: »

Martin Luther edited the Bible to create his own bible which protestants now use as their bible.

As far as I know Luther's bible contains only 66 books.

In this case I believe the Jewish tradition did exactly the same thing..

homer911

LordSutch wrote: »

Different Bibles? never knew that.

That explains a lot.

Its actually a lot more complicated than just Protestant and Catholic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

katydid

tipptom wrote: »

[/B] Then again we have to pay here to have our baptism,weddings funerals so I guess that mass cards are looked upon as an added earner.

.

In fairness, these occasions involve the priest, and other people, doing extra work. The church has to be opened, heated, cleaned. And the people involved are giving their time.

A donation is appropriate.

hinault

homer911 wrote: »

In this case I believe the Jewish tradition did exactly the same thing..

You could be correct there. I'm not acquainted sufficiently with the Hebrew Bible to be able to comment.

Jellybaby1

homer911 wrote: »

Its actually a lot more complicated than just Protestant and Catholic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

Thank you for that link. A quick glance tells me that my simplified statement of the Protestant and RC Bibles differing to a certain degree, was correct, albeit it in the tiniest of ways, however, my unqualified opinion still stands, my Bible does not have the Apocrypha so I have never read it. Funny how there is so much that IS the same, and still the churches both teach it differently i.e. (a) "you MUST pay for a mass card in order to get your deceased relative into heaven" and (b) you DO NOT HAVE TO pay for a mass card in order to get your deceased relative into heaven". No wonder the churches are emptying at such an alarming rate. Well, our church leaders SHOULD be alarmed.

Cabaal

hinault wrote: »

And there you have it.

Have what exactly?

Cabaal

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

Didn't the pope say there is no purgatory?

Limbo was shut down a few years ago, it resulted in many job losses. - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1549439/The-Pope-ends-state-of-limbo-after-800-years.html

It seems purgatory is still operating

The Randy Riverbeast

hinault wrote: »

When did he say this?

I thought it was around the time they decided unbaptised babies didnt go there but it would seem I got it mixed up with limbo.

Cabaal wrote: »

Limbo was shut down a few years ago, it resulted in many job losses. - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1549439/The-Pope-ends-state-of-limbo-after-800-years.html

It seems purgatory is still operating

Thats the one

Lord Riverside

Mass cards are fine, it's a nice sentiment, if someone is a Catholic.

Irish Mass cards did, and still do, support many local and foreign parishes for years.

The abuse of mass cards, by the anything but religious, was rampant in recent years though.

From RTE in 2009

"In his judgment, Mr Justice McMenamin held that there was ample material to show that certain of MCC's and other businesses activities could mislead ordinary Catholics or purchasers as to the authenticity of their Mass cards and their compliance with canon law.

He described the arrangements made by MCC for celebration of masses as 'surprising', noting that that the €3,600 annual fee paid to a priest in the West Indies for saying masses was 'a tiny fraction' of the €250,000 turnover of the business."

Safehands

Cabaal wrote: »

Limbo was shut down a few years ago, it resulted in many job losses. - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1549439/The-Pope-ends-state-of-limbo-after-800-years.html

I downloaded this some time ago, I'm not sure of the exact website it came from, but I think it is relevant to this discussion: Pope Benedict XVI authorized publication of a document, indicating that he considers it consonant with the Church's teaching, though it is not an official expression of that teaching. Media reports that by the document "the Pope closed Limbo" are thus without foundation. In fact, the document explicitly states that "the theory of limbo, understood as a state which includes the souls of infants who die subject to original sin and without baptism, and who, therefore, neither merit the beatific vision, nor yet are subjected to any punishment, because they are not guilty of any personal sin. This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium. Still, that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis" (second preliminary paragraph); and in paragraph 41 it repeats that the theory of Limbo "remains a possible theological opinion". The document thus allows the hypothesis of a limbo of infants to be held as one of the existing theories about the fate of children who die without being baptised, a question on which there is "no explicit answer" from Scripture or tradition. It ought also to be mentioned here that the traditional theological alternative to Limbo was not Heaven, but rather some degree of suffering in Hell. At any rate, these theories are not the official teaching of the Catholic Church, but are only opinions that the Church does not condemn, permitting them to be held by its members, just as is the theory of possible salvation for infants dying without baptism.

