Transport Operators want peak-time Free Travel restricted

Jamie2k9

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/peak-time-restrictions-sought-on-free-travel-scheme-1.2334418

State transport providers have privately sought the introduction of rush-hour travel restrictions for holders of free travel passes as part of a review of the scheme.

A Government working group is reviewing the future of the free scheme, which allows up to 1.2 million people – or 25 per cent of the population – to travel for free on public and some private transport.

Despite rising passenger numbers, funding of €77 million for the scheme has been frozen at the same level for the past five years.

About time they demanded it....suspect it will won't happen short term but more funding will be allocated coming up to the election...

Gatling

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/peak-time-restrictions-sought-on-free-travel-scheme-1.2334418



About time they demanded it....suspect it will won't happen short term but more funding will be allocated coming up to the election...

"Sources familiar with the review of the scheme say some State transport providers support a reintroduction of restrictions which would allow them to raise additional revenue."

"“Having fully protected the free travel scheme during difficult budgets, and now that there is room for investment in services generally, the free travel scheme will be protected and not be undermined in any way,” the spokesman said."

Won't happen going by the two paragraphs I posted from the article and can't see a restriction from the 60's or 70's been reimposed at all

Jamie2k9

Gatling wrote: »

"Sources familiar with the review of the scheme say some State transport providers support a reintroduction of restrictions which would allow them to raise additional revenue."

"“Having fully protected the free travel scheme during difficult budgets, and now that there is room for investment in services generally, the free travel scheme will be protected and not be undermined in any way,” the spokesman said."

Won't happen going by the two paragraphs I posted from the article and can't see a restriction from the 60's or 70's been reimposed at all

Yes but more funding will be given and I expect that will do them. This is the first time operators have spoken up about it well CIE ones any way.

Gatling

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This is the first time operators have spoken up about it well CIE ones any way.

They have been saying it for the last 4+ years .
Most of the other operators are only accepting ftps recently compared to cie /ir

Peppa Pig

How does a private operator get paid for someone using the ftp? Is it an annual payment or per journey?

hmmm

1.2 million people have "free" travel. It's unreal.

coylemj

One thing the politicians know for sure - give the older people something and you take it back at your peril. When Charlie McCreevey was Minister for Finance and running out of ideas about how to spend the budget surplus, he announced that everyone over 70 could have a medical card. A few years later after the crash there was uproar when the Govt. said they would reintroduce a means test for it. They have since gone half way and given them free doctor visit cards.

Voter turnout among the older population is very high, they have long memories and are not to be messed with.

L1011

Peppa Pig wrote: »

How does a private operator get paid for someone using the ftp? Is it an annual payment or per journey?

Annual payment. I suspect with the smartcards that could change - if they find some services being used rarely anyway

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Infini

To be honest its not the Old People that should be restricted they're all legitimate of course its the REST (ie. Junkies, Unemployed, Supposedlydisabledbutnotactuallydisabled) that need to be restricted. Its the latter group that in recent years that has exploded in terms of pass numbers and at this point you cant be suprised that they'd want some restrictions imposed expecially since it was originally restricted in the 1st place and was done away with via political interference.

punisher5112

Infini2 wrote: »

To be honest its not the Old People that should be restricted they're all legitimate of course its the REST (ie. Junkies, Unemployed, Supposedlydisabledbutnotactuallydisabled) that need to be restricted. Its the latter group that in recent years that has exploded in terms of pass numbers and at this point you cant be suprised that they'd want some restrictions imposed expecially since it was originally restricted in the 1st place and was done away with via political interference.

I thought with the new passes things would get a bit better but what needs to happen is actuall proper checks such as revenue/social welfare actually going out and checking buses and trains to weed out the genuine from the ones that are working but still holding passes.

I come across many and have found a lot of older people using the spouse pass to bring along a mate.

This is only a recent thing and also happening with new pass as they seem to think the 2 on paper pass means ah sure I can bring anyone with me.

It would be a very good idea for restriction on non pensioners but will anyone in our government have the back bone to actually implement something that would make sense.

The problem I can see coming up is oh the poor addicts need the pass to get in to get their free methadone and then proceed to wander around the city screaming, shouting, pi##Ing, sh##Ing and fighting. Its a lot like the walking dead. oh and shooting up anywhere they like and also openly dealing as I see numerous times a day.


I have to deal with them every day and the worst is especially being a passenger on train or bus and then having to put up with all their crap while they go home or whatever.

