Jan and Klodi's Party Bus - part II **off topic discussion**

Tenzor07

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You asked if it was a good idea to post it in the Motors Forum. What is the relevance of Dutch infrastructure and the BTW scheme to that?

Is that one question or two?

Where in my original post did I link the pic and the statement about Infra and the CTW?


P.M me to discuss further if you wish.

Weepsie

Tenzor07 wrote: »

It will be an "incitement of ill" from a minority if we moved away from a private car dominant society which we currently have in Ireland..!

But a €2000 yearly allowance for BTW is absurd. A properly maintained bike will last years, sometimes a lifetime. 2 of mine are 10 years + and in great condition. Others here have far older and even better conditioned bikes.

Maybe incentivise keeping bikes serviced and maintained but there are more pressing costs for the state than such an allowance.

Tenzor07

Weepsie wrote: »

Maybe incentivise keeping bikes serviced and maintained but there are more pressing costs for the state than such an allowance.

"There are more pressing costs for the State"

Can you expand on that point pls?

CramCycle

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Hardly excessive in this day and age?
I could spend e2000 on a set of alloys and tyres for the car with that easily..

Depends who you are as to whether it is excessive or not. You could but alot of day to day commuters either cannot or won't. If anything, the scheme should be moved more to push it for all workers. There is no reasonable tax break for low income earners. Maybe have the ability that anyone who earns under a certain amount and avails of the scheme can also apply for a VAT rebate on the bike. I have never spent 2000euro on car wheels but have gotten decent replacements and good tyres for alot, lot less. Not sure what the point was here. You may spend 2000euro on wheels, you do not need it for the car to function adequately for the purpose you intend it for.

Not everyone wants to hang onto a bike for 5 years, esp. a cheapo e1000 and under bike.. most people probably only spend e600 and the rest on helmets/mudguards/jackets etc..

I would love a new bike every year, it does not mean I should have one. The scheme has a specific purpose, as it stands, it fulfills this purpose quite well. 1000euro is not cheap for a bike, in fact I have had many great bikes over the years, and only one has cost over 1000euro. Just because it is cheap to you, does not mean it is cheap to everyone else.

Not everyone wants to cycle a cheap bike to work.. I mean, why does someone need a 171 Audi Q7 to drive to work?

They don't, why don't they sell their 171 Audi, buy a 2000grand bike and buy a decent second hand car if they really need one for alot less. Your missing the point though, why should the state finance an overtly fancy bike. To be honest, if they can afford a 2000euro bike, chances are they can afford a more than adequate bike without the tax break. Some people find it hard to justify the 50euro hit to their wages every month, and these are the people who need to be encouraged.

The main benefit to me was not the tax saving but the ability to spread the cost, this has been the same for most people I work with.

Wishbone Ash

Tenzor07 wrote: »

....Where in my original post did I link the pic and the statement about Infra and the CTW?...

You didn't - however you introduced Dutch infrastructure and the CTW scheme in a reply to my reply which wasn't in any way relevant to your original query about posting in the Motors Forum.

If you wish to discuss cycling infrastructure, fair enough but why use a totally different subject to bring it in?

seamus

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Who speaks like that? "The" helmet and "the" knee pads!

It's such a distinctly Gaelic idiom, I love it. It belies the ancient links between the Scots and the Irish.

It comes from the the way the Gaelic family of languages structure their grammar. When directly translated into English the create weird phrasing like "the helmet and the knee pads". Also things like, "They do be riding around here in all weathers", and responses to question that repeat the verb rather than the affirmative. So "Are you going to the shop?" is answered with, "I am", rather than "Yes".

Weepsie

Tenzor07 wrote: »

"There are more pressing costs for the State"

Can you expand on that point pls?

No, because its absolutely obvious unless you've been living in a hole for the last 20 years

Tenzor07

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

If you wish to discuss cycling infrastructure, fair enough but why use a totally different subject to bring it in?

I didn't and if I did I know what to do..

Tenzor07

Weepsie wrote: »

No, because its absolutely obvious unless you've been living in a hole for the last 20 years

Well, here you go so, something to think about where a minor tax allowance can benefit the state:

cycle-to-work-saving-the-country-72-million-a-year

Skrynesaver

Perhaps expand the scheme to allow replacement parts be bought under it rather than just a new bike, but it wasn't originally intended as a subsidy to club racers

Weepsie

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Well, here you go so, something to think about where a minor tax allowance can benefit the state:

cycle-to-work-saving-the-country-72-million-a-year

€2000 per annum is not a minor tax allowance. That article doesn't suggest an annual allowance either. Their scheme is similar to ours.