So Limbo has not gone away.

tipptom

Lord Riverside wrote: »

Mass cards are fine, it's a nice sentiment, if someone is a Catholic.

Irish Mass cards did, and still do, support many local and foreign parishes for years.

The abuse of mass cards, by the anything but religious, was rampant in recent years though.

From RTE in 2009

"In his judgment, Mr Justice McMenamin held that there was ample material to show that certain of MCC's and other businesses activities could mislead ordinary Catholics or purchasers as to the authenticity of their Mass cards and their compliance with canon law.

He described the arrangements made by MCC for celebration of masses as 'surprising', noting that that the €3,600 annual fee paid to a priest in the West Indies for saying masses was 'a tiny fraction' of the €250,000 turnover of the business."

That's a lotta lotta masses to be said,how does he get the time to attend to his parishoners.
Sweat shop wages!!

Safehands

tipptom wrote: »

[/B] That's a lotta lotta masses to be said,how does he get the time to attend to his parishoners.
Sweat shop wages!!

At the end of the day, Mass cards are a bit like birthday cards really. They let someone know that you are thinking of them. You are getting a Mass said for their loved one. That is a nice sentiment, even if you are a non believer.

The Catholic church is a business, just like any other business. It's business is salvation of our souls. If you want to fully engage it will cost you money.
Having Masses said for special intentions carries an undetermined fee, weddings and Christenings are generally the same. It's all part of the business. That's fair enough really, it does cost money to run such a huge organisation.

I'm not sure what Christ would have said about it, or maybe I am!

katydid

Safehands wrote: »

At the end of the day, Mass cards are a bit like birthday cards really. They let someone know that you are thinking of them. You are getting a Mass said for their loved one. That is a nice sentiment, even if you are a non believer.

The Catholic church is a business, just like any other business. It's business is salvation of our souls. If you want to fully engage it will cost you money.
Having Masses said for special intentions carries an undetermined fee, weddings and Christenings are generally the same. It's all part of the business. That's fair enough really, it does cost money to run such a huge organisation.

I'm not sure what Christ would have said about it, or maybe I am!

It costs money to run a business, and giving money for services rendered, such as christenings, is one thing. Taking money for saying a person's name in the middle of a mass, with the idea that somehow that will expedite the person's journey in the afterlife, is cynical and exploitative.

Safehands

katydid wrote: »

It costs money to run a business, and giving money for services rendered, such as christenings, is one thing. Taking money for saying a person's name in the middle of a mass, with the idea that somehow that will expedite the person's journey in the afterlife, is cynical and exploitative.

Of course it is Katy. But there is an argument that it gives solace to the person making the request. I can't really understand how doing it every year for twenty years can actually be seen as helping the dead person to get into Heaven. Are they saying that God needs to be reminded not to forget this person? That end of it is nonsense, but once again, people don't think about it. They just go along with the whole thing put out by the clergy.
However, it is a good way of remembering the deceased person. It's harmless enough, even if it is extracting money under false pretences.

tipptom

We get a rundown of ingoings/outgoings every year on Parish expenses even down to laundry just before they look for offertory's ,never anything on it about incomings of donations,mass cards,weddings,funerals,christenings etc.




The same PP stopped the local shop from selling mass cards from other priests that were cheaper.

Peregrinus

tipptom wrote: »

We get a rundown of ingoings/outgoings every year on Parish expenses even down to laundry just before they look for offertory's ,never anything on it about incomings of donations,mass cards,weddings,funerals,christenings etc.

Can't tell you about weddings and funerals, but mass offerings don't belong to the parish are are correctly not shown as income of the parish. They belong to the priest to whom they are given.

WheatenBriar

To be fair,the 30 euros youd give a priest to say or dedicate a mass was always seen as a thank you to them
They dont earn much and have a tough enough life dealing with death,sickness and tragedies on a daily basis
Begrudging it to them is not the thing to do

Safehands

Peregrinus wrote: »

Can't tell you about weddings and funerals, but mass offerings don't belong to the parish are are correctly not shown as income of the parish. They belong to the priest to whom they are given.