Carawaystick

punisher5112 wrote: »

I have to deal with them every day and the worst is especially being a passenger on train or bus and then having to put up with all their crap while they go home or whatever.

So you'ld have no problem with a methadone/treatment centre setting up beside where you live, to reduce the need for patients to travel?

cdebru

Carawaystick wrote: »

So you'ld have no problem with a methadone/treatment centre setting up beside where you live, to reduce the need for patients to travel?

So they only use it to travel to and from the methadone clinic ?

punisher5112

Carawaystick wrote: »

So you'ld have no problem with a methadone/treatment centre setting up beside where you live, to reduce the need for patients to travel?

What does this post even mean.

Plenty of space and places there can be treatment centres where it would affect bvery few in such cases not have one in a built up or residential area.

Where in my post did I say anything of the sort to get your reply.

Do you work with them or travel with them?//

end of the road

punisher5112 wrote: »

I thought with the new passes things would get a bit better but what needs to happen is actuall proper checks such as revenue/social welfare actually going out and checking buses and trains to weed out the genuine from the ones that are working but still holding passes.

I come across many and have found a lot of older people using the spouse pass to bring along a mate.

This is only a recent thing and also happening with new pass as they seem to think the 2 on paper pass means ah sure I can bring anyone with me.

It would be a very good idea for restriction on non pensioners but will anyone in our government have the back bone to actually implement something that would make sense.

The problem I can see coming up is oh the poor addicts need the pass to get in to get their free methadone and then proceed to wander around the city screaming, shouting, pi##Ing, sh##Ing and fighting. Its a lot like the walking dead. oh and shooting up anywhere they like and also openly dealing as I see numerous times a day.


I have to deal with them every day and the worst is especially being a passenger on train or bus and then having to put up with all their crap while they go home or whatever.

the other side to the argument is that if you restrict the passes for these people rates of muggings may increase. i'm not suggesting that would or wouldn't be the case but i can see why some may believe it.

Wild Garlic

end of the road wrote: »

the other side to the argument is that if you restrict the passes for these people rates of muggings may increase. i'm not suggesting that would or wouldn't be the case but i can see why some may believe it.

If you are not suggesting it why bother even mentioning it? You are at best implying it.

Gatling

And people wonder they these threads never work out

end of the road

Wild Garlic wrote: »

If you are not suggesting it why bother even mentioning it? You are at best implying it.

what are you on about. i stated it was the other side of the argument, and that i wasn't sure i agreed with it. read it again, its very clear

devnull

What you're saying, is like saying "I know a lot of people think he is incompetent, but I couldn't possibly comment."

Wild Garlic

end of the road wrote: »

what are you on about. i stated it was the other side of the argument, and that i wasn't sure i agreed with it. read it again, its very clear

Ok I read it again and I stand by what I said.
Let me give you another example of what you did;
A lot of people(not me) have expressed an opinion that you are an idiot. I however am not saying that I agree or disagree with those sentiments. (Hypothetical of course)
Now if someone was to make a comment like that would you not think that someone was implying that you were an idiot, I know I would.

tabbey

Many of the people with free travel on medical / disability grounds, have a genuine mental illness or intellectual disability, and are decent people deserving of free travel. There is however, a very visible and audible minority who make life miserable for fare paying passengers. Many of these have their status because their doctors feel, rightly or wrongly, intimidated. These antisocial elements should be challenged by the authorities, and have their travel perks withdrawn for bad behaviour. I accept that some will then travel illegally, as these individuals expect society to provide all their needs and wants, but unless the system stands up to them, they will continue to make public transport less attractive, with negative effects to fare revenue.

newacc2015

I wish they would introduce time restrictions on DART, Dublin Bus and Luas services. Its ridiculous a FT holder can be on congested Luas for free, while everyone is trying to get it to work. Its not reasonable to expect them to use it between off peak hours.

I find it ridiculous how over priced student travel is here compared to Germany or France. A semester ticket in a German College city is about €60 for a term. Thats 3 weeks on Dublin Bus with student capping. I cant understand how all the BS language schools(the work Visa Factories) students are allowed to get Student tickets, when only official third level institutions in Germany are allowed them

dfx-

Here might be a solution than the haranguing of disability and addicts and over 60s ---> it could be just funded instead of costly fleet replacements.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

Here might be a solution than the haranguing of disability and addicts and over 60s ---> it could be just funded instead of costly fleet replacements.

Given that a 12 year life cycle is the industry norm for replacing bus fleets, I don't really see changing that as an option.

