Women should dress modestly or expect to ‘entice a rapist’ – claims Chrissie Hynde

lanos

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Rapists don't care how dressed women are. They want to undress them and rape them. If a woman was wearing a burka or a bikini makes no difference because she has a vagina and getting at that vagina is what the rapist is interested in.

you seem awfully sure of that.

maybe its your own story you're telling.

Banned

Summer wind

If a man or woman is raped it is 100% never ever their fault. It doesn't matter if they are drunk or sober or on drugs or not or how they are dressed. It is not their fault.

osarusan

Old Jakey wrote: »

No.

You believe that the 'too drunk to consent' argument is a load of crap, and simultaneously believe that there are times when a person is too drunk to consent.

Good luck with that.

donegaLroad

I think it is a career move by Chrissie Hynde.

Many of yesterday's stars are discovering that being controversial brings them back into the spotlight again, via social media. So when Twitter, Facebook etc are littered with posts urging people to check out what such-and-such famous person has just said.... millions of younger social media users are Googling 'Chrissie Hynde' to find out who this person is, and in doing so may discover the Pretenders and download their albums from itunes.

*Breaking news.... Frankie Goes to Hollywood have declared they support marriage equality for Saudi Arabia

rubadub

wakka12 wrote: »

they don't care if its a hot skinny blonde in a tight revealing dress or a fat sack of potatoes dressed in a bin bag, they'll rape whatever they think they can without getting caught.

josephryan1989 wrote: »

Rapists don't care how dressed women are. They want to undress them and rape them. If a woman was wearing a burka or a bikini makes no difference because she has a vagina and getting at that vagina is what the rapist is interested in.

If true then the rapist certainly would care how they are dressed. Instead of saying "not to wear clothes which more easily facilitate rape" they usually advise "not to wear provocative/sexy clothing", which I guess to some is a better way of saying the former as a lot of revealing/sexy clothing will facilitate access. It's quite a taboo subject so they may avoid clearly spelling it out. Wearing "sexy" clothing like skin tight leather trousers could be far more of a deterrent than wearing nothing but a dowdy old bathrobe which covers everything yet allows the attacker to easily commit the crime. Tight leather trousers could serve as a form of chastity belt.

If similar advice was given to males in prison I wonder if there would be such uproar and backlash. Or if they gave gender neutral advice about clothing which gives easy access to the groin area.

The garda could be accused of "vicitm blaming" with this advice.
http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=14446

5. Watch out for pickpockets in crowded areas. Keep handbags zipped and don’t put your wallet in your back pocket. In bars and restaurants take care about where you store coats and handbags.

fuck you, I'll put my wallet where I want, I should be allowed freely walk the streets with 50 notes hanging out of all pockets.

This advice is obviously aimed at reducing the risk of a stranger attacking, which would be in the minority of rape cases. I think it's crazy that some dismiss it because of this. If 10% of burglaries were attributed to burglars getting in an unlocked front door people would not dismiss it completely.

Jenny Thalia wrote: »

Absolutely, because that's NOT rape. It's two people making silly choices and consenting while drunk.

The rape aspect comes into play when the person is absolutely hammered. The falling on the floor, puking on oneself, blacking out and having no memory the next day kind of hammered.

People can be completely coherent and not falling about at all while in blackouts. I remember the rape crisis centre in Dublin reporting no confirmed cases of "date rape drugs" being used at one time. Of course there were, but it was the more traditional date rape drug -alcohol.

Jon Stark

rubadub wrote: »

People can be completely coherent and not falling about at all while in blackouts. I remember the rape crisis centre in Dublin reporting no confirmed cases of "date rape drugs" being used at one time. Of course there were, but it was the more traditional date rape drug -alcohol.

What a scary thought, that someone can seem together while in blackout mode.

This is why I tend not to get involved with people when alcohol or anything else is possibly at play, as you just don't know what you'll be waking up to the next morning.

jank

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

While I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to take precautions to protect themselves, rape is never the victim's fault. Never. I'm not surprised to see the Telegraph spouting guff like this to be honest. It's just the Daily Mail with bigger words.

The original interview was with the Sunday times......

The Corinthian

kylith wrote: »

And I've had that happen; waking up the morning after a party and rolling over and seeing some guy and thinking 'Oh Christ, I wish I hadn't done that', but it would never have crossed my mind to call it rape, because it wasn't; it was a stupid drunken mistake.

TBH, that happens to us all. As Brendan Behan once quipped "I've never gone to bed with an ugly woman, but I've woken up with a few".

A friend of mine once told me of when he and his then girlfriend got home after a night on the town. Both were tired and very drunk. They got naked, she climbed on top of him and started having sex. Next thing he knew it was morning. He nudged her affectionately and got a cold response.

