first time triathlete drownns

strewelpeter

Oryx wrote: »

A better visibility approach might be to stop making wetsuits mostly black in the first place.

Thats a very good idea, even if its not straightforward there must be a way to allow better visibility.

rooneyjm wrote: »

Smaller but more waves to ease congestion. Would also help with our old pal "drafting".

Swimming through a start gate to kick off chip timing could greatly reduce the frenzy at the start when most of the serious kicks to the head happen.

ShineyShiney

My sympathies to his family and also a thought for the race organisers. This is every race organisers nightmare.

No cause has yet been determined and anyone taking any actions based on this unfortunate event is foolish in the extreme until the facts are established.

I will not be doing Fjord swim now as its a ridiculous idea with no real consideration to increased participant safety just the perception of increased safety.

The addition of extra water safety and a team of divers would genuinely increase safety this is just daft.

When was the last drowning in Ireland in a sanctioned Ti or swim Ireland event that had the proper permits from councils and water safety officer?

tunney

strewelpeter wrote: »

Thats a very good idea, even if its not straightforward there must be a way to allow better visibility.

Swimming through a start gate to kick off chip timing could greatly reduce the frenzy at the start when most of the serious kicks to the head happen.

How would the start gate start in a race?
In a time trial I can see but in a race it would not be feasible.

JohnBee

Triathlon has moved from a niche sport for the super fit, towards a mass event, tackled by the 10k fun run population who want to tell their friends down the pub how great they are.

To me Toe floats are a ridiculous suggestion, it is basically the organizer stating out loud: "we recognize that many entrants of our race should not be competing, are not fit enough and safe enough to complete the race, and therefore we want to make it easier for our Kayakers to pull you out".

This is ridiculous. Yes increased participation makes events more fun, makes more money. But this avoids the issue.

There is only one solution: proof of competency, anything else is not good enough. Surely this is an opportunity for governing bodies: Have swim competency days, staggered open water swims, 750m, not cycle run, reducing stress, more Kayaks, and charge for it. For those with previous races, evidence of swim time.

Also, an in water rescue in the absence of being kicked in the head/trauma should garner a ban.

WattsUp

I think the idea of a rolling start over a timing mat like Dublin 70.3 would be a help to reduce congestion. Less confident swimmers would be more likely to heed advice and start towards the back if they know they were not starting off with a time disadvantage.
I know it's only 5-10 seconds delay to wait for the serious swimmers to go but but people with competitive instincts, without swim skills to back them up, often go to the front because they don't want to give anyone a headstart.

I would say an initial mass start would be still required for anyone who wanted to contend for overall honours in a race.

Ideally good cover on the water will mean anyone in trouble will be spotted as it happens. However counting in accurately, counting out accurately and acting on any discrepancy is very important as it could buy a few more minutes to search for a swimmer. Waiting to see if there are any bikes left in T1 and then trying to figure if someone actually entered the water or racked the bike but did race just takes too long to initiate any actions.

rooneyjm

20rothmans wrote: »

I think the idea of a rolling start over a timing mat like Dublin 70.3 would be a help to reduce congestion. Less confident swimmers would be more likely to heed advice and start towards the back if they know they were not starting off with a time disadvantage.
I know it's only 5-10 seconds delay to wait for the serious swimmers to go but but people with competitive instincts, without swim skills to back them up, often go to the front because they don't want to give anyone a headstart.

If you pander to peoples stupidity too much then your in danger of diluting the sport. It like they say in boxing "protect yourself at all times", if you go to the front in a swim start (and im not saying that chat did that) and cant swim then expect to be dunked. If you swim up on top of someones legs expect a kick. If you don't feel comfortable with any of that stay to the back or side.

I've been counted into loads of races, Athy, 2Prov, DCT, but you cant legislate for someone jumping out at the bank somewhere and messing up your counting. Then your looking for someone who's not lost, very difficult.

strewelpeter

tunney wrote: »

How would the start gate start in a race?
In a time trial I can see but in a race it would not be feasible.

Sure but what percentage are in a race?

There would certainly be allsorts of problems if there was a gate kicking off chip times and a mass start for those who are in a race :eek:

tunney

strewelpeter wrote: »

Sure but what percentage are in a race?

There would certainly be allsorts of problems if there was a gate kicking off chip times and a mass start for those who are in a race :eek:

the people who think that they aren't in a race are the exact type of people who should be encouraged to play golf instead.

sconhome

strewelpeter wrote: »

Thats a very good idea, even if its not straightforward there must be a way to allow better visibility.

Swimming through a start gate to kick off chip timing could greatly reduce the frenzy at the start when most of the serious kicks to the head happen.