Having a modern fleet is something that is necessary to attract new customers.

Add to that the fact that it comes from a completely different budget.

dfx-

Industry norm is something that can and has been extended when required. Could/should be done again. Is the 12 years figure an arbitrary value or what is it based on?

Either way, a modern fleet is very much secondary to the dignity of old people not being means tested or deciding whether someone is 'really disabled enough' to warrant free travel.

It seems we're happy to splash hundreds of millions of euro, government money, on new buses yet means test 60 year olds to board them.

Amalgam

You'd get feedback/pressure from traders too, no doubt. Places like Dún Laoghaire, South County Dublin, would be worse than they are if free travel pass users were discouraged from going out and about.. I'm quite sure you'd see a ripple countrywide, in daytime spending.

charlietheminxx

While I agree there are plenty of people who abuse free travel, I have a sister with intellectual disabilities who available of a free travel pass. She attends a prosper training centre 5 days a week and travels at a peak time (8.30am) to get there. Her training centre is her lifeline to the world, it provides her with the opportunity to learn new skills and is the focal point of her social life. Why should she be restricted from getting where she needs to go? The problem here is more about allocation of unnecessary free travel passes.

For what it's worth, while its a little bit off topic, I don't think there should be methadone clinics anywhere. Methadone should be dispensed by the addicted persons local GP. Takes centralisation out of it completely.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

Industry norm is something that can and has been extended when required. Could/should be done again. Is the 12 years figure an arbitrary value or what is it based on?

Either way, a modern fleet is very much secondary to the dignity of old people not being means tested or deciding whether someone is 'really disabled enough' to warrant free travel.

It seems we're happy to splash hundreds of millions of euro, government money, on new buses yet means test 60 year olds to board them.

I would argue that is a completely different issue - as I said they come from different budgets.

Having a modern fleet is one key aspect of potentially getting people out of their cars.

As for means testing 60 year olds, I suspect no government would have the courage to do that as it would mean political suicide.

devnull

charlietheminxx wrote: »

For what it's worth, while its a little bit off topic, I don't think there should be methadone clinics anywhere. Methadone should be dispensed by the addicted persons local GP. Takes centralisation out of it completely.

I know a GP who used to do exactly that.

The local community protested, about having a doctor who prescribes it in their neighbourhood and said it wshould be done in clinics, not in residential areas.

Can't win.

dfx-

lxflyer wrote: »

I would argue that is a completely different issue - as I said they come from different budgets.

Having a modern fleet is one key aspect of potentially getting people out of their cars.

As for means testing 60 year olds, I suspect no government would have the courage to do that as it would mean political suicide.

Different (related) budgets, same source - Dept of Finance, no?

Department of Finance to give more money to Social Welfare, give less to Department of Transport. Declare increase funding of the scheme.

In the run-up to an election, it's remarkable how money is found..

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

Different (related) budgets, same source, no?

Department of Finance to give more money to Social Welfare, give less to Department of Transport. Declare increase funding of the scheme.

In the run-up to an election, it's remarkable how money is found..

That's not how government budgets work.

They are strictly by department and if one department loses money they may take years to get it back.

Something else in DSP would have to give here.

Really, I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.

A modern bus fleet is not a luxury, it's a necessity to entice people out of their cars.

StreetLight

lxflyer wrote: »

That's not how government budgets work.

No, but it's how politics works.

foggy_lad

It seems every few weeks one of these anti-free travel threads appears and the attitudes and opinions expressed are often scary and make me think that Ireland is becoming an increasingly fascist society.

Those people who appear and are described as Junkies or "The Living Dead" are above all "Human"! They are someone's brother, sister, mother, father uncle aunt or just friend/neighbour.

Many are people who have serious underlying mental illnesses and get involved in swapping their medication or taking heroin or other drugs to alleviate symptoms of their condition.

Many of these people suffer from really catastrophic brain injuries after crashes and accidents that we as relatively able bodied people can't even imagine. Many have to be thought to walk and talk again and unfortunately lack of funding means that most do not get the level of social re/training to help them act appropriately in public. Their physical rehabilitation takes precedence and they are then passed over to the mental health services where their problems really start!

I personally know two of these young men who were both in car crashes and both survived with visibly minor injuries but they both wish that they had been killed outright because their lives as they knew ended in the crashes.