Tenzor07

CramCycle wrote: »

The main benefit to me was not the tax saving but the ability to spread the cost, this has been the same for most people I work with.

All valid points of course, my overall point is that the allowance is too low..

It's almost e200 lower than the UK

Also most people spend well under the 1000, making the cost of the bike around say e600

Not everyone gets the option to pay it off by the month either, self employed have to pay the full lump sum upfront...

Weepsie

It isn't too low. You can get plenty of bike for €1000, but it does need to be more inclusive for lower income earners and it needs to be less restrictive (including for self employed) and those third party voucher folk should not be allowed be used as they take a 10% cut.

It's not a scheme to get you to be able to get yourself a brand new racing bike every year, it's to promote commuting by bike

manafana

The whole irish approach to cycling has to be expanded/changed, currently I only cycle part of my commute using the under developed dublin bike scheme.
Crossing the canal one thing is for sure i'd reckon >50% of drivers on the canal could make their journey by other means, but a mix of reasons mean they do it by car. That won't change without a change in the balance of how infrastructure works.

Tenzor07

Weepsie wrote: »

It isn't too low. You can get plenty of bike for ?1000

I will agree to disagree with you!

?1000 is too low, so what if I want to buy an E-Bike for getting to work? Sure a reasonable one would cost double the allowance!

Tenzor07

Weepsie wrote: »

It's not a scheme to get you to be able to get yourself a brand new racing bike every year, it's to promote commuting by bike

I don't want a racing bike, I want an e-bike so I don't arrive to work in a ball of sweat...

CramCycle

Tenzor07 wrote: »

"There are more pressing costs for the State"

Can you expand on that point pls?

Basically when they announce a levy on something else, the first thing that will be dragged out for them to be hanged will be this, particularly if it is something that increases motoring costs.
1000euro is plenty for a decent commuting bike, it may not be enough for some but if they want more, they can pay the extra.
5 years is quite a reasonable time frame for a bike with very little maintenance, every year is just taking the piss.
For a change, the government actually came up with a reasonable scheme, one that was easy to implement, had no drawbacks when you look at reduction in costs to the state. It has had no major complaints and no huge issues and overall will save the state money both in the long and short term.

The only thing that really needs to be looked at is how did they get such a reasonable idea across the line without huge issue and in a functional manner. Then apply that to everything else.

Tenzor07

CramCycle wrote: »

Basically when they announce a levy on something else, the first thing that will be dragged out for them to be hanged will be this, particularly if it is something that increases motoring costs..

Well, I hear a lot of whining about the increase in car insurance, 18yr old first time drivers are being "discriminated" against and are having to go on the parents insurance as an additional drivers..which I'm sure isn't what the additional driver on the policy was meant for...

The UK government is going to create a scheme to trade in your Diesel car for...yes..another car, just "cleaner" http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/762900/Diesel-car-van-scrappage-scheme-2017-new-clean-electric-vehicle-discount-deal

Seems unfair to those who don't drive for economic reasons etc yet there general tax may go to pay for this?

manafana

It is true their are all numbers of tax incentives aimed at drivers. So really everyone has got bit of pie.
For the btw, surely it would be much more efficient to change vat system, while keeping carbon/income levy a change of VAT on bikes might work better. Like this low income earners with little tax to save get the benefit too.

CramCycle

Tenzor07 wrote: »

All valid points of course, my overall point is that the allowance is too low..

It's almost e200 lower than the UK

Also most people spend well under the 1000, making the cost of the bike around say e600

Not everyone gets the option to pay it off by the month either, self employed have to pay the full lump sum upfront...

Weepsie wrote: »

It isn't too low. You can get plenty of bike for ?1000, but it does need to be more inclusive for lower income earners and it needs to be less restrictive (including for self employed) and those third party voucher folk should not be allowed be used as they take a 10% cut.

It's not a scheme to get you to be able to get yourself a brand new racing bike every year, it's to promote commuting by bike

I didn't think self employed people qualified for the scheme at all, but they can make a tax deductible purchase if it is for work purposes the bike was bought (not a tax expert though).

Agree with you about the e-bikes but it still should not be annual. I would very much be in favour of an expansion of the scheme to have a higher allowance for e-bikes and cargo bikes, although I fear that might lead to abuse. This said, it is the first time you have mentioned an e-bike. For regular bicycles, 1000euro is a reasonable limit.

I still completely disagree with your statement on annually, it seems preposterous to even suggest.