There is but not one that triathletes are happy with.

Check out the Openwater suit from Orca.

Uncoated neoprene in the arms and shoulders is not as free from drag as a fully coated suit.

tunney

These buoys and other things being suggest are not flotation nor life saving devices. They merely simplify the retrieval of corpses.

strewelpeter

tunney wrote: »

the people who think that they aren't in a race are the exact type of people who should be encouraged to play golf instead.

Really? So anyone who doesn't start in the first wave of an event or is only competing against themselves should be playing golf instead... nice attitude.
It wouldn't be appropriate to this thread to call you out on this position but maybe I'll put together a thread when I have time.

iwillhtfu

strewelpeter wrote: »

Really? So anyone who doesn't start in the first wave of an event or is only competing against themselves should be playing golf instead... nice attitude.
It wouldn't be appropriate to this thread to call you out on this position but maybe I'll put together a thread when I have time.

I'd have considered this a race. At least it's the only race I have a chance of ever winning.

Maybe I should dust off the clubs

Kurt_Godel

The more you read about this the more you see it for the tragedy it is. The poor chap who died seemed like a nice guy all round. The organisers of the Triathlon series seemed very pro-active about water safety and now they have to deal with the fall-out.

(Without casting aspersions on this poor guy) there are participants who should not be allowed enter Tri's in Ireland. I've watched races where a backmarker grabs hold of a safety kayak after 50m of the swim start to have a breather- that safety kayak is now out of action for everyone else. Its unfair on organisers that their safety plans are thrown askew for the sake of inclusiveness. Plenty of people get upset that their "rights" are being denied them, without any sense of responsibility on their part. Your right to enter a Tri race as a poor swimmer should be lessened by your likely impact on that races' water safety plan.

tunney

strewelpeter wrote: »

Really? So anyone who doesn't start in the first wave of an event or is only competing against themselves should be playing golf instead... nice attitude.
It wouldn't be appropriate to this thread to call you out on this position but maybe I'll put together a thread when I have time.

Please do. Its a race. If you are not racing then whats the point.

tunney

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

The more you read about this the more you see it for the tragedy it is. The poor chap who died seemed like a nice guy all round. The organisers of the Triathlon series seemed very pro-active about water safety and now they have to deal with the fall-out.

(Without casting aspersions on this poor guy) there are participants who should not be allowed enter Tri's in Ireland. I've watched races where a backmarker grabs hold of a safety kayak after 50m of the swim start to have a breather- that safety kayak is now out of action for everyone else. Its unfair on organisers that their safety plans are thrown askew for the sake of inclusiveness. Plenty of people get upset that their "rights" are being denied them, without any sense of responsibility on their part. Your right to enter a Tri race as a poor swimmer should be lessened by your likely impact on that races' water safety plan.

I heard a perspective on Dublin 70.30 that I'd not heard before. It was from one of the rescue kayakers. I thought I understood how bad some of the swimmers would be and how much danger they put themselves in. Apparently it was much much worse than that.

Oryx

tunney wrote: »

I heard a perspective on Dublin 70.30 that I'd not heard before. It was from one of the rescue kayakers. I thought I understood how bad some of the swimmers would be and how much danger they put themselves in. Apparently it was much much worse than that.

That makes me sad and scared for the sport. If weak swimmers are allowed to swim, there will be a dumbing down of the swim section and the kind of fluorescent bouy nonsense mentioned in this thread.

joey100

As someone who used to do kayak rescue at a few of the sea swims I don't think them floats/buoys are going to help rescuers. To be honest I'm not sure someone in a kayak would notice if someone was in trouble unless it was very obvious, lots of trashing around and screaming, which isn't usually what happens when someone is in real serious difficulty. The kayaks are more like sheep dogs, trying to keep the group together or if someone swims over to one for a break. They make people feel safe but in a big mass start I'm not sure how much safety they actually provide.

Kurt_Godel

Seems there were underlying issues with this man- "a postmortem examination had given the cause of death as immersion, with epilepsy being a contributing factor."

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/maidstone/news/inquest-into-triathletes-death-to-42691/

Grassey

20rothmans wrote: »

Ideally good cover on the water will mean anyone in trouble will be spotted as it happens.

As someone who has done a lot of kayak rescue over the years for various swims I'd like to point out that it is not as easy to spot problems as you'd think.

In a mass start all you see is hundreds of stroking arms, trying to pick a single person out of that who is in trouble is next to impossible. Once everybody spreads out its a bit easier. The kayaks are only effective to get to a visible swimmer in distress (thrashing, shouting, hand up etc) to give them a large float to hold onto until either they swim on or the rib can maneuver into them. If someone was floating face down sure the kayaker could get to them once spotted and support them above water until rib arrives, but if anyone goes underwater the kayaker is useless as they can only reach about a hand depth underwater before they tip themselves under.