After some discussion it emerged that they were having sex and out of the blue he let out a huge snore - he'd fallen asleep - and she was a bit annoyed at this. However, when asked what happened next she admitted to him she finished herself off before climbing off again.

There's actually very few if any couples who would consider that rape, although it satisfies the unconscious condition earlier mentioned. Then there's where no one is unconscious, but may be so drunk where their ability to consent might be in question. How would their partner be able to judge this themselves if they too are in a similar state of inebriation (drinkers droop is frankly an exaggerated phenomenon, so it can easily occur)?

Similarly, were I to get beaten up for walking down the Falls road in Belfast, while wearing a Rangers T-shirt, I'd have to admit that my choice of attire was a contributing factor. This is not to say that I believe that provocative clothing is much of a determinant in rape (our society is so saturated with this I doubt clothes do make a difference) but going down a dodgy part of the city alone, or drinking to such a level you can't walk (all to often in Irish society) is asking for trouble, regardless of your gender and we can hardly abdicate all responsibility for our own actions behind the shield of 'victim blaming'.

fryup

Mint Aero wrote: »

Oh hell no, oh no she di'ant. Wait, wait...who the f*ck is Chrissie Hynde? and why should I care that she exists let alone what she said about something?

She's the lead singer of The Pretenders and one of the finest female vocalists of all time

seamus

fryup wrote: »

She's the lead singer of The Pretenders and one of the finest female vocalists of all time

She hasn't been famous in real sense of the word in about 30 years.

I'm not sure why she's getting any airtime when she has nothing of interest to offer except views from the 1970s.

josephryan1989

seamus wrote: »

She hasn't been famous in real sense of the word in about 30 years.

I'm not sure why she's getting any airtime when she has nothing of interest to offer except views from the 1970s.

She sang the end theme of the Timothy Dalton Bond movie Living Daylights called If There Was A Man. Very emotional and deeply romantic song and if her bad experiences with men are true it puts it n a new light.

zeffabelli

Candie wrote: »

So girls who are unconscious aren't raped if a guy has sex with them?

Sure thing.

Drunk and unconscious are not the same thing.

Also drunk does not eradicate responsibility. Other wise drunk drivers would get off and the rapist who is under the influence would also be exempt.

zeffabelli

Penny Tration wrote: »

Absolutely, because that's NOT rape. It's two people making silly choices and consenting while drunk.

The rape aspect comes into play when the person is absolutely hammered. The falling on the floor, puking on oneself, blacking out and having no memory the next day kind of hammered.

Unfortunately, a few unsavoury people have cried rape after drunk sex, which muddies the waters somewhat.

Unfortunately there's a coven of ideologues who will try to and often successfully convince these girls they were raped.

zeffabelli

Summer wind wrote: »

If a man or woman is raped it is 100% never ever their fault. It doesn't matter if they are drunk or sober or on drugs or not or how they are dressed. It is not their fault.

Yeah but if your so drunk and you consent and then either can't remember or have buyers remorse? Then yes that is your fault.

NachoBusiness

Haven't seen much support, if any, of Chrissie Hynde's comments, apart from that is from Julia Hartley-Brewer who has said the following:

Chrissie Hynde was right about rape. Now feminists want to silence her.

There is no room for debate, nuanced argument or even personal opinion in the Sisterhood orthodoxy. You’re either a Sister and agree that women take no responsibility for anything that happens to them or their bodies whatever the circumstances, or you are a “rape apologist”. It’s one or the other.

There will always be rapists, just as there will always be murderers and thieves. Pretending they don’t exist doesn’t make them go away.

You have every right to leave your front door wide open while you are away on holiday and assert your right not be burgled, but most people (including your insurance company) might advise against it. Similarly, you are entitled to walk into an opposing football team’s local pub wearing your own club’s shirt and demand not be punched in the face, but you probably shouldn’t be surprised if it happens.

In the same vein, telling a young woman she can wear what she wants, drink as much alcohol as she wants, go off with any strange man she wants and to hell with the consequences, is not a victory for modern feminism. It’s just irresponsible.

All Chrissie Hynde has done is recognise that the world is not always as we would like it to be.

That does not make her a rape apologist. It just proves she is the one living in the real world and it is the Sisterhood who are the pretenders.

You can read the rest of the article here.

I wasn't sure I agreed with much of what she said regarding women being silenced but then I see in the news that Loose Women apparently had a poll on yesterday's show and asked:

"Poll: After Pretenders singer Chrissie Hynde's comments- we're asking is it ever a woman's fault if she is raped?”