Both of them had life changing brain injuries and their personalities and everything else about them has changed. They would see nothing wrong with urinating in public or in a corner on a train or tram because they see that act differently to how we see it, we think "oh no I can't do that" but they think "I need to go now".

There is no malice in their actions, they are not doing what they do to annoy anyone or because they feel entitled but the way they behave in public is totally different to how they used to be and they now act on their needs without thinking because part of their brain is damaged.

Should these people be locked away for the rest of their days? that would cost a lot more than giving them free travel and letting them out and about which usually has long term rehabilitate effects on them. Some of them can be described as Junkies but in many cases they are taking drugs because they have been failed by our health services and especially our not fit for purpose mental health services!

Hilly Bill

They should have carers with them in that scenario. I can't see the time restrictions working to be honest.

Jesus Wept

Infini2 wrote: »

To be honest its not the Old People that should be restricted they're all legitimate of course its the REST (ie. Junkies, Unemployed, Supposedlydisabledbutnotactuallydisabled) that need to be restricted. Its the latter group that in recent years that has exploded in terms of pass numbers and at this point you cant be suprised that they'd want some restrictions imposed expecially since it was originally restricted in the 1st place and was done away with via political interference.

Any evidence that people get free travel on the basis of being unemployed?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They should have carers with them in that scenario. I can't see the time restrictions working to be honest.

And you and others won't be whinging about the added cost of all those carers hours and free travel for the carers too!

Most only get a very small fraction of the personal assistant/home help/carers hours that they should have, this is why they look dirty and unkempt and often look like they had a fit while dressing themselves.

They have great difficulty doing the basics like washing or dressing and they get no help from the HSE.

Je suis Mario wrote: »

Any evidence that people get free travel on the basis of being unemployed?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

No evidence at all! also no person gets free travel because they are a junkie or addict.

Hilly Bill

Foggy, i couldn't give a fiddlers who gets what and i only said that if someone thinks nothing of urinating on a train because of a disability then that person shouldn't be travelling on their own.

hmmm

Commuter buses are already miserable enough for those of us paying for this "free travel" gravy train, without putting off fleet replacements to help pay for it all. You can drive away everyone who is paying actual money for this service, but don't come back afterwards wondering why services are cut as a consequence. 1.2 million people with free travel is mind-blowing, absolutely mind-blowing - I've no problem with people with real disabilities getting free travel, but you're not going to convince me that a third of the population can justify having everyone else pay for their travel.

And the "dignity" of avoiding means testing? How do you justify someone on minimum wage having to pay for the bus, but some rich retired pensioner can complain about being upset about the "indignity" of being asked to pay something towards their travel? They've no problem with the "indignity" of waving around their free travel passes.

end of the road

newacc2015 wrote: »

I wish they would introduce time restrictions on DART, Dublin Bus and Luas services. Its ridiculous a FT holder can be on congested Luas for free, while everyone is trying to get it to work. Its not reasonable to expect them to use it between off peak hours.

there would be no point in implementing such restriction.

newacc2015 wrote: »

I find it ridiculous how over priced student travel is here compared to Germany or France. A semester ticket in a German College city is about €60 for a term. Thats 3 weeks on Dublin Bus with student capping.

it all comes down to funding and subsidy.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

I know a GP who used to do exactly that.

The local community protested, about having a doctor who prescribes it in their neighbourhood and said it wshould be done in clinics, not in residential areas.

Can't win.

that wouldn't be an issue if backing was given to gps by government to do it. the community would have no choice but to except it as any nonsense would be stoped hard.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

Commuter buses are already miserable enough for those of us paying for this "free travel" gravy train, without putting off fleet replacements to help pay for it all. You can drive away everyone who is paying actual money for this service, but don't come back afterwards wondering why services are cut as a consequence. 1.2 million people with free travel is mind-blowing, absolutely mind-blowing - I've no problem with people with real disabilities getting free travel, but you're not going to convince me that a third of the population can justify having everyone else pay for their travel.

And the "dignity" of avoiding means testing? How do you justify someone on minimum wage having to pay for the bus, but some rich retired pensioner can complain about being upset about the "indignity" of being asked to pay something towards their travel? They've no problem with the "indignity" of waving around their free travel passes.

that rich pensioner would have payed a huge amount of tax for a long time. they more then earned their pass. i suppose when you get to 65/66 you won't apply for it, or if automatically received you will hand it back?

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

that rich pensioner would have payed a huge amount of tax for a long time. they more then earned their pass. i suppose when you get to 65/66 you won't apply for it, or if automatically received you will hand it back?