Weepsie

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't want a racing bike, I want an e-bike so I don't arrive to work in a ball of sweat...

Take it up with ebike sellers and argue that their prices are too high. Unless you have a specific need, one which an ebike would really benefit, then the allowance is fine as is.

Instead no new workplace/office should be built without bike facilities, shower facilities. Existing places should be encouraged to do the same

Tenzor07

CramCycle wrote: »

I didn't think self employed people qualified for the scheme at all, but they can make a tax deductible purchase if it is for work purposes the bike was bought (not a tax expert though).
Agree with you about the e-bikes but it still should not be annual. I would very much be in favour of an expansion of the scheme to have a higher allowance for e-bikes and cargo bikes, although I fear that might lead to abuse. This said, it is the first time you have mentioned an e-bike. For regular bicycles, 1000euro is a reasonable limit.
I still completely disagree with your statement on annually, it seems preposterous to even suggest.

Well hey, I threw it out there for debate and it looks like that's worked..Maybe not annually but biennially perhaps.

The point about it being too low for a bike is still valid.. an E-Bike is still a bike and would be a more attractive option for a lot of people who have no interest in cycling and wouldn't even consider themselves cyclists, but just want a way to beat the morning traffic.. Hardly fair that they have to stump up an extra e1000 for a basic ebike.

Tenzor07

Weepsie wrote: »

Take it up with ebike sellers and argue that their prices are too high. Unless you have a specific need, one which an ebike would really benefit, then the allowance is fine as is.

I don't think so!

Yes, I want to carry my laptop and clothes to work etc and not arrive half exhausted from all the pedalling...

Fighting Tao

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I don't think so!

Yes, I want to carry my laptop and clothes to work etc and not arrive half exhausted from all the pedalling...

Don't cycle so fast then. The faster and harder you pedal the more you'll sweat. Restrain your pedalling and use the gears so you don't sweat as much.

Tenzor07

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Don't cycle so fast then. The faster and harder you pedal the more you'll sweat. Restrain your pedalling and use the gears so you don't sweat as much.

Nah, i'll drive so, quicker cos i'm not pedalling so fast... :pac:

rubadub

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Perhaps expand the scheme to allow replacement parts be bought under it rather than just a new bike,

Stolen bikes would be a big one to be addressed, I wonder how many bikes bought on the scheme have been stolen before the 5 years was up. Not sure how they could handle bogus claims, maybe you have to officially register with the gardai which I think some already do, and then have to formally declare it stolen etc.

I think its crazy that you cannot buy parts along with the bike. If parts etc were allowed you could possibly buy vouchers in advance "only to be used for consumable parts" listing tyres, chains, cassettes etc.

I am surprised E bikes are not pushed more, as said already a decent one is well over ?1000. Just a week or so ago someone not really into bikes was trying to tell me the limit was increased to ?2k and they did not think that was high (this is the type of person who I would expect to have trotted out the old faithful "jaysus, you could have bought a car with that!" line when told what my bike cost)

Weepsie

Biennally is still too frequent. Even the Netherlands has scrapped their BTW scheme (which was every 3 years) and it was valued at 750. They let companies offer bikes as a bonus though, but that's in lieu of other gifts/benefits employees may receive.

Maybe there could be leasing arrangements for eBikes run between companies and employees however.

Arranging monthly payments over a longer period might also be an idea but I don't necessarily think you should benefit from a higher tax relief because you want to buy a more expensive option.

Tenzor07

rubadub wrote: »

I am surprised E bikes are not pushed more, as said already a decent one is well over ?1000. Just a week or so ago someone not really into bikes was trying to tell me the limit was increased to ?2k and they did not think that was high (this is the type of person who I would expect to have trotted out the old faithful "jaysus, you could have bought a car with that!" line when told what my bike cost)

Ebikes are increasing sales a lot in The Netherlands... and cost a lot more than the average e600 Dutch bike:

http://www.bike-eu.com/sales-trends/nieuws/2016/4/huge-growth-in-dutch-e-bike-sales-in-2015-10126019

Fighting Tao

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Nah, i'll drive so, quicker cos i'm not pedalling so fast... :pac:

You could always try the work header to earn more method in order to afford an e-bike

CramCycle

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Ebikes are increasing sales a lot in The Netherlands... and cost a lot more than the average e600 Dutch bike:

While e bikes are generally more expensive, it is not impossible to pick them up for between 1000 and 2000euro. Easy Motion in Dublin have a range starting at 1000euro. Halfords start at 600euro.