Today however they have had to issue an apology for having asked the question and Ofcom are investigating the matter.
But surely just posing a question doesn't require an apology or an investigation for heaven sake.

frostyjacks

Hartley-Brewer hits the nail on the head:

"telling a young woman she can wear what she wants, drink as much alcohol as she wants, go off with any strange man she wants and to hell with the consequences, is not a victory for modern feminism. It’s just irresponsible."

Nobody is trying to put women in their place, tell them what to wear or how much they should drink. Just be responsible, like everyone else. I wouldn't walk down the Shankill Road wearing a Celtic jersey, so why do women feel they can get inebriated on a night out without accepting the risks?

Overheal

If I walk around with a suit made of money, and pockets full of cash, I am definitely increasing my risk of being mugged. It doesn't (shouldn't) discount what the mugger does, and only provides some rationale for what may have contributed to its triggering.

People only seem to take exception to that logic as it is applied to sexual assault.

It is never the victim's fault they are raped, but they naturally may want to exercise some level of caution. Whether that is clothing or not (point made about Muslim women) is highly debatable. A rapist could just as easily approach a woman in a turtleneck sweatshirt and cargo shorts and it doesn't discount the fact that she's a woman and is attractive to the rapist. Clothes are not the only trigger for attraction; nobody I imagine goes off to fcuk a skirt because of how sultry it was.

Medusa22

Cold War Kid wrote: »

I gotta say I think she's right to view it as stupid and irresponsible for anyone to get completely wasted and wander off by themselves at night (did it myself several times when younger and I'm just relieved nothing happened to me, because it could have).

Basically, limit your vulnerability as much as you can - this applies to absolutely any situation.

If you are raped (or assaulted or mugged) though, the attacker is the one to blame - because they have a choice, they don't *have* to attack anyone, just because the opportunity has arisen. They can control themselves.

Using terms like "should expect", "fault", "entice rapists" is just being an ass. If she had said it's stupid and irresponsible, that would be fairer - but that's not attention-grabbing I guess.

Also, when people are young and silly, they do stupid things - it's part of life and learning, it doesn't make them deserve to be attacked.

I absolutely agree with you, and I think you phrased it quite well. I often struggle to avoid seeming like I am ''victim blaming'' when really I just think that people should be aware of their own safety and try to minimise risks, but that in no way negates what a rapist does or puts any of the responsibility of what happens onto the victim. It is just about trying to keep yourself safe as best you can. Like CWK, I also got drunk and wandered off on my own and got into some very sticky situations which thankfully didn't end badly but I should have been more careful. If I had been raped then no, it would not have been my fault, but I could also have not behaved so recklessly at the same time.

The bit about high heels though in the article? Utter nonsense

Medusa22

Jon Stark wrote: »

What a scary thought, that someone can seem together while in blackout mode.

This is why I tend not to get involved with people when alcohol or anything else is possibly at play, as you just don't know what you'll be waking up to the next morning.

I've definitely been able to walk and hold a conversation but the following day I've had no recollection of what happened at all, complete black out.

Jon Stark

Medusa22 wrote: »

I've definitely been able to walk and hold a conversation but the following day I've had no recollection of what happened at all, complete black out.

I've learned from it anyway, I've experienced it myself where I've thought I've had a great time with someone (like just something as innocent as a conversation) only for the other person to not remember it all.

It puts me off people like that as you don't what kind of trouble they can get you in.

beks101

It's a tough one because you mention the R word and you're labelled either a hairy-pitted feminazi or a 'potential rapist' yourself, depending on your views. You can't see the reason behind advising women to take safety precautions because we don't live in a utopia where they can walk down the street in a bikini and not provoke a reaction - without being some kind of a victim-blaming monster yourself.

A rapist is a rapist is a rapist. Some guy who thinks a woman is his property for the taking because he's got fundamental power or self control issues or violent tendencies, is no woman on earth's fault whether she's in a bikini or a burka. He's probably going to cause serious damage to some woman somewhere anyway.

But unfortunately we live in a society where we have to legislate to that 1%, the guys who will see a woman as fair game because she's in a short skirt and is alone and is off her face. Just like we have to play to the 1% who will spike your drink if you leave it unattended or rob your house if you leave the window open. This isn't scare-mongering or victim-blaming, it's common sense and self-protection, because unfortunately the world is a sh1tty place. You should be allowed to leave the house and walk around alone in the dark in a barely-there dress and some high heels without fearing for your safety, and in most cases you will be safe - but that 1% of the time you might not be - and that should be a high enough percentage to consider taking precautions.

It's obvious though from reading Chrissie Hynde's words that victim-blaming is the way she chose to deal with her own trauma, perhaps a way of claiming some responsibility and control over something she ultimately couldn't prevent. It's obviously a coping mechanism of some sort for her. And the language is very dangerous.