This is the generation where a small number of workers payed massive taxes, who spent all the tax money collected on themselves, who left a crumbling and antiquated infrastructure which has had to be repaired with borrowed money, and who didn't bother providing for their pensions and are expecting younger workers to now pay for their retirements (while pulling the drawbridge up behind them)? Spare me.

Where is the fairness in spending our tax money giving pensioners free travel while a minimum wage worker has to pay?

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

that wouldn't be an issue if backing was given to gps by government to do it. the community would have no choice but to except it as any nonsense would be stoped hard.

Doctors have often complained that they are professionals and they can't turn away people just because they have an addiction etc, but generally residents don't care about that.

The way they see it is that they don't want a doctor to prescribe it in their area, because it invites local addicts to it, and they are worried about their kids safety if they find needles etc.

There have been campaigns to boycott GP's who see such patients, regardless of what the government does, the GP will go out of business quite fast.

The fact is with Methadone clinics it's pretty much everyone wants them everywhere apart from near them, typical NIMBY-ism.

munchkin_utd

hmmm wrote: »

<snip>
Where is the fairness in spending our tax money giving pensioners free travel while a minimum wage worker has to pay?

in one sence, its unfair, but in another, the minumum wage worker gets health and goddamn everything else without having to pay a cent of tax, so paying for the bus could be considered the flipside of getting away with the most generous tax system in the western world for low paid workers.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

This is the generation where a small number of workers payed massive taxes, who spent all the tax money collected on themselves, who left a crumbling and antiquated infrastructure which has had to be repaired with borrowed money, and who didn't bother providing for their pensions and are expecting younger workers to now pay for their retirements (while pulling the drawbridge up behind them)? Spare me.

no, not spare you. you think all these rich pensioners were politicians? wrong. some of them worked as managers, and other jobs which payed a good wage. they payed a large amount of tax on that wage, and the governments decided not to spend it on the infrastructure. no drawbridge was pulled up. now, when you get to 65/66 will you take up the pass or hand it back?

hmmm wrote: »

Where is the fairness in spending our tax money giving pensioners free travel while a minimum wage worker has to pay?

fairness doesn't come into it. the government decided that certain sections of society are entitled to free travel. the pensioners are one such section, and they earned it.

end of the road

a

devnull wrote: »

Doctors have often complained that they are professionals and they can't turn away people just because they have an addiction etc, but generally residents don't care about that.

The way they see it is that they don't want a doctor to prescribe it in their area, because it invites local addicts to it, and they are worried about their kids safety if they find needles etc.

There have been campaigns to boycott GP's who see such patients, regardless of what the government does, the GP will go out of business quite fast.

The fact is with Methadone clinics it's pretty much everyone wants them everywhere apart from near them, typical NIMBY-ism.

which is why
1. if a gp is put out of business, residents will be unable to register with another one (they will be left without)
2. a clinnic will be built in the area and if interfered with will be met by a hard responce by the authorities.

anything can be done with will and a government determined to implement this.

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

now, when you get to 65/66 will you take up the pass or hand it back?

I don't believe that any of these unaffordable mass handouts will be available to my generation, so no.

dfx-

end of the road wrote: »

that rich pensioner would have payed a huge amount of tax for a long time. they more then earned their pass. i suppose when you get to 65/66 you won't apply for it, or if automatically received you will hand it back?

that's for the rich pensioners that get the bus. Which would be very few in my experience.

I'd say you'd get a well deserved clip around the ear from them if you told them in person 'you are rich, give back the pass'.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

I don't believe that any of these unaffordable mass handouts will be available to my generation, so no.

so you wouldn't hand it back then. thought so.

Crumbs868

What makes Irish travel pass holders more entitled than their UK counterparts who don't get 24/7 free travel. Irish people are only too quick to point out how great the UK is unless its the other way around.

Same applies to compo payouts, Ireland pays 2x compared to UK and working joe soap picks up the tab for the abusers of the system.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

that's for the rich pensioners that get the bus. Which would be very few in my experience.

I'd say you'd get a well deserved clip around the ear from them if you told them in person 'you are rich, give back the pass'.

A group of pensioners were on the Aircoach from Greystones a few weeks back, on their way to the UAE from T2.

They spent the whole time from Blackrock at least moaning about how they wouldn't be able to afford any more taxes that came in because they were living on the breadline right now.

They were also talking about the free travel pass and how some people seem to begrudge them of it and how it is a lifeline to them.