A number of kayak support on these events are under prepared also(not suggesting it in this instance), most are recreational kayaks helping out on request to an event in the local area, some won't have first aid knowledge and some have the wrong equipment to be effective in getting to distressed swimmers rapidly. At worst they can be a placebo and a large number can give the impression of an effective safety plan.

sconhome

As was suggested to me if someone has a heart attack in the water there is nothing to alert safety crews of what is happening. Someone panicing will be easy to spot cos they will panic and thrash about. Someone actually drowning is very hard to spot and even harder to spot from the perspective of a kayak.

I've shared this before http://www.rd.com/advice/parenting/8-quiet-signs-of-someone-drowning/

1. They can’t call for help—she has to be able to breathe before she can speak. When a person is drowning, her mouth sinks below and reappears above the surface of the water. There isn’t time for her to exhale, inhale, and call out.

2. They can’t wave for help either. A drowning person instinctively extends her arms to the sides and presses down to lift her mouth out of the water; a child may extend her arms forward. She can’t use her arms to move toward a rescuer or reach for rescue equipment.

3. They remain upright in the water, with no evidence of kicking. She can struggle for only 20 to 60 seconds before going under.

4. Their eyes are glassy, unable to focus, or closed.

5. Their face may be hard to see; hair may be over forehead or eyes.

6. Their Head is low in the water, with mouth at water level; head may be tilted back with mouth open. A child’s head may fall forward.

7. They are quiet. Children playing in the water make noise. When they get quiet, you need to get to them and find out why.

8. They don’t seem in distress. Sometimes the most important indicator that someone is drowning is that she doesn’t look like she’s drowning. She may just seem to be looking up at the sky, shore, pool deck, or dock. Ask her, “Are you all right?” If she can answer at all, she probably is. If she returns a blank stare, you may have less than 30 seconds to get to her.

It is from the perspective of minding children but the rules of drowning apply across the board.

As mentioned previously the safety buoys are not going to save you, they are not a floatation device. If you swim alone or in a small group they will keep your gear dray and make you visible to other water users. In a big event they will make it easier to find you and may stop your body from drifting away.

Kurt_Godel

More on this story

The organisers had greater safety cover than was required. What stands out for me is the kayaks beside poor swimmers who required to be taken out of a lake sprint in good conditions. That's several sets of eyes and hands that could have been put to better use for water safety.

Linda said her son “wanted to do and see as much as he could”.

But, speaking of the fateful day itself, Linda revealed it was the family, not triathlon organisers, who raised the alarm that her son had not emerged from the lake.

She was watching the race at Leybourne Lakes in Larkfield with Paul’s dad Malcolm and her son’s girlfriend Hayley Wright.

She said: “There were a few stragglers coming back.

The safety boats had been out there but they thought that was it, they were saying ‘that’s everyone’ but we realised Paul hadn’t come back. We said to them ‘no, there’s someone else’ and it went from there.”

Linda said her son’s lone bike, standing ready for the next leg of the triathlon, proved he was missing.

She continued: “They hoped he had swum to the edge and climbed out.

They started searching. The club’s divers immediately put on their suits and got in but when the police arrived with Kent Search and Rescue (KSAR) they took over.”

His family faced an agonising three-day wait before Paul’s body was discovered on Bank Holiday Monday morning but despite his death, the family are reluctant to criticise triathlon organisers.

Malcolm said: “They had kayaks everywhere. A few swimmers had kayaks next to them and they pulled two people out. The organisers were shocked. Nothing like that has ever happened at one of their events before.”

Alan Davis from Ocean Lake Triathlon said there were seven canoes and a two-crew safety boat on the water – the British Triathlon Federation specifies four canoes and a boat are needed for an event that size.

He said organisers noticed Paul’s bike at “more or less” the same time Linda was telling their colleague her son was missing.

tunney

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

More on this story

The organisers had greater safety cover than was required. What stands out for me is the kayaks beside poor swimmers who required to be taken out of a lake sprint in good conditions. That's several sets of eyes and hands that could have been put to better use for water safety.

So basically you are saying that the presence of underprepared swimmers could contribute to the deaths of capable swimmers who suffer knocks or episodes?

Kurt_Godel

tunney wrote: »

So basically you are saying that the presence of underprepared swimmers could contribute to the deaths of capable swimmers who suffer knocks or episodes?