Infini

Its always a dodgy subject but the logic isn't completely wrong either. Getting Drunk/Stoned as a woman and walking around in a barely there dress for example is basically like waving the red flag at the bull. Doesn't mean the woman is wrong in any way but just that they're leaving themselves vulnerable and exposed to less savory types wanting to have their way with them.

Bottom line of course is the attacker is the one who's 100% wrong without exception. The only point really being made is to be responsible enough and watch yourself. Nothing wrong with the sexy clothes but don't get punch drunk and stay with friends at least when out and about.

TheLastMohican

Provocative clothing? Worn to provoke - no? Why exactly do females wear revealing clothing?

Afraid to air my views as the latter-day After Hours mods and wimmin shout the loudest and silence all but their own doppelgängers.

They swoop like hungry seagulls. But it's the indignation (manufactured or otherwise) that really is killing boards IMHO.

Mods who are oversensitive with certain issues should take a hike from threads that hurt their sensibilities and let more rounded colleagues take over.

Debate is being stifled all too often by an angry coven.

Incidentally, Chrissie Hynde does a great I Got You Babe with UB40

Penny Tration

I agree with beks, CWK and others in this thread - of course women should take precautions! It's dangerous to go wandering out on your own at night, off your face, regardless of the type of clothing you're wearing.

As touched upon by other posters, that part of Ms. Hynde's announcement was correct. It's her victim blaming I take issue with. Phrases like 'taking responsibility for it' just blame the victim. Take responsible measures to protect yourself, yes. Take responsibility for your part in being raped - no. It's NEVER the fault of a victim and NO responsibility should lay at the victim's feet.

eviltwin

I agree with the taking precautions train of thought, I just wonder where it ends. I'm just back from a run on a very quiet street, no one around. Was that risky? Is walking through a park risky? Is flirting with someone risky? There is a fine line between being careful and having your freedom curtailed.

Penny Tration

eviltwin wrote: »

I agree with the taking precautions train of thought, I just wonder where it ends. I'm just back from a run on a very quiet street, no one around. Was that risky? Is walking through a park risky? Is flirting with someone risky? There is a fine line between being careful and having your freedom curtailed.

That's the thing. I've had the misfortune of being raped by my first boyfriend.

So, what precautions should I have taken?

Not gone to a house party with all of our friends, because obviously that's implies consent to sex?

Not had ONE can of Bulmers at said house party because it affected my ability to remove myself from the situation?

NOT refuse to share a bed with him because it angered him and made him want me more?

NOT changed into pyjamas because it made me look like I was up for it?

Aside from not wandering off on your own drunk at night, what else should we be doing to protect ourselves? We can't stop living our lives out of fear.

kylith

Penny Tration wrote: »

That's the thing. I've had the misfortune of being raped by my first boyfriend.

So, what precautions should I have taken?

Not gone to a house party with all of our friends, because obviously that's implies consent to sex?

Not had ONE can of Bulmers at said house party because it affected my ability to remove myself from the situation?

NOT refuse to share a bed with him because it angered him and made him want me more?

NOT changed into pyjamas because it made me look like I was up for it?

Aside from not wandering off on your own drunk at night, what else should we be doing to protect ourselves? We can't stop living our lives out of fear.

Well that's it, isn't it? If we say women shouldn't get too drunk - well, how drunk is too drunk? How short a dress is too short? Women are still raped in countries where there is no alcohol and they have to wear burkas. There are societies where nudity is normal and rape is practically unheard of. Clearly the booze and the clothing isn't the problem; some men's feelings of entitlement toward another person's body is.

zeffabelli

kylith wrote: »

Well that's it, isn't it? If we say women shouldn't get too drunk - well, how drunk is too drunk? How short a dress is too short? Women are still raped in countries where there is no alcohol and they have to wear burkas. There are societies where nudity is normal and rape is practically unheard of. Clearly the booze and the clothing isn't the problem; some men's feelings of entitlement toward another person's body is.

Sorry, there is a society where rape is practically unheard of? Which society?

kylith

zeffabelli wrote: »

Sorry, there is a society where rape is practically unheard of? Which society?

Granted, it's a tribal society in the middle of a jungle. They had their first recorded rape after missionaries convinced the men that homosexual sex was bad. I'll see if I can dig up the article later; I'm not too keen on searching 'tribe homosexual rape' on the work PC.

frostyjacks

kylith wrote: »

Granted, it's a tribal society in the middle of a jungle. They had their first recorded rape after missionaries convinced the men that homosexual sex was bad. I'll see if I can dig up the article later; I'm not too keen on searching 'tribe homosexual rape' on the work PC.

Ah yes, rape is all religion's fault, of course.