Hmmm. I suspect that most Cathoics think the priest hands this money over to the church. As I said, its a business. Do waiters declare tips, do taxi men? This is no different. These "donations" are actually tips. I'm sure the church takes this into consideration when making up salaries for priests.

tipptom

Safehands wrote: »

Hmmm. I suspect that most Cathoics think the priest hands this money over to the church. As I said, its a business. Do waiters declare tips, do taxi men? This is no different. These "donations" are actually tips. I'm sure the church takes this into consideration when making up salaries for priests.

To be honest I thought they did hand it over and that all Priests got the same stipend.
I would say in a busy Parish that this money adds up to a pretty penny over the course of a year for them to keep it all along with what the Church gives them.

Safehands

tipptom wrote: »

To be honest I thought they did hand it over and that all Priests got the same stipend.
I would say in a busy Parish that this money adds up to a pretty penny over the course of a year for them to keep it all along with what the Church gives them.

Its a business Tipptom, and it's going to be a very lucrative one as the priests become fewer and fewer.

Peregrinus

All diocesan priests do get the same stipend. But if you ask the priest to celebrate a service specifically for you and make him an offering in respect of that, that's his. Asking him to say a mass for you would be the commonest example of that, but if you make him an offering to, e.g., celebrate your wedding or bless your new car, that's also his.

The thing is, for weddings etc you're likely also to be making a payment to the parish (for the use of the church, etc) and in many cases priests attached to the parish don't seek, or won't accept, a personal offering on top of that. But if you arrange for a priest from outside the parish to come to the parish and celebrate your wedding there yes, the done thing is to make him an offering, which is his.

While other denominations and religions generally don't have the equivalent of mass cards, in general I think it works the same way. If you ask a rabbi or an anglican minister to minister a service for you, you expect to pay him for that. If he's the minister of your parish or congregation he may discourage this, or decline outright, or he may not.

katydid

Safehands wrote: »

Of course it is Katy. But there is an argument that it gives solace to the person making the request. I can't really understand how doing it every year for twenty years can actually be seen as helping the dead person to get into Heaven. Are they saying that God needs to be reminded not to forget this person? That end of it is nonsense, but once again, people don't think about it. They just go along with the whole thing put out by the clergy.
However, it is a good way of remembering the deceased person. It's harmless enough, even if it is extracting money under false pretences.

How can you find solace in the idea that some unknown priest is going to read a name of someone he doesn't know from Adam from a list in the middle of mass?

There are many ways a priest could provide solace for the bereaved, but it is beyond me how an exercise like that can provide solace for anyone.

Can they not by a sympathy card, and make a donation to charity on behalf of the person who is dead? Even if the name isn't used, it's known to God...

katydid

WheatenBriar wrote: »

To be fair,the 30 euros youd give a priest to say or dedicate a mass was always seen as a thank you to them
They dont earn much and have a tough enough life dealing with death,sickness and tragedies on a daily basis
Begrudging it to them is not the thing to do

But they're not saying or dedicating a mass to anyone. That would mean mentioning them in a meaningful way, reminding the congregation of the person, and remembering them together.

An anonymous priest, who could be anywhere in the world, reads a name off a list. That is not a dedication in any sense of the word.

Peregrinus

katydid wrote: »

How can you find solace in the idea that some unknown priest is going to read a name of someone he doesn't know from Adam from a list in the middle of mass?

People find solace from knowing that their loved ones are remembered in the prayers of others.

I frequently pray for people who I don't know personally - e.g. the victims and refugees of the current war in Syria. I'm sure you do to. I don't think our prayers are devalued by not knowing them personally. God knows them; isn't that good enough?

tipptom

Call me a cynic,but does anyone believe that there is a PP in the West indies actually reading out a stream of Irish names during their parishoners morning mass because if the revenue stream is to be believed from that case they would be sitting there for a while listening to strange names from across the world.

Peregrinus

Routing mass offerings onwards to missionary priests is a long-standing practice - it's one of the ways that priests are supported in parishes in poor countries that are unable to support a priest. The priest says masses for the intentions of the donors. He doesn't know (or need to know) the donors' names, or the details of their intentions; God knows them already.

Usually if a mass is said for a deceased person the person's name will only be explicitly included in the spoken prayers if there is somebody in the congregation who would be likely to know the person.