Bearing in mind what the kayakers wrote upthread, safety boats and kayaks still have a large part to play in water safety, and in assisting people who get into difficulty. Someone suffering a fit or seizure has less chance of being spotted by a safety kayak that is taken out by a novice swimmer clinging to it after 50m.

Yes I think it is dangerous to allow underprepared swimmers into OW races. Thats what makes the Fjord race overreaction all the more galling: to use this tragedy as a "safety" reason to up the cost for spurious tow floats. Now that the real reason for the tragedy is known, will they show genuine safety concern by limiting their race to experienced swimmers? By increasing the amount of kayaks on the day? Money flows one way.

griffin100

Reading this makes me think of some of the comments in this thread - http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057487242

tunney

griffin100 wrote: »

Reading this makes me think of some of the comments in this thread - http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057487242

"1st time to ever do an open water swim. Jeez I'm so so nervous. "

"OMG I had a MARE at the start. Completely panicked. Sensory overload and couldnt breath so called a safety guy over. "


Think that covers it really.
Cue the second year experts calling me elitist "everyone starts somewhere". Yes. In training.

ToTriOrNot

tunney wrote: »

"1st time to ever do an open water swim. Jeez I'm so so nervous. "

"OMG I had a MARE at the start. Completely panicked. Sensory overload and couldnt breath so called a safety guy over. "


Think that covers it really.
Cue the second year experts calling me elitist "everyone starts somewhere". Yes. In training.

I have been (open water) swimming since May 2014 (had a few other attempts but life got busy and they were parked!) ...I have completed up to 7km in open water (mind you it was a lake/river), 5km in the sea around Garnish Island, and I would still not call myself an expert. Yes I am surrounded by experts, and I take their advice. Never swim alone is the first one that comes to mind. Plenty of people around me have started to wear the donught type tow float by chillswim as an extra visibility aid, and in long training sessions, it's a good idea, specially to carry your keys and a fed, but not as a safety measure. Unfortunately it''s very sad what happened to this lad, but he had epilepsy (fair enough he had not attacks in ten years) but I though you have to tell organizers of any medical conditions that might increase your risks??? I do agree that a swim ability cert would be a great idea, very difficult to coordinate with the amount of ODL (I would be one of them users!) , the amount of people not close to the sea, willing to spent time or money on their own safety. One of the local clubs here organizes open water swimming sessions open to anyone, so people thinking of doing their event can get familiar with the water beforehand. having been in one of their sessions recently, with someone new to open water, i can say it's invaluable experience. big difference for me, I said water was lovely, felt calm, he said, it was freezing, he couldn't put the head in the water. his second time felt better, and hopefully he will have a few more opportunities to do this before the event in a couple of weeks!

but yeah tunney, you might be an elitist in some aspects, but in here you are right! Open water and pool swimming are very different!

rooneyjm

I was watching highlights of the Cardiff Tri yesterday and they were interviewing some punter. He says "I booked it online and didnt know the difference between a sprint and an Olympic, so ended up booking the Olympic." Then he laughs and waddles off to the swim.

JohnBee

rooneyjm wrote: »

I was watching highlights of the Cardiff Tri yesterday and they were interviewing some punter. He says "I booked it online and didnt know the difference between a sprint and an Olympic, so ended up booking the Olympic." Then he laughs and waddles off to the swim.

This sums it up. I love the increased participation in triathlon, entering races with a big crowd is so much more fun. However, for many entrants, completing a triathlon is a story to tell the mates down the pub, equivalent to the 5km or 10km fun run.

Back when it was a niche sport, only those who genuinely had the fitness to complete the swim safely entered. Now safety is compromised. Surely the time has come for a swim certificate prior to a race, or obviously a previous satisfactory race result.

peter kern

What is better one dead person that enters a race or 3000 that die of modern world I desases because they don't get their backside up?
In the bigger picture the more people participate in sport health costs will go down

JohnBee wrote: »

This sums it up. I love the increased participation in triathlon, entering races with a big crowd is so much more fun. However, for many entrants, completing a triathlon is a story to tell the mates down the pub, equivalent to the 5km or 10km fun run.

Back when it was a niche sport, only those who genuinely had the fitness to complete the swim safely entered. Now safety is compromised. Surely the time has come for a swim certificate prior to a race, or obviously a previous satisfactory race result.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

What is better one dead person that enters a race or 3000 that die of modern world I desases because they don't get their backside up?
In the bigger picture the more people participate in sport health costs will go down

Not convinced. Look around at the next 10km or triathlon that you are at. Play guess the BMI. Then come back to me on healthy. Some use a little bit of sport to justify a lifestyle of total excess.